Journeyman
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But you're taking offence yourself. Tough. Deal with it.
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Passenger Complaint regarding Gender
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Journeyman
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Language has and always will change with culture. "Ladies and Gentlemen" is considered archaic and now non-inclusive to increasing numbers of people, especially younger folks like myself. I doubt you'd notice if you were on a train and inclusive language was used. You've probably been addressed in an inclusive way thousands of times in your life and never thought anything of it. When you have the option of offending a tiny number of people, or offending nobody, it's pretty obvious which option is preferable to me. Even if it feels insignificant.
The argument itself is typical daily mail fodder, I've generally got very little respect for people who have strong opinions on either side of this kind of debate.
What really stood out for me is that this obnoxious individual is a union rep. A union rep for the RMT is throwing a fellow member of his grade under the bus in a public forum. What chance do we have, when the people who are meant to stick up for us act like this. I'm quite surprised that this isn't more the focus of the debate on here
What really stood out for me is that this obnoxious individual is a union rep. A union rep for the RMT is throwing a fellow member of his grade under the bus in a public forum. What chance do we have, when the people who are meant to stick up for us act like this. I'm quite surprised that this isn't more the focus of the debate on here
That's the bigger issue here for me.
Someone poor member of staff out there has the "chance" to be represented by a union rep who has happily and publicly thrown another member of staff under the bus for something that clearly was meant with no malice or offense intended.
That position as a rep really should be reconsidered.
Journeyman
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*their grade
ValentaFan1974
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I tend to agree. Taking the whole pronoun thing to one side, to see an RMT rep publicly throw a colleague under the bus just to further their cause just isn’t on. They’re entitled of course to be addressed as they wish…. and I’m certainly more mindful on my PA’s these days (although I still slip the odd “ladies and gents” accidentally without consciously thinking about it - and I suddenly realise after I’ve said it).
The other thing that I think some may have issue with is the differential between gender and sex. You can assume a gender to which you are comfortable (of possibly dozens of different types) however you can only be one of two sexes, and that’s biological. The “ladies and gentlemen” could be perceived as a connotation to biological sex rather than gender and the person on the PA clearly isn’t out to offend….
Agree that its more acceptable to use inclusive greetings to make all on-board feel welcome and equally valued, but also some need to accept that the older-school generation may slip up occasionally.
The other thing that I think some may have issue with is the differential between gender and sex. You can assume a gender to which you are comfortable (of possibly dozens of different types) however you can only be one of two sexes, and that’s biological. The “ladies and gentlemen” could be perceived as a connotation to biological sex rather than gender and the person on the PA clearly isn’t out to offend….
Agree that its more acceptable to use inclusive greetings to make all on-board feel welcome and equally valued, but also some need to accept that the older-school generation may slip up occasionally.
Good point . I'd love to lay into that disgusting individual in person. But the wording wasn't meant as a cheeky dig in general !
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Any terminology is OK so long it is not offensive, homophobic or racist.
Journeyman
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You don't get to decide what someone else finds offensive, though.
Oh, and is transphobia and sexism alright?
Asking for a friend.
Journeyman
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Kinda. I don't think that changing language is tremendously hard and I accept that mistakes will be made but some practice and perhaps clear guidance from employers on this would keep them to a minimum and likely eliminate them. Increasingly public opinion among younger people especially is that biological sex is irrelevant outside of medical contexts and only gender matters and I don't think anyone has ever interpreted "Ladies and Gentlemen" to refer to those assigned at birth the sexes of female and male respectively. Even if that were the case, it's still exclusionary. 1.7% of people are born intersex, roughly the same as the number of people with red hair!
lxfe_mxtterz
Member
To be perfectly honest, I think this is absolutely ridiculous and is just nit-picking at something totally harmless and acceptable to throw an unnecessary fuss about.
Edit: And re LNER's response - "our train managers should not be using language like this" - out of context, anyone would think that the train manager has just told the passengers to "(insert expletive) off" at the final stop.
It's utterly absurd! Some people just need to get a grip.
If a common (and totally acceptable) form of address worries them so much, then God help them when they encounter actual issues...
Edit: And re LNER's response - "our train managers should not be using language like this" - out of context, anyone would think that the train manager has just told the passengers to "(insert expletive) off" at the final stop.
It's utterly absurd! Some people just need to get a grip.
If a common (and totally acceptable) form of address worries them so much, then God help them when they encounter actual issues...
