Anonymous10
Established Member
Please remember if the users are commenting from experiences in wales its with good reason, they are causing a nightmare there. I’m surprised they are better up north but also glad.
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
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This thread is specifically about the Northern use of them.
craigybagel
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And some may think that the fact it's still newsworthy when they manage to get through a day with all 6 diagrams covered (which in itself only requires a not too taxing 75% availability) despite it being nearly 4 years since their original planned introduction date suggests there's still a long way to go.
As there will be for them. I doubt that they will replaced with 195s. Unless a diesel-electric or battery-electric bimode is delivered that can run on unelectrified lines but not contribute to CO2 or unnecessary local pollution under the wires between Bolton and Manchester, they will stay for the time originally planned, (ISTR 10 years).
Soon to be the wires between Wigan and Stalybridge. At this point it would probably be cheaper and easier to just electrify Wigan to Southport and have done with it. The 769s may be appearing reliable now, but this might have something to do with it being winter. Insufficient cooling isn’t as much of a problem in freezing temperatures outside, but will be again once it warms up.
That was 450 you saw, I was at Wigan, saw what was up with 424 and was there when it got cancelled at Wigan.
Jamesrob637
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Fault on the 06:31 Stalyvegas to Southport today so the 08:16 Southport to Alderley Edge is starting from Manchester Oxford Road.
Greybeard33
Established Member
From December 2022, the Southport - Alderley Edge service is to be split at Manchester, with Piccadilly - Alderley Edge worked by EMUs. The Southport part of the service will terminate at Manchester Oxford Road.
From the draft Northern timetables (see link below), it appears that there will be interworking at Southport between the Oxford Road and Stalybridge services. Also interworking at Stalybridge between the Southport service and the Manchester Victoria shuttle. By my calculations, the full circuit, SOP - MCO - SOP - SYB - MCV - SYB - SOP, will take 9 hours, with lengthy layovers at Southport and Victoria. Therefore 9 diagrams will be needed for the Southport services, the same as the sum of the current Alderley and Stalybridge diagrams.
Assuming that the 769s remain on the Southport routes, with a daily turnout of 6 units, 3 diagrams will still have to be worked by 4-car 150 formations. Nevertheless, this saves one DMU, compared with restoring the Stalybridge - Victoria shuttle as a standalone 150 diagram under the current timetable.
If some of the TfW 769s were to be cascaded to Northern when replaced by new stock, all the Southport diagrams could be 769 worked.
December 2022 timetable - Manchester area
Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times
47444
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Although a First In First Out at Southport does result in interworking the Stalybridge and Oxford Rd services, in fact not interworking them does not cost any more unit cycles.
SOP - MCO - SOP needs three units and SOP - SYB - MCV - SYB - SOP needs six.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Indeed so. Split diagrams might be less vulnerable to disruption in Manchester. Layovers at Southport would then be 23 and 61 minutes, versus 40 and 44 minutes for first in first out.
The Stalybridge services call at the intermediate stations under the wires between Bolton and Salford Crescent, whereas the Oxford Road services skip them. Therefore, in the interests of performance, it might be best to have all six of the Stalybridge diagrams worked by 769s, with three DMU diagrams shuttling between Southport and Oxford Road.
caught 769458 this evening at Manchester Piccadilly on 1950 Alderley Edge to Southport service and it was in diesel mode rather than 25kv , had to double check as noticed pantograph was down, run on diesel under wires , obtained a decent 71mph(using gps) on uphill climb from Salford crescent to Bolton but lost just under 2 mins on electric timings
Killingworth
Established Member
Greybeard33
Established Member
That thread discusses a diesel - battery hybrid version of the 195. "Bi mode" usually refers to electro-diesel units that can draw electrical traction power from either the OLE or diesel generators.
Exactly, - a diesel-battery drive chain is almost the worst of both worlds, - it's only justification is the allow a non-emissive entry into a sensitive zone e.g. a city centre terminal. All the energy used to drive it comes from burning hydrocarbons to make CO2, - so it does nothing to minimise its impact on climate change. There aren't any serious charging facilities for battery trains apart from electrified sections of routes so unless the train has a pantograph and transformer in addition to its electric motored bogies, it's a completre waste of time.*
* If it has all three then it is a diesel-electric MU with a battery.
Killingworth
Established Member
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
I suppose the only Green bonus is if the batteries can be charged from the unit as it slows down.
Which they can. It also means the engines can be switched off rather than idling when not needed for traction. On trips with regular stops, this can produce fuel savings in the region of 20%, not to be sniffed at.
supervc-10
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A diesel-battery hybrid (IE, without a panto) could still save a bit on fuel- just like a hybrid car does compared to a regular petrol car. But the gains are minimal, and likely much less significant than with a car as the big advantage a hybrid like a Prius has over a conventional car is in stop-start traffic.
A proper bi-mode, like the 769s or the 755s, is the best idea for Northern. As long as they work.
A proper bi-mode, like the 769s or the 755s, is the best idea for Northern. As long as they work.
As above, circa 20% isn’t ‘minimal’.
175001
Established Member
Probably due to a fault in AC mode. It's happened to me once.
This unit had issues on Saturday getting the pan up at Bolton.
It'll run OK in diesel mode all day, as long as its refuelled shortly after.
I didn't realise the 769s were proper bi-modes like the 755s.
Really? They work off the wires then switch to diesel when the wires run out, like a 755.
Indeed and could be enough, even on moderately used services, to put DMU emissions on a par with general car emissions even when the car fleet is circa 50% of vehicles are EV's.
However certainly enough to push average rail emissions to be below EV emissions in a per person per km basis.
But even with electrification progressing at it's current snail's pace, there will be fewer and fewer trains running services that don't spend a considerable amount of their journeys under wires. So a battery-diesel hybrid (probably battery-diesel-electric), multiple unit fleet would be quite a niche requirement. The additional weight, complexity and (ultimately through-life cost) of providing for full electric running under wires or over 3rd rail would make the proposed micro-fleet(s) look not particularly cost effective and more of a green gesture designed to stave off demands for electrification extensions.
I think I’m going to disagree. There are certain fleets, with life left in them, where diesel battery hybridisation can be done relatively easily and will have good benefit. Chiltern springs to mind, some of Northern, and arguably Cross Country.
Thanks for the Intel on that, wasn’t sure if it was maybe policy to avoid a failure at Bolton on the late evening services changing power at Bolton