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UK housing supply - the problem & solutions

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Jozhua

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Hi,

Wondered what people have to say about the current housing issues we're facing here in the UK, as the supply added each year continues to be woefully inadequate.

London is financially inaccessible to many young people, with other cities, even in the North quickly growing in price.

I can see a couple of driving factors:
-Increasing urbanisation driving demand for housing in cities
-Obviously increasing population!
-London's housing crisis overflowing into quite a significant amount of the rest of the country, with mad commutes to boot!

I'll make another post about solutions I see for this issue, but probably in the morning :)

In the meantime, please share your thoughts, feelings, experiences and ideas to how we can combat this issue
 
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SteveP29

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Ranty, Britain First/ National Front woman on Question Time on Thursday suggested closing all borders.
(I'm not going to give her the oxygen of publicity by posting a link, but if you do social media, that's probably all you've seen since Thursday night)

So there you go, Brexiters know the craic and that's the housing shortage solved in one fell swoop.
 

Starmill

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The problem suits the government quite well - scarce supply supports rapid property inflation. Most Conservative voters are already property owners, and they're particularly interested in the value of their property increasing faster than inflation.
 

Jozhua

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Ranty, Britain First/ National Front woman on Question Time on Thursday suggested closing all borders.
(I'm not going to give her the oxygen of publicity by posting a link, but if you do social media, that's probably all you've seen since Thursday night)

So there you go, Brexiters know the craic and that's the housing shortage solved in one fell swoop.

Oh wow lol, even if you closed the borders tomorrow (ignoring the other social and economic impacts of doing so), there's still a housing shortage that needs to be resolved!

The problem suits the government quite well - scarce supply supports rapid property inflation. Most Conservative voters are already property owners, and they're particularly interested in the value of their property increasing faster than inflation.

Unfortunately, I think this is true. I highly doubt anything will be done, which will continue to make younger generations worse off than their parents in regards to standard of living. Whilst technology has brought some obvious improvements, it doesn't solve the issue people need a roof above their heads that doesn't cost 50% of their income.

If you did want to solve the housing issues though, I can think of plenty good solutions!

Mid-high rise prefabricated buildings:
-Typically the higher you go, the less economic it gets after say 6-8 floors. However, with more pre-fabricated components, it may be possible to increase the economic height of a building to maybe 20 stories or so!

The Chinese have perfected this method, with it not only being used for the Wuhan hospital, but also this 57 storey building, raised with just 19 days of construction:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-firm-erects-57-storey-skyscraper-in-19-days

Unfortunately, many private housebuilders seem to be caught up building crampt suburban homes, which is all you see politicians laying a single brick on. In a country with quite strict green-belt rules, I don't think the level we are relying on suburban development will help much with our housing issues.
 

najaB

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Increasing urbanisation driving demand for housing in cities
Which is actually the most efficient way to house people. As long as people accept that they're not all going to have a large private garden space and so on you can fit a lot of people in a pretty small space.
Obviously increasing population!
Taking London as an example, between 1995 and 2018 the population increased from 6.9m to 8.9m - an increase of c. 30%. In the same time house prices increased (on average) by 500%. So it isn't just population growth driving the increases.
London's housing crisis overflowing into quite a significant amount of the rest of the country, with mad commutes to boot!
Which points to one of the main problems (IMO) - growth in the UK economy has been largely confined to one corner of the country.
 

433N

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If you look at many urban areas around the world, people enjoy living in the city in high rise blocks. Britain's problem is that in the 60's, it threw poor quality high rise blocks up and left them with no upkeep or concierge so that they became vertical slums. Now, no one wants to live in urban high rise blocks, despite the convenience of a short commute.

I see much of this as a problem purely of Britain-on-the-Cheap's making. The solution should be high rise / density living on brown field sites ... but it won't be (even if there is actually an alternative).
 

DarloRich

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We need more houses. We have a large population who are living more solitary lives. We need good quality council houses with a right to buy scheme that actually works and we need more use of abandoned buildings and brown field to deliver new homes.

That said: Perhaps work hard at saving. I did that. It is bloody hard work but has to be done. It means being very ruthless about spending and cutting out everything you don't need and denying things you want. It means buying and living as frugally as possible. You don't need a fancy new Iphone or smart trainers or first class trips on the train or takeaways or a nice car or weekend euro breaks or nights out on the pop or trendy coffee. Get rid and save. It is amazing how much of your monthly wage you can bank if you are hard, ruthless and frugal.