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PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Every time I open my mouth to speak to somebody in future should I ask them first if they find it offensive. People have been offended through ages and they just get on with life and forget about it.
Journeyman
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Well, there's two issues here. The first is the debate around inclusive language, and the second is the way this particular situation has been handled.
I agree with you about the latter issue, but not the former.
3141
Established Member
Clearly, there isn't a consensus!Just wondered what the general consensus is regarding this news story, surrounding a member of staff addressing the passengers with Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls?
LNER apologises after staff said 'good afternoon ladies and gentlemen'
The complaint was made by a rail workers' union rep who identifies as non-binary and was travelling on the train when the manager greeted passengers using the popular phrase.www.dailymail.co.uk
Good advice for the person who made the complaint.
If someone want to announce "Good morning, everyone" instead of "...Ladies and Gentlemen", that's fine by me. But "Ladies and Gentlemen" doesn't "exclude" anybody as apparently claimed by the complainant and stated by some posts on here.
Journeyman
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Yes, you might want to consider doing that.
But it does. It just doesn't exclude you. You don't get to decide for other people. If someone feels excluded, they're excluded.
Journeyman
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That's not your decision to make, it's theirs.
lxfe_mxtterz
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I agree, but that is where the problem lies - nowadays, people will find absolutely anything to get offended at, regardless of whether it is actually a derogatory comment (which of course aren't at all acceptable) or just something as negligible as mistakenly addressing somebody as the wrong gender - or even something as completely and utterly stupid as kicking up a gargantuan fuss about "gingerbread men" because they're apparently "sexist"... Campaign to change Mansfield to Personsfield, anyone?
Journeyman
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People taking offence at "gingerbread men" are the fictional "PC brigade" that doesn't actually exist outside the fevered imaginations of Daily Mail readers.
Most people I know are forgiving of accidental misgendering. It's deliberate misgendering that's a problem. If someone politely points out that they go by a different pronoun than one you've just used, go with it in future and you'll be fine.
I agree with that, but the problem is what the guard did was entirely accidental too. He didn't sit there twirling a moustache and cackling menacingly when he saw the person who made the complaint. He didn't think, "I'll say ladies and gentlemen just to spite them because they identify as neither!". It was a remark entirely made in good faith and the idea he should be thrown under the bus for it is absurd.
As far as I'm concerned, it's all storm in a teacup stuff - virtually all of my peers wouldn't be remotely bothered by "ladies and gentlemen", and I was born pretty much at the turn of the century. The few that would be bothered because they identify as neither generally have much more pressing issues to worry about (and to be honest acting as if the phrase "ladies and gentlemen" is their biggest enemy trivialises all of those issues).
Journeyman
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Oh, I completely agree. The intent was good, and although the issue does matter, the complainant has behaved somewhat shoddily to say the least.
I feel quite strongly about this because my own gender identity is quite a complex business, and because I've frequently felt like an outsider. People I care deeply about are directly affected too, and have suffered abuse because they don't fit in neat, tidy boxes. I think it should be discussed more openly.
I agree this is a small issue in the grand scheme of things. What I don't like is people gatekeeping who is allowed to be offended, and by what. If it matters to someone, it's only fair to treat them respectfully.
Strathclyder
Established Member
While this particular incident could have been handled a lot better by all involved, I, for one, am all for inclusive language (speaking as someone in a minority in regards to sexuality). Costs nothing and requires only a small adjustment to one's vocabulary. That said, I disapprove of the guard - who had no ill will/malicious intent - being all but tossed under the nearest bus as a result. Remarkably poor form there.
To be honest, I think this is all down to ignorance rather than any deliberate attempt to offend anyone. As someone who identifies as being a gay male, I have to admit that the whole issue of trans rights is still a little bit baffling to me. I've done a fair bit for promoting gay rights in my time and I've met quite a few trans women over the years (mainly because they were cast out of "normal" society for so long and were "lumped in" with the gays and lesbians). For me it was quite easy for me to accept someone who was born as biologically male but had either transitioned to being a woman or were in the process of doing so; likewise I can understand how someone could transition from female to male.
I have to put up my hands and say that the whole non-binary thing is something that I've only really learned about within the last few years and, if I'm being really honest, it hasn't been that easy to get my head around it. It's very easy to assume "he/him", especially on a forum like this where people are essentially anonymous, but because interest in transport has mainly been considered to be a "male" pastime. I do my best to use they/them when I've no idea what gender someone uses, but old habits die hard. While many younger people may take gender fluidity in their stride it's not something I've been used to, despite the fact that I should be more open-minded than most.
