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Long term implications of suspending ticket checks?

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Unstoppable

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Can I ask, how are they checking tickets from a practical point of view?

In particular, are they handling people's tickets?

Potential cross-contamination of thousands of items, immediately handled by passengers (who shortly afterwards put their hands near their faces to remove masks) is a very real risk that cannot come second to a company's bottom line.
He visually inspected my E ticket. He definitely didn't seem too pleased that it took excess time to load my ticket up (surprised to see a ticket check!) myself and my companion had a carriage to ourselves with no more stops en route but we were still asked to sit across from each other at a table opposed to sitting next to each other. I'm unsure if TPE rules differ but most companies or at least on buses/coaches are allowing you to sit next to someone from the same household as you
 
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mmh

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Can I ask, how are they checking tickets from a practical point of view?

In particular, are they handling people's tickets?

Potential cross-contamination of thousands of items, immediately handled by passengers (who shortly afterwards put their hands near their faces to remove masks) is a very real risk that cannot come second to a company's bottom line.

And yet, four months in, there's not been a single news story about supermarket workers, binmen, postmen...
 

CW2

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Yesterday I travelled Crewe - Manchester - Leeds and return. Full barrier checks in operation at Crewe, Piccadilly, Victoria and Leeds, both outward and return. No on-train checks whatever. All trains fully labelled up to show which seats to use - and in 2 languages in the case of the TfW set I had on the way back.
Crewe has an annoying one-way system in operation: to exit the station you have to use the long ramps towards the southern end of the platforms to access the subway to the Weston Road exit. Fine if that's where you've parked your car, but a long walk from anywhere else.
 

Chriso

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Interesting that TPE appear to be the only TOC conducting onboard checks. I would have expected to have seen more TOC’s follow suit from Monday
 

PennineSuperb

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TPE also checking tickets on both the Cleethorpes and Scarborough services.

Good to see the Newcastle to Edinburgh route is following suit.
Revenue staff might be doing ticket inspections before departure of trains if dwell time permits and on arrival of trains. Conductors have been issued safety notices to not. Of course some Conductors may be a bit too keen.
 

Fokx

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I'm unsure if TPE rules differ but most companies or at least on buses/coaches are allowing you to sit next to someone from the same household as you

They don’t want anyone sat in the aisle seats as you are literally inches from anyone who walks past, be that staff or passenger and if it were to become a busier service, potentially you could be sat next to someone also in the aisle seat less than 1 meter away.

Amber seating labels are coming soon to show areas where ideally you shouldn’t sit, but can if together or the service is busy. So you might start to see on rows where seats are in line with each other such as the Nova 2, from window to window:

Green Red | Aisle | Amber Green
 

yorksrob

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They don’t want anyone sat in the aisle seats as you are literally inches from anyone who walks past, be that staff or passenger and if it were to become a busier service, potentially you could be sat next to someone also in the aisle seat less than 1 meter away.

Amber seating labels are coming soon to show areas where ideally you shouldn’t sit, but can if together or the service is busy. So you might start to see on rows where seats are in line with each other such as the Nova 2, from window to window:

Green Red | Aisle | Amber Green

The amber labels are an interesting development. Potentially useful for household groupings and everyone when its a bit busier.

Not surprising - of the trains I've used over the last month, TPE's have been busiest.
 

route101

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No ticket check on TPE from Edinburgh to Dunbar , no barrier or check before departure.

No checks on Scotrail this week.
 

158801

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I’m surprised no one has mentioned th3 long term implications of the role of the guard.

It can’t be too long before someone gets wind of members of staff staring out of the window all day being paid to do nothing.

Yes, they are there for safety. But with no customer interaction (revenue or customer service) I fail to see how they’re gonna really justify their jobs.

Taxi drivers can have screens. So too can checkout operators in a supermarket but how can on board ticket checks take place safely whilst maintaining any sort of social distancing ? I think this won’t happen until a vaccine is developed - and by then it could be too late for the role of the guard
 

Lancs

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Taxi drivers can have screens. So too can checkout operators in a supermarket but how can on board ticket checks take place safely whilst maintaining any sort of social distancing?
Lets think about this, one door, RPI behind screen at door.... Rather like a bus... Extend the scope of DOO?
 

virgintrain1

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I’m surprised no one has mentioned th3 long term implications of the role of the guard.

It can’t be too long before someone gets wind of members of staff staring out of the window all day being paid to do nothing.

Yes, they are there for safety. But with no customer interaction (revenue or customer service) I fail to see how they’re gonna really justify their jobs.

