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Why does GA get better seats than everyone else?
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NewSt
Member
Because they paid the extra for them in order to improve passenger comfort, something that First doesn't seem to know a thing about - GWR IETs' Fainsa Sophias and now ironing boards!
cactustwirly
Established Member
Basically they had free reign on the spec, whereas other ToCs are using trains ordered to the DfTs cheap specification.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because Abellio consider it important and are willing to cough up. The seats on LNR's new stock will also be above par - I believe Kiel seats are being used on those.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
First (and later VTEC/LNER) obviously had to take the IEP spec negotiated by the DfT.
First then negotiated the class 802 GWR deal, but were constrained again by the DfT spec as they were on a management contract with all major spend approved by DfT.
The HT/TPE sets are probably run-on orders of essentially the same spec.
Costs will be a consideration for both these operations.
Chances are the upcoming ICWC fleet order will be much the same.
The First Open Access service to Edinburgh might deliver something a bit different, but First Group are not flush with cash.
Abellio had a freer hand with their GA procurement at the time, but apparently have run into financial issues since.
First then negotiated the class 802 GWR deal, but were constrained again by the DfT spec as they were on a management contract with all major spend approved by DfT.
The HT/TPE sets are probably run-on orders of essentially the same spec.
Costs will be a consideration for both these operations.
Chances are the upcoming ICWC fleet order will be much the same.
The First Open Access service to Edinburgh might deliver something a bit different, but First Group are not flush with cash.
Abellio had a freer hand with their GA procurement at the time, but apparently have run into financial issues since.
Are they Kiel seats on the Greater Anglia new stock?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
On the Aventras the 3+2 seating is Kiel. On the Stadlers it's FISA LEAN. Notably, the seats in Standard on the GA Stadlers are good enough for SWR to fit them in First Class on 444s!
I believe on the LNR Aventras it'll be Kiel seats both for 3+2 and 2+2. Not sure what they're using in 1st.
Abellio aren't too bad then
Greater Anglia was a horrid toc for years including those before it
Now it's one of the best once all the
Times are changing
Widespread criticism of the DFT Azumas etc is a national embarrassment
Franchises are under the microscope. If quality defines future output surely ironing boards will be consigned to the history books at a time when trains are vital in getting cars off our choked up roads
Wivenswold
Established Member
Timing was also on GA's side. The Specification came out around the time the 700's were introduced, so comfort was a hot subject.
Ayman Ilham
Member
So why did Northern end up with Fainsa ironing boards on their new trains as well as on some 158s (severe downgrade from what they previously had) despite votes for the new seats? Were the votes rigged by the DfT or something?
43096
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No, they just ignored the results of the vote.
Ayman Ilham
Member
And they keep insisting what they chose is what has been voted for by the people and "very comfortable"; no offence to Northern, but they sounded pretty delusional the way they said it! I'm yet to try a 195 myself though, so I'll reserve my comments about them until I actually get the chance to ride one!
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They have an improved seat contour compared to gtr examples
Ayman Ilham
Member
That alright then, I have heard positive comments regarding the 195s and 331s (more towards the 331 cos there seems to be criticism towards the 195 ride quality, but I'll believe it when I experience it) and the seats do seem to be a bit better than what the 387s and 700s have; I hope the 700 gets a seat replacement to something better (or at least put armrests and tables in standard class like what 387s have) though cos with new direct Cambridge to Brighton services, it would make sense to have the interior spec more suited to long journeys! I am looking to try a 195 to Chester or to Liverpool at some point in the near future!
class387
Established Member
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Fainsa Sophia for 1st I think.
Edit: From this presentation (https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/westm...er-conference-and-tif-slides-april-2019-87333) it appears to be:
DMUs - Fisa Lean
EMUs - Kiel (both 2+2 and 3+2)
1st - Fainsa Sophia
Not brilliant.
Why does first on the longer distance trains have worse seating than the local dmus? Seems strange to me their selection, wonder what the Kiel seats will be like.
I think EMUs just means the Aventras. The FLIRTs are all getting Leans.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They are the contoured version of the seat as used by ScotRail, not the flat version as used by GTR. Having done a number of Class 195 journeys now I would put them as on a par with the Grammer E3000 Desiro seat for actual comfort, though the E3000 (and almost identical FISA LEAN as used by GA on the FLIRTs) wins out slightly by having small "wings" on the headrest to lean against.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It was silly to ask if they weren't going to go with the result, but if they hadn't asked I think it's decent enough a seat.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Ah yes, I forgot. On those ones I'd definitely sit in Standard if I held a 1st ticket.
In all honesty, although ironing boards do receive a lot more criticism than other seats, I've found the ones on 700s and 707s have genuinely softened up to a reasonable standard, they are upright but have adequate lumbar support. I believe with spacers which is what the 701s should be getting, similar to electrostar ironing boards with armrests, they will be adequate and potentially just as comfortable as GAs 3+2 Kiel seats.
The seats on TFLs aventuras appear to have no padding as opposed to just hard, unworn padding which isn't an issue in itself but it means there's no shock absorption meaning you really feel every rattle the train makes.
Overall I think GA have chosen seats with a better shape physically but this doesn't mean they're any softer.
The seats on TFLs aventuras appear to have no padding as opposed to just hard, unworn padding which isn't an issue in itself but it means there's no shock absorption meaning you really feel every rattle the train makes.
Overall I think GA have chosen seats with a better shape physically but this doesn't mean they're any softer.
Many complaints They Are unsuitable on the west highland run
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
195s seem very popular on Northern and I've not heard a complaint about the seats on those. Wasn't the issue on the WHL that they were too high for the tables and so you whacked your knees? This isn't the case on the 195s.
It's true there Are no complaints? Must be on to a winner then
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've heard comments about the consultation on here and them having ignored it, but not about the actual seats. I personally find them far better than Fainsa Sophias in every way - they are less hard and they are a more comfortable shape for me. I'd put them on a par with this Voyager seat wot I'm sat in at the moment - indeed, I think they're a bit wider, so they win in some aspects.
SWRtrain_fan
Member
Agreed, I don't even find ironing board seats that uncomfortable, they're alright imo.
Ayman Ilham
Member
Only Fainsa seats I've been on are the Intercity type "Sophias" on a GWR IEP from Cardiff to Newport (which I presume is similar to the "ironing board" comfort-wise) but I agree with you! They actually weren't as bad as people say they are! I'm yet to try a 195, but I'm spoilt for choice considering my base is Manchester so I could go to Preston, Lancaster, Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford or Chester! The REAL plus side to them is the generous legroom I got in an airline seat on the 800; had an XC 170 the other way from Cardiff beforehand and while the seats are of course more comfortable, the thickness of the seats meant that legroom was compromised considerably!
The ironing boards on Northern 195s and Scotrail trains are much better than on the 700s. The problem with the 700s is the lack of leg room, lack of seat back tables and the lack of spacing between the seats and between the seats and side of the train.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They are also a different seat base which is thicker and more padded than the "flat" ones without affecting legroom (as the back is the same).
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