SWR Strike Action: Strikes every day in December except 1st, 12th, 25th & 26th

samuelmorris · 2 Nov 2019

bb21 said:
RTT cannot tell you that information because the information is not in TRUST.

I was responding to the query about headcodes, not specifically journeycheck information - the member I quoted was confused by the long list of headcodes that had been posted as evidence of which services were cancelled, rather than their time/destination.

RailUK Forums

pompeyfan · 5 Nov 2019

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-announces-27-days-of-strike-action-on-swr/

5 November 2019

RMT Press Office:

Rail union RMT has confirmed that a total of 27 days of strike action will take place in December on South Western Railway after the company dangled a potential breakthrough deal in front of the union and then failed to honour it, offering no reasons for the delay.

The company’s unremitting failure to give assurances that their new operational model won't move to Driver Controlled Operation – with the role of the guard butchered completely – means the union has been left with no alternative but to call further industrial action.

As a result of SWR’s failure to move forwards on an agreement RMT members will take action as follows:

We instruct our Guard, Commercial Guards and Driver members to take the following strike action:-

• Not to book on for duty from 00:01 on Monday 2nd December 2019 until 23:59 on Wednesday 11th December

• Not to book on for duty from 00:01 on Friday 13th December until 23:59 on Tuesday 24th December 2019

• Not to book on duty from 00:01 on Friday 27th December 2019 until 23:59 on the 1st January 2020

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“Our members have been left with no choice but to call a further 27 days of strike action on South Western Railway.

“At the last meeting we held with SWR principles in agreements were made in good faith with the company’s negotiating team and we now feel hugely let down again. As long as the company continues to refuse to give assurances on the future operational role of the guard we will remain in dispute.

“I want to congratulate our members on their continued resolve in their fight for safety and the role of the guard on SWR. It is wholly down to the management side that the core issue of the safety critical competencies and the role of the guard has not been agreed.

“The union remains available for talks.”

Ends

nickswift99 · 5 Nov 2019

What's the logic about working on election day?

What strike pay benefit are the members being paid during this period? It may make for a very unhappy christmas for members and their families.

Bookd · 5 Nov 2019

It seems strange that, with a General Election coming up , that you would expect the unions to support Labour in general and Corbyn in particular.
Both SWR and Royal Mail have called all out strikes which will disrupt the election period and Christmas festivities; this gives a golden opportunity to bring back memories of Callaghan's winter of discontent that made way for Margaret Thatcher - the best election gift that Boris Johnson could wish for.

WA_Driver · 5 Nov 2019

nickswift99 said:
What's the logic about working on election day?

What strike pay benefit are the members being paid during this period? It may make for a very unhappy christmas for members and their families.

Basic months wage

nickswift99 · 5 Nov 2019

WA_Driver said:
Basic months wage

Thanks. For a typical driver, how much of a reduction is that? I assume there's a good chunk of allowances and overtime that would normally be paid.

I think it's helpful to understand how much individual RMT members are willing to sacrifice to put into context the likely turnout should the strike materialise.

ainsworth74 · 5 Nov 2019

nickswift99 said:
Thanks. For a typical driver, how much of a reduction is that? I assume there's a good chunk of allowances and overtime that would normally be paid.

Whilst I'm sure SWR have some drivers who are part of the RMT; I bet 99% of SWRs drivers are in ASLEF so not on strike...

It's the guards who are on strike in the action.

LeylandLen · 5 Nov 2019

In that RMT press release on #483, there is this line at end..
We instruct our Guard, Commercial Guards and Driver members to take the following strike action:-.....(my Bold then gives dates..)

I understand the reasons for the strike. I do not work for SWR but would take objection if I did to use of the word 'instruct'
Personally , I would rather use the word 'ask' .It seems more polite, after all its SWR who pay wages.

Confused52 · 5 Nov 2019

So the RMT intend to strike every day in December other than the one where the public can vote to put their Labour friends in government, what could be nakedly political about that? If this extends to the other disputes it will be clear.

Mag_seven · 5 Nov 2019

Confused52 said:
So the RMT intend to strike every day in December other than the one where the public can vote to put their Labour friends in government, what could be nakedly political about that? If this extends to the other disputes it will be clear.

The RMT are not affiliated to Labour - not that that fact will stop the Tories from capitalising on this action in their election campaign (also completely ignoring the fact that previous DOO strikes have happened under Tory rule).

Twotwo · 5 Nov 2019

Any reason why it's 27 days and not the usual 3 or 5 days? Are they getting desperate?

Confused52 · 5 Nov 2019

Mag_seven said:
The RMT are not affiliated to Labour - not that that fact will stop the Tories from capitalising on this action.

You need to check their charter, if it is a "socialistic government" they are in.

LeylandLen · 5 Nov 2019

Mag_seven said:
The RMT are not affiliated to Labour - not that that fact will stop the Tories from capitalising on this action in their election campaign (also completely ignoring the fact that previous DOO strikes have happened under Tory rule).