It took me 5 or 6 years and it was VERY hard at times but I did it and I was in a very bad place financially to begin with, still had rent and bills to pay and didn't have the privilege of an account with the bank of mum and dad. BTW this wasn't 30 years ago - it was less than 3. It will be a bit harder now but not vastly harder. Stop making excuses. Save.

The problem suits the government quite well - scarce supply supports rapid property inflation. Most Conservative voters are already property owners, and they're particularly interested in the value of their property increasing faster than inflation.

I am not a Tory voter but am a property owner (subject to mortgage) . I am quite keen my property continues to rise in value, if only because it might be what provides me with some comfort in retirement. I would also like the hard work I put into buying a house rewarded.
 

Jozhua

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Which is actually the most efficient way to house people. As long as people accept that they're not all going to have a large private garden space and so on you can fit a lot of people in a pretty small space.
Taking London as an example, between 1995 and 2018 the population increased from 6.9m to 8.9m - an increase of c. 30%. In the same time house prices increased (on average) by 500%. So it isn't just population growth driving the increases.
Which points to one of the main problems (IMO) - growth in the UK economy has been largely confined to one corner of the country.

Yeah, the centralisation around London is quite dramatic. Not many countries have such a large population of people concentrated in their largest city, or capital for that matter. Maybe apart from Singapore or Hong Kong :lol:

Some of the concentration of economic prosperity is understandable, but quite a bit is compounded by poor decision making and policy at government level. Obviously private entities compound this further, but expecting them to do what's best for the country vs bottom line is unrealistic.

One of the big arguments I see 'for' London is that it takes in the majority of tax revenue and is actually subsidising the rest of the country. I'd question this logic though, as the majority headquarters of businesses that operate throughout the country are based there, along with their highest paying jobs. Many government departments are also based in London, so much government spending is done around the capital.

London has become a bubble, and shouldn't be, its success is tied to the rest of the country and visa versa. Making sure the prosperity of the capital is shared more evenly, even if it seems unfair, will ultimately benefit us all. Perhaps moving new growth to other areas will offer some breathing room for young Londoners to help get on the property ladder without having to move away.

If you look at many urban areas around the world, people enjoy living in the city in high rise blocks. Britain's problem is that in the 60's, it threw poor quality high rise blocks up and left them with no upkeep or concierge so that they became vertical slums. Now, no one wants to live in urban high rise blocks, despite the convenience of a short commute.

I see much of this as a problem purely of Britain-on-the-Cheap's making. The solution should be high rise / density living on brown field sites ... but it won't be (even if there is actually an alternative).

In response to both of the above posts' points surrounding high rises and dense urban development, so I'll address them both here!

I totally agree that urban areas/high rises are the most efficient way to house people, with plenty of benefits:

-Services are closer by, meaning a shorter drive at the least, or in many cases within a walkable/bikeable distance. (This also has the effect of allowing people to live healthier lifestyles that fit in with their schedules!)
-Its cheaper for local councils to provide services like healthcare, bin collection, etc as they don't need to cover such a wide area.
-It's more economical to connect these areas to public transport, and good quality fast stuff, like rapid transit systems, trams, BRT's, etc.
-Less urban heat island effect.
-Larger buildings reduce the surface area to volume ratio, reducing heating/cooling requirements per given square metre of space.
-Less urban sprawl, conservation of countryside. Also more opportunity to leave space for urban parks and open areas, which many suburban areas seem to have a surprising lack of.

Unfortunately, yes, the 60's and recent events with Grenfell have tarnished the high rise in the British public's perception. Although, I'd say build them and they surprisingly will come! Manchester, Birmingham and London are seeing a fair few new tall buildings, even along with smaller cities like Sheffield. However, land values have to rise quite a lot before we see things like this, so they tend to cater only to the higher end of the market.

We need more houses. We have a large population who are living more solitary lives. We need good quality council houses with a right to buy scheme that actually works and we need more use of abandoned buildings and brown field to deliver new homes.

That said: Perhaps work hard at saving. I did that. It is bloody hard work but has to be done. It means being very ruthless about spending and cutting out everything you don't need and denying things you want. It means buying and living as frugally as possible. You don't need a fancy new Iphone or smart trainers or first class trips on the train or takeaways or a nice car or weekend euro breaks or nights out on the pop or trendy coffee. Get rid and save. It is amazing how much of your monthly wage you can bank if you are hard, ruthless and frugal.

It took me 5 or 6 years and it was VERY hard at times but I did it and I was in a very bad place financially to begin with, still had rent and bills to pay and didn't have the privilege of an account with the bank of mum and dad. BTW this wasn't 30 years ago - it was less than 3. It will be a bit harder now but not vastly harder. Stop making excuses. Save.

