Overnight sleeper to inverness why so long?

Just been looking at my Train app on iphone and see that the overnight sleeper leaves euston at 8.55pm and gets to inverness at 8.31am but why does it take so long?

its first stop is Stirling at 04.56am but it cant take 8 hours to get there can it?

What route does it take?

If they took the fastest route I seriously doubt they could call it a sleeper!?

The idea is that you leave at the end of the day and get to your destination for the start of the next.

QUOTE=northernrail2009;610330]Just been looking at my Train app on iphone and see that the overnight sleeper leaves euston at 8.55pm and gets to inverness at 8.31am but why does it take so long?

its first stop is Stirling at 04.56am but it cant take 8 hours to get there can it?

What route does it take?[/QUOTE]


IIRC the sleeper can only run at a max speed of 80mph to ensure a smooth ride and that you dont get woken up by movements when traversing junctions etc. Also there may be extended station dwell times and also theres the situation at Edinburgh Waverley where the train divides into 3 portions, the Inverness,Aberdeen and Fort William portions which includes several shunting moves at Waverley ie coupling on/off brake tests etc.

The route is WCML then over to Edinburgh from Carstairs where it divides as above then onto Stirling Perth and up the Highland Main Line via Aviemore. During engineering works the train can be diverted via the ECML for the whole journney and also via the Settle and Carlisle line. Im sure there are other diversionary routes it can take but im not sure off the top of my head. Hope this info helps you out. If im wrong with any of it im sure i will be corrected.

If it's non stop to Stirling, then it's being diverted via the East Coast Mainline

The Inverness portion has been cancelled due to snow blocking the line up in Scotland...

Depenmding on line closures, the Sleepers can take some very wandering routes to get to Scotland.

When I took this train (from Crewe)way back in the 70's it got into Inverness at 8.30. I remember a long stop at Perth and being able to buy a cup of tea and sandwich from a mobile unit on the platform. I remember stopping at places like Kingussie and Avemore . Looks like not much has changed! Great journey though !

scotsman said:

If it's non stop to Stirling, then it's being diverted via the East Coast Mainline

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That is the correct stopping pattern for the Euston - Inverness portion, first set down point is Stirling

northernrail2009 said:

the overnight sleeper leaves euston at 8.55pm and gets to inverness at 8.31am but why does it take so long?
its first stop is Stirling at 04.56am but it cant take 8 hours to get there can it?

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20:55 to 08:31 is just under 12 hours
20:55 to 04:56 is 8 hours
As you can see Stirling to Inverness alone takes nearly 4 hours

As above, the normal route is via Crewe, Preston, and Edinburgh
Nearly an hour is lost in Edinburgh to allow the train to split and for some recovery time

Is speed the principal factor on an overnight service?

2055 is a nice hour to depart and enjoy a drink and food in the lounge car. Or lie on the bunk and have a read.

0831 is a reasonable hour to arrive. The shops and cafes are open for breakfast, and there isn't long to wait for a connection to Kyle.

all listed diversions..

Occasionally, if the WCML is closed for engineering works, the train will use the East Coast Main Line and miss out the usual stops. The train leaves Euston as normal but with a second locomotive still attached to the back of the train. Upon arriving at Wembley Car Maintenance Depot in North London, the first locomotive is detached and the train hauled southwards again, back in the direction of London. A curve is taken to join the North London Line through Camden Road and onto the curve linking the North London Line to the East Coast Main Line near St. Pancras. After passing through Finsbury Park (heading north again), the service is run non-stop to Scotland. By entering Edinburgh Waverley station at the opposite end to normal, any further shunting is avoided, leaving the train in the "standard" arrangement.
When the Lowland Sleeper is in Edinburgh Waverley, the Glasgow portion is detached from the front and hauled back down to Motherwell and up to Glasgow Central. The Highland Sleeper is split into three portions as usual. The opposite sequence is repeated going south. Because of the reversal at Wembley and additional route length, the train is normally booked to leave an hour early on such occasions.
Engineering work on other stretches can lead to the Highlander joining up/dividing at a different locations.
Other diversions include:
Northampton: Wolverton - Hanslope Jct - Northampton - Hillmorton Jct - Rugby
Bescot: Rugby - Stechford - Aston - Bescot Stadium - Portobello Jct - Bushbury Jct - Stafford
If the East Coast is shut and part of the West Coast is shut then these diversions over non electrified lines happen:
Manchester: Crewe - Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly - Bolton - Preston
Settle: Preston - Blackburn - Clitheroe - Settle - Carlisle
Dumfries: Carlisle - Dumfries - Glasgow Central (via Larkfield to Edinburgh)
Fort William Diversions:
Oban: The last diversion to Oban took place in 2006, while class 37 locomotives were still operating this section of the sleeper service. This is unlikely to be repeated however, as the current Class 67 locomotives are barred from operating the Oban branch west from Crianlarich due to their high RA (Route Availability) rating.
Shotts: Westerton - Partick - Glasgow Central Low Level - Cambuslang - Holytown - Shotts - Edinburgh
Inverness Diversions:
Inverness - Aberdeen - Perth/Leuchars - Edinburgh
Inverness - Perth - Kirkcaldy/Cowdenbeath - Edinburgh
Aberdeen Diversions:
Aberdeen - Perth - Falkirk - Edinburgh
Via Fife Circle.

