SWR Longest Strike - December 2019

pompeyfan · 2 Jan 2020

December 12th could and should have been used by managers to conduct assessments, but they can take anywhere from 3-6 hours for a full competency assessment.

if I recall correctly there’s a grey area over SWR DOO, in that if there’s something in your contract that’s not been implemented in the 20 years the contract has been around for, it effectively stops being part of the contract. I think there’s also a misrepresentation, in that they are contracted for DOO but not dispatch/door controls etc. Both the above points could be wrong as they’re based on Messroom chat.

finally, if I recall correctly, the GatEx test case was more a gentleman’s written agreement that GTR tore up overnight.

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infobleep · 2 Jan 2020

pompeyfan said:
December 12th could and should have been used by managers to conduct assessments, but they can take anywhere from 3-6 hours for a full competency assessment.

if I recall correctly there’s a grey area over SWR DOO, in that if there’s something in your contract that’s not been implemented in the 20 years the contract has been around for, it effectively stops being part of the contract. I think there’s also a misrepresentation, in that they are contracted for DOO but not dispatch/door controls etc. Both the above points could be wrong as they’re based on Messroom chat.

finally, if I recall correctly, the GatEx test case was more a gentleman’s written agreement that GTR tore up overnight.

And when one company tears something up overnight, it's liable to lead to mistrust of other companies working in the same sector, especially a sector so heavily regulated by central government and the civil service.

I see at least one train was cancelled this morning at short notice due to lack of train crew. Within 10 minutes of it departing too. This was the 05:42 service from Weybridge. Next train wasn't for 45 minutes. There was at least one other train showing last night that by this morning had vanished from the journey planner. South Western Railway's Web Site was also having issues last night and it seems, if one Tweet is accurate, that TfL aren't showing the revised timetable today in their journey planners or if they are, there has been further modifications that they are not showing.

Add into the mix other issues not related to the strikes and it's an interesting build up to the full timetable next Monday.

Well I don't think the lack of replacement bus info for the train diversions tonight between Woking and Portsmouth is related to the strike but maybe it is, due to staff busy elsewhere. I'm assuming they are running replacement buses later. Great Western Railway are. The general note about disruption only covers Great Western Railway but at least the trains themselves are shown as having the stops cancelled.

pompeyfan · 2 Jan 2020

Services to Portsmouth are diverted via Eastleigh due to a land slip. I would imagine it’s an extended possession to stabilise sand tunnel.

ForTheLoveOf · 2 Jan 2020

pompeyfan said:
I think there’s also a misrepresentation, in that they are contracted for DOO but not dispatch/door controls etc.

Obviously it's different for the wider SWR network where trains serve many stations which are unmanned for significant parts of the day, but dispatch needn't be a DOO issue. Gatwick Express initially ran DOO on condition of not having to self-dispatch IIRC (since all of the three main stations are dispatch manned during the entire course of running). Even now I think that a second member of staff is required if 12-cars call at unmanned stations.

Robertj21a · 2 Jan 2020

gwrtimetable19 said:
Obviously it's different for the wider SWR network where trains serve many stations which are unmanned for significant parts of the day, but dispatch needn't be a DOO issue. Gatwick Express initially ran DOO on condition of not having to self-dispatch IIRC (since all of the three main stations are dispatch manned during the entire course of running). Even now I think that a second member of staff is required if 12-cars call at unmanned stations.

But, presumably, on the Gatwick Express it is quite likely to be an OBS rather than a 'guard'.

387star · 2 Jan 2020

Robertj21a said:
But, presumably, on the Gatwick Express it is quite likely to be an OBS rather than a 'guard'.

Brighton mainline does not fall under the OBS agreement and no on train staff are required however Gatwick Express have their own OBS staff based at Redhill

kristiang85 · 2 Jan 2020

The Anon SWR account tweeted this today:

Hello all, Guards that have been on strike reporting they are working as normal today with no mention of training. With one guard saying "it looks like it was all a lie" and "it seems like one last shot to make us look bad". Anon Team

https://twitter.com/anonswr/status/1212726538589949952

Is there truth in this?

JamesT · 2 Jan 2020

The union representative on South Today just now was claiming the continuation of the strike timetable was not down to their members, but because the ‘strike breakers’ who have been ‘operating unsafely’ have all been given annual leave today.

43096 · 2 Jan 2020

JamesT said:
The union representative on South Today just now was claiming the continuation of the strike timetable was not down to their members, but because the ‘strike breakers’ who have been ‘operating unsafely’ have all been given annual leave today.