I am not a Tory voter but am a property owner (subject to mortgage) . I am quite keen my property continues to rise in value, if only because it might be what provides me with some comfort in retirement. I would also like the hard work I put into buying a house rewarded.

Unfortunately, many people aren't in the position of being able to cut out the 'luxuries' to save for a new home.

That said, this is sound personal financial advice, but isn't a solution to a wider issue. If everyone did this, the amount of money people have to pay for houses would rise, meaning so would the prices.

And also, should we live in a world where people have to lock up so much capital in a property? Housing is a necessity, just like utilities such as water or the air we breathe. Due to planning regulations and the like, you can't just live in a shed or garage, so the only means of getting a roof over your head is by purchasing a legal dwelling, with the expenses to ensue.

Imagine if water was a traded commodity like gold or silver. If the prices artificially raised as people used it as a way to store capital. This is why decomodification of housing is actually quite a good social policy.

In regards to you and the money you have invested in your property, would it not be nice to have a decent proportion of that instead free to invest in say stocks, savings, a new business venture or even on expanding and improving your existing property?

I'd argue these would be better for the economy than having to sit on a giant pile of speculative gold, like Smaug, just to have a roof over your head.
 

Enthusiast

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Most of the responses to this question seem to think it's OK to have a continually increasing population. It clearly isn't because at some point (and parts of the UK are already demonstrating this) the issue of housing is a side show. Humans need more than places to live to keep them going and an ever increasing number of humans means an ever increasing effort will have to be made to provide those things. There are simply too many people in the UK and to harp on about the distribution of the population is pointless. People don't want to live in the Cumbrian Fells or on Dartmoor; they want to live in London, Birmingham, Manchester and the other big conurbations. That's where they feel comfortable, that's where there might be work for them and that's where there might be the services that they need. But not only is there no room for them (unless they live in 30 storey rabbit hutches). There aren't the services they need because there's no room for them either.
 

najaB

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Unfortunately, yes, the 60's and recent events with Grenfell have tarnished the high rise in the British public's perception. Although, I'd say build them and they surprisingly will come!
Call them condos and they'll sell.
 

Meerkat

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There isn’t really a scarce supply of houses, just a scarcity of houses for sale thanks to low interest rates driving the flight of investment into buy to let - Reluctant renters are paying other people’s mortgages.
They get priced and timed out the market (BTL buyers don’t have chains) and BTL reduces the turnover. My road is mainly small terrace houses that couples move through fairly quickly as they earn more and need more space for families. When I moved in there would always be two or three for sale, now all you see are ‘To Let” boards.
Need to reduce BTL as quickly as we can without crashing the market.

I don’t like the idea of council housing - it creates economic and social segregation.
The government controls planning, if they want affordable housing they can make it happen.
 

Jozhua

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Most of the responses to this question seem to think it's OK to have a continually increasing population. It clearly isn't because at some point (and parts of the UK are already demonstrating this) the issue of housing is a side show. Humans need more than places to live to keep them going and an ever increasing number of humans means an ever increasing effort will have to be made to provide those things. There are simply too many people in the UK and to harp on about the distribution of the population is pointless. People don't want to live in the Cumbrian Fells or on Dartmoor; they want to live in London, Birmingham, Manchester and the other big conurbations. That's where they feel comfortable, that's where there might be work for them and that's where there might be the services that they need. But not only is there no room for them (unless they live in 30 storey rabbit hutches). There aren't the services they need because there's no room for them either.

I refer to you the demographic transition model, very widely proven and reliable way of measuring population growth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition

Ultimately though, as others have said, prices have risen much faster than the growth in population. Obviously there's a conversation to be had about things like migration and sustainable birth rates, however that isn't necessarily the perview of this thread.

Just looking at the numbers and stats, it's clear other countries have managed to build much more dense urban areas whilst retaining and quite arguably improving quality of life.

AND, it's about giving people options, ultimately quite a few people would be happy to live in a 'rabbit hutch' at 30 stories in the air if it meant they got a breather from terribly high rents and getting them nearer to their work, shops and entertainment.

Ultimately its clear that the way the current house market operates, population increase or not, prices are too high. This is because people are moving out of rural areas into cities and because of the speculative value stored in housing.

Call them condos and they'll sell.

Aye, exactly ;)
 

Jozhua

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There isn’t really a scarce supply of houses, just a scarcity of houses for sale thanks to low interest rates driving the flight of investment into buy to let - Reluctant renters are paying other people’s mortgages.
They get priced and timed out the market (BTL buyers don’t have chains) and BTL reduces the turnover. My road is mainly small terrace houses that couples move through fairly quickly as they earn more and need more space for families. When I moved in there would always be two or three for sale, now all you see are ‘To Let” boards.
Need to reduce BTL as quickly as we can without crashing the market.