I'm someone who would rather the sleeper was a little slower! I've booked on the 16.00 from Kings + to Edinburgh, with a connection to Aberdeen, plus a hotel in Aberdeen for a trip at the end of May which came to the same price as the sleeper. I'd have rather taken the sleeper, especially as it is diverting via the ECML that night, but they chuck you out at 8am and I don't have to be at my destination until about midday!

Mojo said:

I'm someone who would rather the sleeper was a little slower!

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It can't really go any slower, in order to remain competitive

Northbound it travels between 70 and 90mph, as far as Preston, then rarely gets above 70mph
If it went slower, between Euston and Crewe, then it would conflict with faster services and so would be confined to the slow line, resulting in an earlier departure time
As a result it would be more practical to travel on one of the last Euston - Glasgow services, then stay in a hotel

Southbound it starts conflicting with early morning trains into Euston
However, this could also be avoided by running on the slow line but again an earlier departure would be required

Personally, the departure times between Inverness, Perth, Aberdeen, and Dundee are early enough!

As I am planning on taking the sleeper to Inverness in June and was planning on joining at Crewe as per the timetable, should I be concerned that my plans may be scuppered by an ECML diversion?

I.E. How early are these diversions scheduled?

Mojo said:

I'm someone who would rather the sleeper was a little slower! I've booked on the 16.00 from Kings + to Edinburgh, with a connection to Aberdeen, plus a hotel in Aberdeen for a trip at the end of May which came to the same price as the sleeper. I'd have rather taken the sleeper, especially as it is diverting via the ECML that night, but they chuck you out at 8am and I don't have to be at my destination until about midday!

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Sleeper to Inverness then 158 to Aberdeen would have got you in (from memory) around 11.30 as well as a later wake-up call. Not sure what an Advance INV-ABD would be, less than a tenner I'd imagine.

Has the Sunday/Monday 13-14 March Sleeper taken the Coventry - Aston - Stafford route diversion? Heard a train dash past sometime before 1am.

Posted in error

used the sleeper back in January and enjoyed the trip, hope to do it again soon wish it was a bit Longer to get a bit more sleep

Only thing I would have to improve the sleeper apart from WiFi is to have a power socket in the berths and by the seats in in the seating coach.

Small improvemements but what would make a big difference otherwise why not introduce VOLO like FGW has done on their service?

The train can go 100mph maximum. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if it does as it nearly always arrives early up the WCML. Actually, I heard in places it is timetabled for 100mph. Wouldnt surprise me if it goes 100 between Crewe and London.

However, why does it take so long. Well, as mentioned, its not designed to be fast. It has plenty of slack time in the timetable, and is always, as mentioned, arriving early on the WCML, esp Northbound. Southbound it usually arrives off Preston 20mins early. The times ive used it recently its always been held at signals outside the station. But it can go in early, and assuming all joining crew are there, it will leave early.

North of Edinburgh, all the stops, and speed restrictions on the FW leg, make it a slow journey, but again, its fine as it doesnt need to be fast.

Also, you mentioned the first stop being Stirling. Yes, the first dropping off point. Remember the picking up stops at Watford, Crewe and Preston though. I think it picks up at Watford anyway. Certainly it stopped there last time, unless it was signals.
Then, as mentioned, the time it sits in Edinburgh.