It's easy to be offended and decide not to engage the offender in conversation, but until you do so and explain how things are, how are you supposed to get your message across? Screaming "Bigot!" at people isn't really helpful when they don't really know why you're calling them one.
I have to put up my hands and say that the whole non-binary thing is something that I've only really learned about within the last few years and, if I'm being really honest, it hasn't been that easy to get my head around it. It's very easy to assume "he/him", especially on a forum like this where people are essentially anonymous, but because interest in transport has mainly been considered to be a "male" pastime. I do my best to use they/them when I've no idea what gender someone uses, but old habits die hard. While many younger people may take gender fluidity in their stride it's not something I've been used to, despite the fact that I should be more open-minded than most.
It's easy to be offended and decide not to engage the offender in conversation, but until you do so and explain how things are, how are you supposed to get your message across? Screaming "Bigot!" at people isn't really helpful when they don't really know why you're calling them one.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
This is the most ridiculous complaint I have ever read. What do they expect LNER to do about this? Apparently wishing people a good morning is not a good idea anymore
Anyone who does not identify as a boy or a girl can do as they please, although people like this are certainly not doing anything to help the gender issue. Staff don’t have to be overly friendly or cheery to passengers and only paid to do their job. We should be privileged that they do it with pride and passion.
Something that has never been controversial since time began now seems to be a problem everywhere. This needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets out of hand. Just because you don’t identify as a gender that does not mean you deserve special treatment nor have the right to complain in this way
This attention seeking individual clearly has a lot of deeper issues which need to be dealt with. They should not be a union rep if this is behaviour is what they deem acceptable
Anyone who does not identify as a boy or a girl can do as they please, although people like this are certainly not doing anything to help the gender issue. Staff don’t have to be overly friendly or cheery to passengers and only paid to do their job. We should be privileged that they do it with pride and passion.
Something that has never been controversial since time began now seems to be a problem everywhere. This needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets out of hand. Just because you don’t identify as a gender that does not mean you deserve special treatment nor have the right to complain in this way
This attention seeking individual clearly has a lot of deeper issues which need to be dealt with. They should not be a union rep if this is behaviour is what they deem acceptable
221129
Established Member
So having found out a bit more background to the story, the complainant was alledgedly throwing their toys out the pram after being denied a free ride.
This fits in with this individual's previous.
This fits in with this individual's previous.
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nedchester
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Good morning ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls and attention seekers?
Oh really…..interesting…..
Good morning Gingers?!
I asked two random 16 & 19 year olds ( my kids) and they think Laurence is a prat.
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Did non binary people not exist when they tweeted this? Yes? In that case it’s very relevant as it may have caused offence and registered a complaint but probably done down official channels so as not to shame them.
For the record I understand that people identify as genders other than male and female and although I’m a dinosaur will happily do anything that includes everybody. However I feel that tweeting a complaint to publicly shame a member of staff in any form rather than going down the official channels is pathetic. It makes it particularly grating that the complainant is a rep for the union that represents the member of staff being complained about.
Applepie356
Member
Surely being a union rep he could have just made a complaint to the manager, or to the Individual behind closed doors rather than shame his colleague on social media?
It doesn’t help that LNER has basically thrown their employee under the bus as well, even though it was an honest mistake with good intentions.
Some businesses would discipline or even sack the employee for “bringing the company into disrepute”.
It doesn’t help that LNER has basically thrown their employee under the bus as well, even though it was an honest mistake with good intentions.
Some businesses would discipline or even sack the employee for “bringing the company into disrepute”.
By a train manager or more generally?
If you mean the former, doesn’t that mean that a train with 500 people on it could have a whole load of different forms of address? And how would the train manager know?
(Actually, it could be info gathered as part of the compulsory seat reservation process for LNER). Tin foil hat time
lxfe_mxtterz
Member
*If* LNER any action has taken any action against the train manager, then I am thoroughly disgusted - a totally innocent (and probably really decent, given his friendly welcome) train manager facing potential discipline as a result of his employer kneeling down to a hypocritical (see post #14) prat who decides to publicly shame him all because a friendly greeting is considered "unacceptable" by today's inconceivable standards (it really isn't).
Should I omit saying "good morning" to everyone when I get to the stables this morning in case it "offends" someone? "I'm not going to say good morning back to you because it's uninclusive and clearly does not apply to me as I'm actually having a bad morning."
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