I don’t like the idea of council housing - it creates economic and social segregation.
The government controls planning, if they want affordable housing they can make it happen.

Yeah, I don't care for by to let at all. This only serves to line the pockets of the better off in society, in exchange for them providing almost nothing of economic benefit to the rest of us in exchange.

That said, I'm not some sort of Mao type inclination who wants to chop the head off all landlords, but I think we should take a serious look at the economic incentives we provide to landlords and whether these are of benefit to society at large.

Council housing can be good, when done right. I think the major failures come by just piling all the low income people into one place, damn the social consequences. It seems to do more to separate communities by income than promote cohesion.

I think if we want to see a well funded council housing programme, homes need to be available to a much wider band of incomes who can benefit from it. This will also help ensure communities have a mix of residents, promoting better social cohesion. Also trying to work these developments into existing communities, where people already know each other instead of tacking an estate onto the edge of town will help.
 

Snow1964

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There are 5 main areas :

1) Right to buy as been a disaster, had 4.5m Council houses in 1970s, everyone sold was discounted, and not replaced, so now far too few
2) Asset stripping, if public land is sold off, private developers make all the profit selling new homes, and then less land remaining
3) Need to have massive building programme of standard apartments that remain permanently as cheap rentals.
4) Not everyone wants to live in flats so got to encourage existing home owners to move out of family houses when retired and no family and no longer need big house (stamp duty system discourages it) and lack of retirement villages in UK
5) Also need to make available more student homes, and better control houses in multiple occupancy (HMO), limit the licences so landlords not incentivised to turn scarce family houses into shared properties

As for the cost, basic economics controls it, if provide cheap and easily available rental properties then rest of market will sort itself out, anything expensive will be undercut. But as already stated, some politicians have vested interest in high property prices as they own multiple properties.

Council / public housing works where it isn’t obvious. No one wants stigma of cheap run down estate. Go to somewhere like Poundbury (which I think is 37% rented), but you won’t know which are owned and which rented as you walk around. It just works. Making Council houses stand out by being basic featureless boxes externally does not work (and most people who object to council houses actually mean cheap looking estates, not the principal of having cheap rentals for the poorer)
 
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bramling

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Hi,

Wondered what people have to say about the current housing issues we're facing here in the UK, as the supply added each year continues to be woefully inadequate.

London is financially inaccessible to many young people, with other cities, even in the North quickly growing in price.

I can see a couple of driving factors:
-Increasing urbanisation driving demand for housing in cities
-Obviously increasing population!
-London's housing crisis overflowing into quite a significant amount of the rest of the country, with mad commutes to boot!

I'll make another post about solutions I see for this issue, but probably in the morning :)

In the meantime, please share your thoughts, feelings, experiences and ideas to how we can combat this issue

I agree with all of the above.

First and foremost there needs to be a rational debate about population numbers, along with some hard choices potentially being made as to how various factors can be managed, in particular what trade-offs we might be prepared to accept. Such a debate needs to be devoid of emotive issues like race.

Linked to this is the continuing issue of London overspill. If London is content to have a hefty increase in population then there needs to be some realisation that this shouldn’t be allowed to overspill into the wider south-east. The parochial Mayor of London setup hasn’t helped this IMO as it has contributed to London becoming politically out of alignment with the surrounding area.
 

DarloRich

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Unfortunately, many people aren't in the position of being able to cut out the 'luxuries' to save for a new home.

If you are looking to buy then you are absolutely in the position to cut out "luxuries". If you aren't you rent. That is life. This debate always seems to throw up people making excuses why they cant save up. I know, I made them for long enough. Whats your excuse for not saving towards a house?

BTW - I have rented so know the frustrations and I have been on housing benefit when I was out of work and living on £47 a week. I would have been homeless without HB so I know about not being in a position to cut out luxuries. The luxuary for me was do I have the light on on use the electric to cook my dinner. I wasn't looking to buy a house then. I was looking not to be on the street.

That said, this is sound personal financial advice, but isn't a solution to a wider issue. If everyone did this, the amount of money people have to pay for houses would rise, meaning so would the prices.

Are you trying to sell that to me (as a mortgagor) as a negative? Bring it on I say!

And also, should we live in a world where people have to lock up so much capital in a property? Housing is a necessity, just like utilities such as water or the air we breathe. Due to planning regulations and the like, you can't just live in a shed or garage, so the only means of getting a roof over your head is by purchasing a legal dwelling, with the expenses to ensue.