Taxi drivers can have screens. So too can checkout operators in a supermarket but how can on board ticket checks take place safely whilst maintaining any sort of social distancing ? I think this won’t happen until a vaccine is developed - and by then it could be too late for the role of the guard

We may never get a vaccine? So do you suggest we live out the rest of our days being scared?

I walk through the train for safety, security and customer service reasons so I don't see the harm in having a glance at tickets as walk past them.

End of the day we have to get back to normal and apply some common sense, you can't social distance on a train / aeroplane etc. Aviation and coaches are back and all the other industries where in reality social distancing is not always possible but again it seems the railway is special. Are the risks that table service in a restaurant or scanning items at a till really that different to revenue protection.
 

LowLevel

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I’m surprised no one has mentioned th3 long term implications of the role of the guard.

It can’t be too long before someone gets wind of members of staff staring out of the window all day being paid to do nothing.

Yes, they are there for safety. But with no customer interaction (revenue or customer service) I fail to see how they’re gonna really justify their jobs.

Taxi drivers can have screens. So too can checkout operators in a supermarket but how can on board ticket checks take place safely whilst maintaining any sort of social distancing ? I think this won’t happen until a vaccine is developed - and by then it could be too late for the role of the guard

We've been patrolling our trains throughout doing security checks and dealing with customer service/welfare/technical issues and just yesterday a colleague of mine spent several hours dealing with the aftermath of hitting a person at full speed while the train was repaired enough to move *shrug*

As it happens we are starting to look at reintroducing revenue duties on board on a phased basis imminently.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder the thread title is Long term implications of suspending ticket checks
 

800001

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Issue is these stations aren't TPE run. However, revenue protection may occasionally appear at Edinburgh.

TPE don't manage York, but have had ticket checks more or less the whole duration of the virus
 

Bletchleyite

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I’m surprised no one has mentioned th3 long term implications of the role of the guard.

It can’t be too long before someone gets wind of members of staff staring out of the window all day being paid to do nothing.

Without starting a DOO debate, they still have the other parts of their role - operational and safety. The role of non-revenue guards for instance (if there are any left - SWR and Merseyrail?) hasn't really changed.

What wouldn't totally surprise me would be if Northern, having fitted TVMs at pretty much all their stations now, didn't complete the set and make the cessation of on-board sales permanent. Which would of course mean no cash payment...
 

yorkie

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Without starting a DOO debate, they still have the other parts of their role - operational and safety. The role of non-revenue guards for instance (if there are any left - SWR and Merseyrail?) hasn't really changed.
The role of a Guard is indeed an operational role; some companies do indeed employ non commercial Guards who do not check/issue tickets.

Most companies do effectively combine the traditionally separate roles of Guard and ticket inspector into one role, but the former always takes priority of the latter.

But this is beyond the scope of this thread; a new thread can be created if this matter is to be discussed further.
What wouldn't totally surprise me would be if Northern, having fitted TVMs at pretty much all their stations now, didn't complete the set and make the cessation of on-board sales permanent. Which would of course mean no cash payment...
I'm reasonably sure you have created a thread previously suggesting this. If so, please use the existing thread if you wish to discuss this further. If there isn't an existing thread, please create a new one.

Does anyone have any contributions on the subject of this thread? If so, feel free to contribute below. Any other subject can be discussed in a separate thread.
 

1D54

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All good things come to an end.. Just had ticket inspection on 1A44 14:15 Man Picc - Euston.
 

John Hunt

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Getting back to the title of thread -
Even before the Covid situation, fare evasion was a problem (see the 'Disputes' section here).
Now, with the Covid factor, it seems that fare evasion is in danger of becoming the accepted 'norm' for some users of trains; if you can get away with it once, hey, let's do it again.
When (hopefully) this dire mess is all over, maybe we will see more and more prosecutions because people are used to getting away with not paying.

(Heck - 'google' fare evasion and you are presented with a list of solicitors etc. who will 'help you avoid prosecution'. Those guys will make a fortune taking on clients who haven't got a hope in hell of winning a case.)
 

317 forever

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Wasn't there going to be a "compromise" whereby a guard/inspector looks at our ticket but does not touch it?
 

Starmill

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I'm certain that a paper ticket can be checked easily by asking the customer to hold it up, or place it face up on a table.
 

clagmonster

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I’m surprised no one has mentioned th3 long term implications of the role of the guard.

It can’t be too long before someone gets wind of members of staff staring out of the window all day being paid to do nothing.

Yes, they are there for safety. But with no customer interaction (revenue or customer service) I fail to see how they’re gonna really justify their jobs.

Taxi drivers can have screens. So too can checkout operators in a supermarket but how can on board ticket checks take place safely whilst maintaining any sort of social distancing ? I think this won’t happen until a vaccine is developed - and by then it could be too late for the role of the guard
Could giving guards a perspex, visor style face shield along with their mask work?
 