After a month of operating trains, I’d suggest that the contingency guards are really rather experienced now.

theironroad · 2 Jan 2020

43096 said:
After a month of operating trains, I’d suggest that the contingency guards are really rather experienced now.

This isn't about the contingency guards.

The company has been claiming that all the substantive guards who did not work need safety training today and tomorrow.

Hedley (RMT rep) claimed on south today that the company has given the substantive guards who chose to work during the strike annual leave today.

Certainly at my depot and taking the daily attendance sheet at face value, neither statement is particularly true as zero guards today are marked for any training , medicals or assessments.

Also, some of those who have been working during the strike are also booked to work today.

The truth is often the casualty in the PR war.

Goldfish62 · 2 Jan 2020

JamesT said:
The union representative on South Today just now was claiming the continuation of the strike timetable was not down to their members, but because the ‘strike breakers’ who have been ‘operating unsafely’ have all been given annual leave today.

It's not really a continuation of the strike timetable though, is it? I'd decribe as the December timetable with some trains missing. The Reading line has a significant uplift today compared with during the strikes.

43096 · 2 Jan 2020

Goldfish62 said:
The Reading line has a significant uplift today compared with during the strikes.

They still binned the first three up, either planned or unplanned.

infobleep · 2 Jan 2020

theironroad said:
This isn't about the contingency guards.

The company has been claiming that all the substantive guards who did not work need safety training today and tomorrow.

Hedley (RMT rep) claimed on south today that the company has given the substantive guards who chose to work during the strike annual leave today.

Certainly at my depot and taking the daily attendance sheet at face value, neither statement is particularly true as zero guards today are marked for any training , medicals or assessments.

Also, some of those who have been working during the strike are also booked to work today.

The truth is often the casualty in the PR war.

What is needed is someone like Full Fact to invsstigate this to find the truth.

Is it highly likely their would have been guards needing assessments in December or are their months where they don't do assessments?

pompeyfan · 2 Jan 2020

infobleep said:
What is needed is someone like Full Fact to invsstigate this to find the truth.

Is it highly likely their would have been guards needing assessments in December or are their months where they don't do assessments?

there’s a 3 month window in which assessments can be done. Most depots got ahead of the game and done lots during November. The others needing assessment during December can be done during January and February

hwl · 2 Jan 2020

theironroad said:
This isn't about the contingency guards.

The company has been claiming that all the substantive guards who did not work need safety training today and tomorrow.

Hedley (RMT rep) claimed on south today that the company has given the substantive guards who chose to work during the strike annual leave today.

Certainly at my depot and taking the daily attendance sheet at face value, neither statement is particularly true as zero guards today are marked for any training , medicals or assessments.

Also, some of those who have been working during the strike are also booked to work today.

The truth is often the casualty in the PR war.

Any simple message is always likely to be only partially true

HamworthyGoods · 2 Jan 2020

pompeyfan said:
December 12th could and should have been used by managers to conduct assessments, but they can take anywhere from 3-6 hours for a full competency assessment.

The 12th was used to give the managers a day off...

Assessments are being carried out today and tomorrow instead.

infobleep · 2 Jan 2020

HamworthyGoods said:
The 12th was used to give the managers a day off...

Assessments are being carried out today and tomorrow instead.

That is fair enough I'd forgot re those doing assessments would have been working the trains. Makes sense now.

It's been suggested assessments aren't being carried out today.

Bigfoot · 2 Jan 2020

infobleep said:
That is fair enough I'd forgot re those doing assessments would have been working the trains. Makes sense now.

It's been suggested assessments aren't being carried out today.

Definitely one guard assessment took place that I know of.

nuts & bolts · 2 Jan 2020

infobleep said:
That is fair enough I'd forgot re those doing assessments would have been working the trains. Makes sense now.

It's been suggested assessments aren't being carried out today.

Where is it suggested please!

Wombat · 2 Jan 2020

theironroad said:
There was some difference there in that they were already driving 10 cars as a matter of routine , the issue that ended up in the courts was the extension to driving 12 car routinely which hadn't happened before.

Out of interest, what's the difference to the driver between driving a 12 car train instead of a 10 car train? I'm not disputing from my position of ignorance that there is a difference, just wondering what it is.

infobleep · 2 Jan 2020

JamesT said:
The union representative on South Today just now was claiming the continuation of the strike timetable was not down to their members, but because the ‘strike breakers’ who have been ‘operating unsafely’ have all been given annual leave today.

theironroad said:
This isn't about the contingency guards.

The company has been claiming that all the substantive guards who did not work need safety training today and tomorrow.

Hedley (RMT rep) claimed on south today that the company has given the substantive guards who chose to work during the strike annual leave today.