Emotive nonsesne.

Imagine if water was a traded commodity like gold or silver. If the prices artificially raised as people used it as a way to store capital. This is why decomodification of housing is actually quite a good social policy.

Ah the Corbyn policy: Too lazy to put in the hard work like other people? Don't worry here is a free house. Nah, someone else will pay for you.

In regards to you and the money you have invested in your property, would it not be nice to have a decent proportion of that instead free to invest in say stocks, savings, a new business venture or even on expanding and improving your existing property?

lets be honest - if i wasn't saving for a house I would have spent the money on the things I cut out and I would still be looking for excuses why I didn't save that money. Your argument, essentially, is that you should have a nice house (free) AND A fancy car and iphone and trainers and euro breaks. It isnt realistic. Make a choice. If you chose to priorotise a nice new Iphone that is your choice. You cant ( or at least I couldn't) have both. Don't complain about your choice.

I'd argue these would be better for the economy than having to sit on a giant pile of speculative gold, like Smaug, just to have a roof over your head.

Maybe. But if you chose not to save don't complain. It seems that younger people ( God I sound old) expect to be given everything for free. Stop making excuses.



All that said we still need to build more houses. I would return to what council houses were originally about: A good quality range of homes for a range of people across most of normal society. Coupled with a proper right to buy scheme this could enable a whole new generation of people to earn towards ownership and allow the proceeds to be reinvested in more housing helping the next generation.

I would run the right to buy like a shared ownership stair-casing system and sell owners defined chunks of their property on agreed timescales. There would be a certain period of time renting the house to allow the funds required ( if you want) to buy your first chunk. Thereafter chunks are offered on the agreed time scale at the agreed price until you own all the property. I would also have a staged transfer of maintenance responsibility to the prospective owner as they stair case. I might make part of the agreement a contract that you remain owning the house ( not rented out) for X years after complete ownership to stop carpet bagging.

That would remove some of the heat under the rented market but preserve the buying market because as people change and families grow they would need more space and so would move out into other properties.

of course, it will never happen.........................
 

Bletchleyite

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If you are looking to buy then you are absolutely in the position to cut out "luxuries". If you aren't you rent. That is life. This debate always seems to throw up people making excuses why they cant save up. I know, I made them for long enough. Whats your excuse for not saving towards a house?

I think you've got a very good point there.

The key financial advantage of buying a house is that generally speaking inflation and price increases mean that after a period of 5-10 years you are no longer stretched, so cutting luxuries in the short term does have a light at the end of the tunnel which isn't an oncoming train. (There are other advantages if you want to make changes to it, but not everyone does).
 

Jozhua

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Please don’t build on river flood plains though!

Unfortunately, many cities past, present and likely future have and will be built on flood plains!

That said, there are ways of better mitigating flooding. More dense housing that occupies less space reduces the amount of surface run-off and frees up land to soak up rainfall. This is also why building tons of car infrastructure can be really bad, wide roads and large surface parking lots go a long way to exacerbate the issue.

Having good storm drainage and building infrastructure to deal with sudden downpours before releasing it slowly helps.
Adding city trees and wildlife can also help act as a 'soak' for rainfall.

There are 5 main areas :

1) Right to buy as been a disaster, had 4.5m Council houses in 1970s, everyone sold was discounted, and not replaced, so now far too few
2) Asset stripping, if public land is sold off, private developers make all the profit selling new homes, and then less land remaining
3) Need to have massive building programme of standard apartments that remain permanently as cheap rentals.
4) Not everyone wants to live in flats so got to encourage existing home owners to move out of family houses when retired and no family and no longer need big house (stamp duty system discourages it) and lack of retirement villages in UK
5) Also need to make available more student homes, and better control houses in multiple occupancy (HMO), limit the licences so landlords not incentivised to turn scarce family houses into shared properties

As for the cost, basic economics controls it, if provide cheap and easily available rental properties then rest of market will sort itself out, anything expensive will be undercut. But as already stated, some politicians have vested interest in high property prices as they own multiple properties.

Council / public housing works where it isn’t obvious. No one wants stigma of cheap run down estate. Go to somewhere like Poundbury (which I think is 37% rented), but you won’t know which are owned and which rented as you walk around. It just works. Making Council houses stand out by being basic featureless boxes externally does not work (and most people who object to council houses actually mean cheap looking estates, not the principal of having cheap rentals for the poorer)

Totally agree with council housing working where it isn't obvious!

Really, developments should be built in and around existing areas, in small clumps. In that way, you don't end up with 1000's of displaced people all from different areas who don't know each other, and the social issues to boot.