I think that the general public and a lot of the newspapers in UK especially the Daily Mail will associate RMT Union and the Labour Party. It will be interesting how it plays out on social media where sadly I know people can be very hurtful and offensive as can be seen from many incidents regarding racism and Brexit.

samuelmorris · 5 Nov 2019

LeylandLen said:
I think that the general public and a lot of the newspapers in UK especially the Daily Mail will associate RMT Union and the Labour Party. It will be interesting how it plays out on social media where I know people can be very hurtful and offensive as can be seen .

People launch into quite the tirade on twitter if there's a 5 minute delay to a given service, so social media reaction to this will inevitably be very hostile towards the union and staff who are members of it. I can't say I'm a fan of it either as I think the duration of the strike is wholly inappropriate but that won't see me take it out on staff. That said, reading things like this does make me very grateful to live in a DOO area where all this has already been dealt with long in the past.

On the assumption this is heading down the same road as Southern, can someone remind me how that was eventually resolved? All the press articles about it seem to be from the industrial action and I've found it a real struggle to find anything about the actual outcome. Presumably it was positive since there isn't still industrial action in that area!

If the issue remains unresolved, do we think it's likely to delay the introduction of the new fleet? (beyond that which has already occurred)

WrongRoad · 5 Nov 2019

Well done the SWR Guards and RMT. Can’t be easy holding 27 days of strikes over the Xmas period and loss of pay.

It appears that SWR management have dithered and seem not to be able to make any kind of decision on door operation over the past 2 years of this franchise. Even if they do get some kind of deal with the Guards that the driver has some control of the doors there will still be the small matter of getting that agreed with A.S.L.E.F and it’s Driver members.

ainsworth74 · 5 Nov 2019

samuelmorris said:
On the assumption this is heading down the same road as Southern, can someone remind me how that was eventually resolved? All the press articles about it seem to be from the industrial action and I've found it a real struggle to find anything about the actual outcome. Presumably it was positive since there isn't still industrial action in that area!

Drivers already had DOO in their contracts (or at least some of them did anyway) and ASLEF gave into the demands to operate more DOO (for suitable remuneration) so DOO was rolled out quite easily as ASLEF eventually went along with it.

HamworthyGoods · 5 Nov 2019

WrongRoad said:
Well done the SWR Guards and RMT. Can’t be easy holding 27 days of strikes over the Xmas period and loss of pay.

It appears that SWR management have dithered and seem not to be able to make any kind of decision on door operation over the past 2 years of this franchise. Even if they do get some kind of deal with the Guards that the driver has some control of the doors there will still be the small matter of getting that agreed with A.S.L.E.F and it’s Driver members.

SWR Drivers have DOO(P) in their T&Cs.

samuelmorris · 5 Nov 2019

ainsworth74 said:
Drivers already had DOO in their contracts (or at least some of them did anyway) and ASLEF gave into the demands to operate more DOO (for suitable remuneration) so DOO was rolled out quite easily as ASLEF eventually went along with it.

Sorry, I don't wish to drag this off-topic further, if there's a succinct explanation among all the heated discussion from back then by all means point me to it.
I remember the ASLEF outcome, but it's the RMT action by the guards I was concerned with, as that seems very similar to what's now happening at SWR? Even if the intended method of working is different and the number of services affected is greater. I can understand how the ASLEF issue was resolved, but what happened about the guards? Were they laid off?

WrongRoad · 5 Nov 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
SWR Drivers have DOO(P) in their T&Cs.

As I’ve been told that was put in over 20 years ago and never been implemented. Possibly still relevant but I can imagine A.S.L.E.F and their lawyers looking into seeing if it’s still applicable when that was done under a different company many years ago.

ainsworth74 · 5 Nov 2019

samuelmorris said:
I remember the ASLEF outcome, but it's the RMT action by the guards I was concerned with, as that seems very similar to what's now happening at SWR? Even if the intended method of working is different and the number of services affected is greater. I can understand how the ASLEF issue was resolved, but what happened about the guards? Were they laid off?

The ASLEF outcome is the answer to your question. Once ASLEF accepted the new method of working then it was rolled out and the guards were no longer required. The strikes continued by the RMT members for a time but they had little impact as the majority of trains were DOO. A number of the guards continued as guards the remainder either had to become the new grade of On Board Supervisor or leave the company.

So the answer to your question is simply that ASLEF accepted the new method of working, it was rolled out rapidly and other than the small number of guards that were retained the remainder either left the company or signed up to the OBS role.

samuelmorris · 5 Nov 2019

ainsworth74 said:
The ASLEF outcome is the answer to your question. Once ASLEF accepted the new method of working then it was rolled out and the guards were no longer required. The strikes continued by the RMT members for a time but they had little impact as the majority of trains were DOO. A number of the guards continued as guards the remainder either had to become the new grade of On Board Supervisor or leave the company.

So the answer to your question is simply that ASLEF accepted the new method of working, it was rolled out rapidly and other than the small number of guards that were retained the remainder either left the company or signed up to the OBS role.