Certainly at my depot and taking the daily attendance sheet at face value, neither statement is particularly true as zero guards today are marked for any training , medicals or assessments.

Also, some of those who have been working during the strike are also booked to work today.

The truth is often the casualty in the PR war.

pompeyfan said:
there’s a 3 month window in which assessments can be done. Most depots got ahead of the game and done lots during November. The others needing assessment during December can be done during January and February

nuts & bolts said:
Where is it suggested please!

The above posts led me to believe this could be the case. Happy to be corrected. The question now is, did the assessment of the guard(a) cause trains to be cancelled?

Pedhaps the answer is yes. If so then the next question is what percentage of cancelled trains was due to the guard(s) being tested? How did this compare to other factors leading to train cancellations. I'm not suggesting other ones be group together either, as that would be unfair and give the impressions guards weren't the issue when maybe they were the biggest, amongst many things.

The information must exist somewhwre. Someone just needs to put it all out in the open.

cactustwirly · 2 Jan 2020

pompeyfan said:
.

if I recall correctly there’s a grey area over SWR DOO, in that if there’s something in your contract that’s not been implemented in the 20 years the contract has been around for, it effectively stops being part of the contract.

You have anything to back up that claim?
I don't think it's true, A most drivers won't have been there for 20 years, and B if it's in your contact, it's legally binding, since you agreed to it.

43096 · 2 Jan 2020

theironroad said:
This isn't about the contingency guards.

The company has been claiming that all the substantive guards who did not work need safety training today and tomorrow.

Hedley (RMT rep) claimed on south today that the company has given the substantive guards who chose to work during the strike annual leave today.

Certainly at my depot and taking the daily attendance sheet at face value, neither statement is particularly true as zero guards today are marked for any training , medicals or assessments.

Also, some of those who have been working during the strike are also booked to work today.

The truth is often the casualty in the PR war.

I was replying to the point about "strike breakers" and "operating unsafely" in the RMT's media appearances. I assume that was a reference to the contingency guards - or does RMT think any full-time guard who wasn't on strike is operating unsafely?

WA_Driver · 2 Jan 2020

cactustwirly said:
You have anything to back up that claim?
I don't think it's true, A most drivers won't have been there for 20 years, and B if it's in your contact, it's legally binding, since you agreed to it.

Ask ASLEF.....it them that are making that claim.

3141 · 2 Jan 2020

cactustwirly said:
You have anything to back up that claim?
I don't think it's true, A most drivers won't have been there for 20 years, and B if it's in your contact, it's legally binding, since you agreed to it.

We used to hear a lot about "custom and practice". Most often it was in a context where people hadn't been doing something that was part of their job description, and they argued that they should not have to start doing it; but it might also be where they had been doing something they hadn't originally had to do, so they asked for extra money, and an employer argued that as they'd been doing it for a while without anything extra they should continue that way. If a drivers' contract includes operating doors but they haven't ever had to do it, I would not be surprised if they sought extra pay to start doing it.

SWT_USER · 2 Jan 2020

WA_Driver said:
Ask ASLEF.....it them that are making that claim.

Would imagine ASLEF will think very carefully before testing that in court. The Southern / GatEx fiasco was very expensive for them.

WA_Driver · 2 Jan 2020

SWT_USER said:
Would imagine ASLEF will think very carefully before testing that in court. The Southern / GatEx fiasco was very expensive for them.

Agreed. That why they have stayed very quiet during RMT strike action. And won’t answer the pleas of RMT asking ASLEF to join in the dispute.

TEW · 2 Jan 2020

All the trains cancelled today were planned to run as ECS DOO in their booked pathways. There were guards who had their booked trains cancelled who sat spare, and other spare guards who were unutilised. There were also guards volunteering and able to work free days who were not given work. More trains certainly could have been ran today.

43066 · 2 Jan 2020

WombatDeath said:
Out of interest, what's the difference to the driver between driving a 12 car train instead of a 10 car train? I'm not disputing from my position of ignorance that there is a difference, just wondering what it is.

Not much difference from a train handling perspective (if anything, the longer the train, the better the braking performance).

However, from a DOO dispatch perspective, a twelve car train gives the driver four more sets of doors to worry about.

Goldfish62 · 3 Jan 2020

TEW said:
All the trains cancelled today were planned to run as ECS DOO in their booked pathways. There were guards who had their booked trains cancelled who sat spare, and other spare guards who were unutilised. There were also guards volunteering and able to work free days who were not given work. More trains certainly could have been ran today.

What a farce. Mind you, a insider friend told me this also used to happen in SWT days when there was general disruption.

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