Basic economics is also very applicable to this situation! At the end of the day, all the changes in policy that aren't just building more housing aren't going to have the desired impact unless more housing is built.

Affordable housing, expensive housing, mid priced, high rise, mid rise, low rise, we need more of all of it to some extent!

Private developers seem to be good at building overpriced and still crampt suburban homes, so we'll leave them to that game. In the mean time, mid priced and affordable homes should be made by the government and still sold/rented at a profit, so the programme is actually sustainable. However, the margins don't need to be as high as in the private market.

I agree with all of the above.

First and foremost there needs to be a rational debate about population numbers, along with some hard choices potentially being made as to how various factors can be managed, in particular what trade-offs we might be prepared to accept. Such a debate needs to be devoid of emotive issues like race.

Linked to this is the continuing issue of London overspill. If London is content to have a hefty increase in population then there needs to be some realisation that this shouldn’t be allowed to overspill into the wider south-east. The parochial Mayor of London setup hasn’t helped this IMO as it has contributed to London becoming politically out of alignment with the surrounding area.

Yeah, London really needs to sort out its housing and fast. For too long historic preservation has been seen as mutually exclusive to New development.

Honestly though, I think the sensible option would be to not offer child tax credits, benefits, free childcare beyond two kids. (unless you have your second kid as twins, or in rare circumstances, triplets, etc...) Things like China's one child policy are way too draconian, but it seems fair to cut back the extra support after two kids.

However, the conversation around population shouldn't be mutually exclusive to observing the many other contributing factors to high housing cost!

How would you define London overspill? Is the corollary that people in the home counties aren't allowed to commute in?

Oh London has already massively over spilled into the home counties. Areas like Surrey are basically part of the standard commute now.

Problem is, prices are now going up in the home counties too, so places as far out as Bristol are becoming part of the London commuter belt!

If you are looking to buy then you are absolutely in the position to cut out "luxuries". If you aren't you rent. That is life. This debate always seems to throw up people making excuses why they cant save up. I know, I made them for long enough. Whats your excuse for not saving towards a house?

BTW - I have rented so know the frustrations and I have been on housing benefit when I was out of work and living on £47 a week. I would have been homeless without HB so I know about not being in a position to cut out luxuries. The luxuary for me was do I have the light on on use the electric to cook my dinner. I wasn't looking to buy a house then. I was looking not to be on the street.



Are you trying to sell that to me (as a mortgagor) as a negative? Bring it on I say!



Emotive nonsesne.



Ah the Corbyn policy: Too lazy to put in the hard work like other people? Don't worry here is a free house. Nah, someone else will pay for you.



lets be honest - if i wasn't saving for a house I would have spent the money on the things I cut out and I would still be looking for excuses why I didn't save that money. Your argument, essentially, is that you should have a nice house (free) AND A fancy car and iphone and trainers and euro breaks. It isnt realistic. Make a choice. If you chose to priorotise a nice new Iphone that is your choice. You cant ( or at least I couldn't) have both. Don't complain about your choice.



Maybe. But if you chose not to save don't complain. It seems that younger people ( God I sound old) expect to be given everything for free. Stop making excuses.



All that said we still need to build more houses. I would return to what council houses were originally about: A good quality range of homes for a range of people across most of normal society. Coupled with a proper right to buy scheme this could enable a whole new generation of people to earn towards ownership and allow the proceeds to be reinvested in more housing helping the next generation.

I would run the right to buy like a shared ownership stair-casing system and sell owners defined chunks of their property on agreed timescales. There would be a certain period of time renting the house to allow the funds required ( if you want) to buy your first chunk. Thereafter chunks are offered on the agreed time scale at the agreed price until you own all the property. I would also have a staged transfer of maintenance responsibility to the prospective owner as they stair case. I might make part of the agreement a contract that you remain owning the house ( not rented out) for X years after complete ownership to stop carpet bagging.

That would remove some of the heat under the rented market but preserve the buying market because as people change and families grow they would need more space and so would move out into other properties.

of course, it will never happen.........................

Well we might disagree on some of the finer details of the economics, but I think we can agree that more should be done to resolve issues in the UK housing market.

At the end of the day, many people would happily build their own wooden shed to live in would it be allowed, but it isn't. If you want to enforce minimum housing standards, then it is only right you make sure these are affordable to everyone.

One point I do want to bring up, which ties into buying, is how slow and painful the process of buying/selling property is in the UK.

Funnily enough, I'm mostly in a position to actually buy a property. However, I'm unsure where I will be in a couple of years time. Due to the fact buying/selling is such a laborious and difficult process, as well as a costly one, I'm hesitent to take the jump and buy.