The 100mph booking is south of Rugby in the up direction.

Don't know if either northbound does the same, but the 21.15 does have a 390 some distance behind it.

It is timetabled so you can get to your destination at a reasonable time. Perth, for example you get in at 0540, Dundee about 0600, this means most local buses are about to start running, some shops will be opening etc. I'm sure the sleeper could arrive in Aberdeen at 0500, Inverness at 0600, but whats the point of getting to Dundee or Perth at 0330?

For me I usually get the Sleeper from Kirkcaldy, at 2353 and get the Edinburgh sleeper North as the Aberdeen portion gets into Kirkcaldy just a wee bit too early for me.

junglejames said:

The train can go 100mph maximum. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if it does as it nearly always arrives early up the WCML. Actually, I heard in places it is timetabled for 100mph. Wouldnt surprise me if it goes 100 between Crewe and London

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As above, the train is permitted to 100mph, but it hardly reaches that, but when it does it's not for very long
There is also little opportunity north of Preston, drivers are aware they should not exceed 80mph (unless over 1 hour late)
North of Edinburgh there is virtually no opportunity to take advantage of 100mph, most of the speed limits are typically 50 to 80mph
It then gets even worse between Helensburgh and Fort William, the Class 67 loco ironically becomes the limiting factor

junglejames said:

The train can go 100mph maximum. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if it does as it nearly always arrives early up the WCML. Actually, I heard in places it is timetabled for 100mph. Wouldnt surprise me if it goes 100 between Crewe and London.

However, why does it take so long. Well, as mentioned, its not designed to be fast. It has plenty of slack time in the timetable, and is always, as mentioned, arriving early on the WCML, esp Northbound. Southbound it usually arrives off Preston 20mins early. The times ive used it recently its always been held at signals outside the station. But it can go in early, and assuming all joining crew are there, it will leave early.

North of Edinburgh, all the stops, and speed restrictions on the FW leg, make it a slow journey, but again, its fine as it doesnt need to be fast.

Also, you mentioned the first stop being Stirling. Yes, the first dropping off point. Remember the picking up stops at Watford, Crewe and Preston though. I think it picks up at Watford anyway. Certainly it stopped there last time, unless it was signals.
Then, as mentioned, the time it sits in Edinburgh.

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The Northbound service now makes an open stop at Carlisle 0153-0155 Monday, 0215-0216 Tuesday to Saturday.

The Southbound service now makes an open stop at Carlisle 0251-0253 Monday, 0255-0256 Tuesday to Saurday.

The Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh and v/v services also make open stops at Warrington and Preston Northbound, and Preston, Warrington and Rugby Southbound.

Check the 18 February reissue of table 65 for details.

Diverting via the ECML is now not so straight forward.

CNX said:

The Northbound service now makes an open stop at Carlisle 0153-0155 Monday, 0215-0216 Tuesday to Saturday.

The Southbound service now makes an open stop at Carlisle 0251-0253 Monday, 0255-0256 Tuesday to Saurday.

The Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh and v/v services also make open stops at Warrington and Preston Northbound, and Preston, Warrington and Rugby Southbound.

Check the 18 February reissue of table 65 for details.

Diverting via the ECML is now not so straight forward.

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What's an open stop?

reb0118 said:

What's an open stop?

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On where you can board and alight compared to set down only (you can only leave the train not join) or a pick up only (you can only join the train not leave).

ainsworth74 said:

On where you can board and alight compared to set down only (you can only leave the train not join) or a pick up only (you can only join the train not leave).

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Thought that. The additional stops on the Lowland Sleeper don't make any sense though?

rail-britain said:

As above, the train is permitted to 100mph, but it hardly reaches that, but when it does it's not for very long
There is also little opportunity north of Preston, drivers are aware they should not exceed 80mph (unless over 1 hour late)
North of Edinburgh there is virtually no opportunity to take advantage of 100mph, most of the speed limits are typically 50 to 80mph
It then gets even worse between Helensburgh and Fort William, the Class 67 loco ironically becomes the limiting factor

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Well obviously North Of Preston chance would be a fine thing. I was thinking of south of Preston.
All i know is south of Crewe southbound the train is usually going at a fair lick.
Yes, the 67 on the WHL is awfully restricted. Out of interest, did the timetable have to be changed when the 67s took over this part?