Fair enough - so the distinction here is presumably that a far greater proportion (well, all, but presumably there is not yet any intent to deploy DOO on anything but 701s) of services that are guard-operated. ASLEF aren't currently involved in this until the RMT have had an agreement with the TOC, is that right? It just seems like an inevitable impasse - the TOC will have dug their heels in about requiring DOO to be permissible (even if not the standard method of working) and the RMT will be doing the same from their point of view.

ainsworth74 · 5 Nov 2019

samuelmorris said:
Fair enough - so the distinction here is presumably that a far greater proportion (well, all, but presumably there is not yet any intent to deploy DOO on anything but 701s) of services that are guard-operated. ASLEF aren't currently involved in this until the RMT have had an agreement with the TOC, is that right? It just seems like an inevitable impasse - the TOC will have dug their heels in about requiring DOO to be permissible (even if not the standard method of working) and the RMT will be doing the same from their point of view.

Basically yes. Even if the RMT were to give up tomorrow and say "we'll agree to whatever you want in terms of the doors, safety critical members of staff, etc etc" there will almost certainly still need to be extensive negotiations with ASLEF before they'll ever agree to a revised method of working. But in the meantime there is no agreement with the RMT so it's not even got past the first hurdle. And I think ASLEF's approach, at least to this one, has been "come talk to us when you've got an agreement with the RMT".

Horizon22 · 5 Nov 2019

samuelmorris said:
On the assumption this is heading down the same road as Southern, can someone remind me how that was eventually resolved? All the press articles about it seem to be from the industrial action and I've found it a real struggle to find anything about the actual outcome. Presumably it was positive since there isn't still industrial action in that area!

If the issue remains unresolved, do we think it's likely to delay the introduction of the new fleet? (beyond that which has already occurred)

ASLEF accepted a deal with a significant pay rise.OBS to be rostered on every train that previously had a conductor. In severe disruption (CSL2) and under certain circumstances (OBS joining down the line) trains can run.

I expect this actually to be less severe than some expect; if SWR do what Southern did, literally every manager or head office staff that can walk and read correctly will be trained as contingency.

Gems · 5 Nov 2019

Brutal number of strike days. I'll have to contribute a few hundred to the strike fund.

However it's sad that all the RMT bashers are out again. I mean we had all this with Northern, and the Northern dispute is all but settled. Rather interesting that on the 331 I had the other day, the ASDO system failed no fewer than 8 times at different locations. That's not including the stations it has to be automatically overridden anyhow. Now where would we be with no guard? I'll tell you shall I, cancelled trains and a whole heap of bad publicity about failed new stock.

Darandio · 5 Nov 2019

Gems said:
However it's sad that all the RMT bashers are out again.

You'll see plenty of them on Twitter, it's quite the backlash. But the RMT have just announced 27 days of strikes, many of these people commenting are commuters, do you really expect them to just bend over and take it?

samuelmorris · 5 Nov 2019

ainsworth74 said:
But in the meantime there is no agreement with the RMT so it's not even got past the first hurdle. And I think ASLEF's approach, at least to this one, has been "come talk to us when you've got an agreement with the RMT".

Sure, that's pretty much what I was getting at - ASLEF basically aren't getting involved until the RMT have an agreement, which by the sound of things, could well be never unless the TOC (and I presume to some degree the DfT?) capitulate. I'm therefore wondering if any real progress will be made unless ASLEF do decide to get involved.

Gems said:
I'll tell you shall I, cancelled trains and a whole heap of bad publicity about failed new stock.

Both of which that TOC already has in abundance. I agree that having a guard makes that difficult situation rather easier, but those issues should not be there in the first place.

Ethano92 · 5 Nov 2019

Sorry if I'm behind

The company’s unremitting failure to give assurances that their new operational model won't move to Driver Controlled Operation – with the role of the guard butchered completely – means the union has been left with no alternative but to call further industrial action.

What method exactly is SWR looking at. Have they made driver open, guard close their favourable choice? Has SWR still not moved away from "we promise to roster..." This would 'explain' RMTs problem I suppose.

Are RMT against DOO specifically, or against DCO with OBS, isn't this the case on Southern. Finally why specifically are they against any of these. Does 'butchered' refer purely to avoid lay offs or for the role to change at all (i.e Guard to OBS)?

I just feel bad for all the people who have no choice to continue going about their lives but now have a month of reduced services all for a few buttons to open and close the doors.

Gems · 5 Nov 2019

Darandio said:
You'll see plenty of them on Twitter, it's quite the backlash. But the RMT have just announced 27 days of strikes, many of these people commenting are commuters, do you really expect them to just bend over and take it?

Yeah. I remember the days when people fought like lunatics for their working rights. These days we throw them away cheaply and criticise those who refuse to do so.

yorkie · 5 Nov 2019

Gems said:
Yeah. I remember the days when people fought like lunatics for their working rights. These days we throw them away cheaply and criticise those who refuse to do so.

What workers rights are being thrown away? Who is criticising who, and for what?

nedchester · 5 Nov 2019

The timing is very poor due to the impending General Election. SWR, WMT along with the Postal Workers all threatening to strike and you can guarantee the right wing press will capitalise on it.

Some of us remember what the Winter of Discontent led to.

If the Tories get in with a majority in December they will be up for a fight with the RMT.........remember the miners........

SWR Strike Action: Strikes every day in December except 1st, 12th, 25th & 26th

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Forum Staff

Established Member