I was chatting to a Canadian real estate seller, who knows a bit about the UK market and he said how awful the process can be in England. In fact, it was reflected by another Canadian who had just moved to England on my flight back!

In Canada, pulling out of a sale after making an offer is sticky legally. Once you have agreed to make the purchase, you're pretty well binded into following it through.

However, in the UK this is not the case. Chains frequently fall apart as your buyer has someone pull out of purchasing their property, so they pull out of yours. This then sends you back to square one, with more viewings, estate agent costs, solicitors costs, etc.

Then there are the legal issues. Obviously buyer protection is important, but this shouldn't be coming at the expense of crippling the movement of the whole market. Solicitors also take absolutely ages, mostly to squeeze out all the cash they can, or employ as few people as possible on as many jobs as possible.

Really, some robust laws would help sort this out. Make it harder to pull out of a purchase, but also give the buyer some legal recourse if a property is mis-sold.

Then mortgage providers tend to insist on their own independent surveyors, which always take like a month to come out and say the exact same thing the previous five surveyors who have come to your house said.
 
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DarloRich

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Well we might disagree on some of the finer details of the economics, but I think we can agree that more should be done to resolve issues in the UK housing market. Things that are not being dealt with currently

One point I do want to bring up, which ties into buying, is how slow and painful the process of buying/selling property is in the UK.

Funnily enough, I'm mostly in a position to actually buy a property. However, I'm unsure where I will be in a couple of years time. Due to the fact buying/selling is such a laborious and difficult process, as well as a costly one, I'm hesitent to take the jump and buy.

I was chatting to a Canadian real estate seller, who knows a bit about the UK market and he said how awful the process can be in England. In fact, it was reflected by another Canadian who had just moved to England on my flight back!

In Canada, pulling out of a sale after making an offer is sticky legally. Once you have agreed to make the purchase, you're pretty well binded into following it through.

However, in the UK this is not the case. Chains frequently fall apart as your buyer has someone pull out of purchasing their property, so they pull out of yours. This then sends you back to square one, with more viewings, estate agent costs, solicitors costs, etc.

Then there are the legal issues. Obviously buyer protection is important, but this shouldn't be coming at the expense of crippling the movement of the whole market. Solicitors also take absolutely ages, mostly to squeeze out all the cash they can, or employ as few people as possible on as many jobs as possible.

Really, some robust laws would help sort this out. Make it harder to pull out of a purchase, but also give the buyer some legal recourse if a property is mis-sold.

Then mortgage providers tend to insist on their own independent surveyors, which always take like a month to come out and say the exact same thing the previous five surveyors who have come to your house said.

This is completely wrong. I know quite a bit about this tbh ;)

One of the biggest problems and delays is that people make bids without being in the position to proceed. They often haven't a sale or arranged a mortgage offer in principle.
 
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Jozhua

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This is completely wrong. I know quite a bit about this tbh ;)

One of the biggest problems and delays is that people make bids without being in the position to proceed. They often haven't a sale or arranged a mortgage offer in principle.

Which is why having better seller protections, so people can't put in bids and pull out so easily would help move things a lot faster. These aren't business to business trades, they are individuals involved who incur significant costs being constantly messed around, so I think some level of protection to have people locked in once a bid is put down and all parties are in agreement to move forward.

Also, thought I'd post this, the BBC has done a long read on high rise buildings! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/miev6i55we/tower_blocks_ups_downs_high_rise

Goes into much of the history, including the reasons UK high rise/apartments get a bad wrap. One of those is our terrible and archaic fire rules for larger buildings. The fact we haven't adopted active fire safety, when our 'passive' approach is so easily compromised, as proved by grenfell is beyond me. Sprinklers and extra fire stairways should be mandatory in buildings over around 5 stories. It's hard to see who foots the bill for existing properties, as developers build to the legal minimums and it's the laws that were not up to scratch. Unfortunately, nothing appears to have changed legally and developers will continue to build to these out of date standards as long as they exist. It appears you can't sue them or get them to foot the bill for improvements, as they have technically done everything to spec.

North America is usually pretty terrible at density, but they've absolutely nailed the quality high rise. After staying with relatives who live in a high rise in Chicago and the odd AirBnB in the continent, high rises are generally pleasant, modern and safe.

That said, these things do come at a cost, I reckon the future for the majority of people is probably buildings around 3-5 stories. One of my friends in Manchester lives in an older building that has been converted/extended. The whole site is only one building, but the upside is actually that multiple stairways/escape routes are available in an emergency.
 

Enthusiast

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There are not.