Starmill

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Getting back to the title of thread -
Even before the Covid situation, fare evasion was a problem (see the 'Disputes' section here).
Now, with the Covid factor, it seems that fare evasion is in danger of becoming the accepted 'norm' for some users of trains; if you can get away with it once, hey, let's do it again.
When (hopefully) this dire mess is all over, maybe we will see more and more prosecutions because people are used to getting away with not paying.

(Heck - 'google' fare evasion and you are presented with a list of solicitors etc. who will 'help you avoid prosecution'. Those guys will make a fortune taking on clients who haven't got a hope in hell of winning a case.)
I think it’s far better if people buy tickets than are threatened with prosecution. Indeed there are many cases of extraordinarily weak private prosecutions brought, or threatened. So I disagree entirely with this and think that matters should be dealt with entirely outwith the criminal law. There is no difficulty whatsoever in lawfully denying boarding to passengers who have no ticket but must without the need to involve any offences, so I quite reject this argument.
 

John Hunt

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I think it’s far better if people buy tickets than are threatened with prosecution. Indeed there are many cases of extraordinarily weak private prosecutions brought, or threatened. So I disagree entirely with this and think that matters should be dealt with entirely outwith the criminal law. There is no difficulty whatsoever in lawfully denying boarding to passengers who have no ticket but must without the need to involve any offences, so I quite reject this argument.

Please don't get me wrong; I was not implying that we should see more prosecutions, perhaps that we may see more. I totally agree that buying tickets is better than any recourse to law.

I think the idea of denying boarding without a ticket is a good and possibly workable one - many stations have ticket barriers (Leicester does) which need a ticket to gain entry/exit to/from platforms.
Maybe an extra (even a dummy) CCTV camera with 'over the top' notices announcing presence of same would release staff to supervise stations without a barrier. Posters explaining what is happening and judicious use of social media would also help.
In the case of Leicester, that would enable South Wigston and/or Syston to be manned.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Please don't get me wrong; I was not implying that we should see more prosecutions, perhaps that we may see more. I totally agree that buying tickets is better than any recourse to law.

I think the idea of denying boarding without a ticket is a good and possibly workable one - many stations have ticket barriers (Leicester does) which need a ticket to gain entry/exit to/from platforms.
Maybe an extra (even a dummy) CCTV camera with 'over the top' notices announcing presence of same would release staff to supervise stations without a barrier. Posters explaining what is happening and judicious use of social media would also help.
In the case of Leicester, that would enable South Wigston and/or Syston to be manned.
Many stations in the London commuter belt are already barriered in this way. Many London Underground barrier lines are left visibly unattended, with one staff member for the whole station squirreled away in a control room somewhere, unbeknownst to the passenger. Be careful what you wish for!
 

John Hunt

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Many stations in the London commuter belt are already barriered in this way. Many London Underground barrier lines are left visibly unattended, with one staff member for the whole station squirreled away in a control room somewhere, unbeknownst to the passenger. Be careful what you wish for!

So - what would be the solution?
If, due to the current crisis, fare evasion increases (and it may do if face coverings become more common) the lost revenue will be enormous!
It seems to be more of a psychological problem we are facing; the Broken Windows theory does not seem to provide any answers, only increased policing and legal solutions.
Should (and could) a re-education approach be taken? Point out how evasion of fares by the few affects the many.
 

Starmill

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More station staff would be available if they were paid less. London Underground (where station staff have many roles and are highly paid) had a number of station staff shortages some time ago. London Overground and other national rail operators in Greater London have lots of underpaid agency staff hanging around doing not much. I'm sure a happy medium could be found.

Another option, again exercised by London Underground, is to reduce or close ticket office hours. These staff can then be redeployed to ticket gatelines. Unattended gatelines are already in common use too where they're at a secondary entrance, and the staff are at the primary one. Finally, a useful layout cam be to have the ticket office window immediately alongside the gateline at small stations, so one person can serve customers at the window and also, bu turning sideways, customers at the gateline.

At the moment though a lot of this is worry about nothing. Passenger numbers are so low that fare evasion isn't costing as much as it would have been previously. A certain low level of fare evasion is likely always to be tolerated by the operators, it's just nore expensive than it's worth trying to get compliance above 98%. The thread title is slightly misleading - ticket inspection was never suspended, it was just reduced for a while, is increasing again and is more likely to be taking place at a station than on a train.
 
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ValleyLines142

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Full ticket check on the 1611 Leeds to Plymouth, first one I've seen in three months (and I've been on a LOT of trains).
 
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