So the converse is that there are too few houses, too few medical facilities, too few transport facilities, too little water provision, too few schools and so on. If that is the case, what's the level of sustainable population that you envisage for the UK and why do you find an ever-increasing level of population so desirable?
 

najaB

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So the converse is that there are too few houses, too few medical facilities, too few transport facilities, too little water provision, too few schools and so on. If that is the case, what's the level of sustainable population that you envisage for the UK and why do you find an ever-increasing level of population so desirable?
It goes without saying that you cannot have unending, infinite growth but the UK is far from full. If you travel around the country you'll find villages and towns that are quite literally dying through lack of population. There are schools and hospitals closing because they don't serve a large enough user base, and houses are being sold for £1 in some northern towns to try and get people to stay.

I presume you're not from Scotland or you'd know the problems we have with labour shortages.

As to the eventual peak UK population, I'd expect somewhere between 75 and 80 million - even the higher of which world give us a comparable population density to Japan. Which is a country known for both dense cities and large wild natural spaces.
 

DarloRich

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Which is why having better seller protections, so people can't put in bids and pull out so easily would help move things a lot faster. These aren't business to business trades, they are individuals involved who incur significant costs being constantly messed around, so I think some level of protection to have people locked in once a bid is put down and all parties are in agreement to move forward.

I am still not sure you understand the process as well as you suggest. It isn't as simple as you suggest without a complete change to the entire process. How, for instance, do you propose to protect the interest of the party who really matters in all this: The mortgage company?

Also your picture of the conveyancing process is inaccurate generally and reads like something out of a trashy paper reflecting the situation in 1973. Like I said I know it quite well. I lived it for long enough. It is different these days.
 

najaB

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North America is usually pretty terrible at density, but they've absolutely nailed the quality high rise.
The path to those quality laws and regulations is lined with many bodies. If memory serves correct, the MGM Grand fire in Las Vegas was responsible for a lot of the changes such as requiring sprinklers in large buildings.
 

The Ham

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So the converse is that there are too few houses, too few medical facilities, too few transport facilities, too little water provision, too few schools and so on. If that is the case, what's the level of sustainable population that you envisage for the UK and why do you find an ever-increasing level of population so desirable?

If we stopped people coming here for work then we'd find that there's be too few homes, too few medical facilities, too few transport facilities, too few schools, and so on.

Why is this? It's because our population is aging.

There are cities where there's too many school places because the number of children which have been born has gone down.

That partly due to an aging population but also down to people remaining single for longer, or if not single not wishing to start having children (often in part to housing costs).

It's also not uncommon for people to move abroad to live and work, often again due to the cost of housing here.

These things are rarely clear cut, there is probably some over provision of workforce through immigration and there's certainly some problems which are caused by it.

However given that young workers (regardless of where they are from) tend to live more densely than those who are older, then generally the problems are more likely to be caused by those who live on their own or as a couple in a large 5 bedroom house at in grounds you can measure in a sizable fraction of an acre, rather than those who are living in much more compact accommodation.

Part of the problem is that houses aren't often that space efficient. It would be better to have a higher ceiling height and have beds which were 7 foot off the floor and not need as much floor space rather than make bedrooms 2m2 bigger. Especially if that space was taken out of the loft space which is generally poorly used.

Alternatively, having built in beds which act as bunks but each is accessed from a different room.

Likewise it would be better to provide better integral storage using up otherwise under used space. For instance cupboards under bathroom sinks rather than pedestals. Likewise having a shower and sink in a corner of a room rather than a full ensuite in a room with the wasted floor space that entails.

Yes things would be different and some people don't want different. However others would consider it if it means that they can get a home which feels like it is bigger, even if it's smaller.
 

deltic

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No one has mentioned AirBnB which has moved from letting out a spare room to letting out entire homes. There are 40,000 AirBnB in London which are entire homes, 6,000 in Edinburgh, over 2,000 in Brighton and similar numbers in other major city centres. That is a lot of homes that have been taken out of the normal residential market.
 

The Ham

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No one has mentioned AirBnB which has moved from letting out a spare room to letting out entire homes. There are 40,000 AirBnB in London which are entire homes, 6,000 in Edinburgh, over 2,000 in Brighton and similar numbers in other major city centres. That is a lot of homes that have been taken out of the normal residential market.

Whilst those numbers appear fairly large compared to their populations those numbers aren't that big, Edinburgh for instance would typically house 14,400 people in 6000 homes. This compares to a population of 482,000 (3%).

Even if all those properties had been available in the past (and my guess would be that some of them may be second homes which are now easy to let out when not needed) it wouldn't make a significant impact on the number of available homes for general living.
 
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