Exactly. 442s or 458s were only necessary if there were service increases which seems unlikely now. Even returning to the 2019 timetable seems unlikely, and that was run with only a few 442 diagrams in theory. In practice they were covered with Desiros more often than not, and there would be more 450s available off the Windsor lines. If you needed more 450s you could probably convert the peak Woking stopping services to 10-701 from 12-450 too.
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SWR Class 458 to be retained
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norbitonflyer
Established Member
Most of the cost was absorbed in converting the former Class 460 cars (although even then corners were cut, such as retaining the two different types of glazing), and in rebuilding the cabs - probably the most expensive bit but operationally the most important, as I understand the units as originally designed could not be coupled or uncoupled except in a depot, and certainly not in a five-minute station stop at places like Woking where services divide and rejoin routinely.
Is there any truth in the rumour that there was a misunderstanding between Alstom and SWT about the specification?
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
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I’m sure that’s the only place 110 mph has ever been mentioned, so I call typo… But that was 2021, anything about extra Portsmouth Direct services is water under the bridge now.This time it's a £25 million contract
Refurbishment for SWR's Class 458 trains thanks to new contract between Porterbrook and Alstom
Porterbrook has announced that South Western Railway's (SWR) fleet of Modern Railway’s ‘Golden Spanner awards’ winning Class 458 will undergo major improvements following a new deal with Alstom.www.railadvent.co.uk
Big Jumby 74
Member
The gangways had to be rebuilt to allow easier use of. The original design was a dinosaur and to deploy same could take in region of 20-25 minutes, and was restricted to on depot activity by fitters. Main line drivers would never have been involved. Hence why the (458/0) were always diagrammed in pairs on the Readings and peak time Farnham via Ascot services. The exception was the Guildford-Ascot shuttle, where 4 car 458/0 did run, but the diagrams covering this route were largely self contained from/to Farnham/Guildford, with a changeover diagram built in to the plan, that allowed a unit swap from/to Wimbledon depot each day. This diagram was at one time a Richmond start, then latterly a Clapham Jn Windsor side start IIRC, running to Guildford via Ascot, having started from Wimbledon depot.
Is the cab adequate? No. So this logic falls at the first hurdle.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Were it not adequate, there would have been serious concerns about driving the 458/5s not limited to 458/4s.
There already are. The cab environment is far from pleasant.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
How did that come about? Joining/dividing corridor stock in stations has been a feature of the Southern Electric's timetables since the 1930s.
WarrenTManager
Member
I think it’s a bit harsh to call leaving the ribbon glazing as corner cutting, more project saving. You can’t mess with the structural aspect of a carriage!
Goldfish62
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Indeed. You can see on the inside that the window frames are different.
Big Jumby 74
Member
I have no idea about the history of the 458/0 design back in the 90's, but suspect the operations Dept. insisted on maintaining a through gangway. But the cab front design (sloped) and I suspect other in-cab build measures, reduced the width of space available for the gangway - many will remember how narrow the passage was - and I guess this is why the overall design for same was so different from the older slam door stock gangways, and far more complex. It was what it was!
Slight correction - faded memory time - the swap over scenario mentioned above relates to 456 days. When the Guildford-Ascots were 4 car 458, the changeover was via two weekday 'Q' (as required) moves, a 21+11 SX Aldershot to Wimbledon Depot and a 22+49 SX Wimbledon Depot to Guildford.
Juniper Driver
Established Member
I've managed for the last 16 years.The 456s were worse.
They were. They were less windy though. Holes galore all around you on a 458
In post 2205, Snow1964 states:
A refresh is livening up and boosting condition
A renovation is restoring to good usable condition
A refurbishment is enhancing to increase value or lifespan
Routine repainting, and renewing worn flooring and covers is not refurbishing
.
I completely agree with this, and would add that in BR days there were laid down repair standards, C1, C2, C3, C6 which clearly laid down what was done - nowadays anything seems to go depending upon what is actually specified each time a repair is required ! Some people even within the industry seem to regard a simple lick of paint and a clean up as "refurbishment" - this of course is sheer rubbish !!
A refresh is livening up and boosting condition
A renovation is restoring to good usable condition
A refurbishment is enhancing to increase value or lifespan
Routine repainting, and renewing worn flooring and covers is not refurbishing
.
I completely agree with this, and would add that in BR days there were laid down repair standards, C1, C2, C3, C6 which clearly laid down what was done - nowadays anything seems to go depending upon what is actually specified each time a repair is required ! Some people even within the industry seem to regard a simple lick of paint and a clean up as "refurbishment" - this of course is sheer rubbish !!
Goldfish62
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Indeed. I remember when SWT put their VEPs and CIGs through overhaul and they came back with red seats and repainted window frames. Little was said. No doubt these days that would be claimed to be a refurbishment!
WarrenTManager
Member
The only fleet I considered a refurb was 456 green to red. 458s have been conversions from 4 to 5 and back to 4. And 455s and 458s have have had C4 and C6 overhauls to varying degrees over my years.
Goldfish62
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I would also classify SWT's splendid work on the 455s as a refurb. The work was at least as comprehensive as that on the 456s.
Agree that the 458 4 to 5 car conversion was most definitely not a refurbishment!
Big Jumby 74
Member
Perhaps because there were mechanical/electrical reasons the two versions were unable to work together during the re-introduction to SW metals.
Understand where you come from, but you may have thought differently had you been involved in the project coal face with Wabtec at Doncaster - knowing the amount of grief experienced with that early part of the rebuild.....but that's all water under the bridge now, so I won't go on!
randompixel
Member
Surely it is "water between the window panes" on the 458s
spark001uk
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Who remembers the green half-height seats in the 455s as-built?
Goldfish62
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Yes, not particularly comfortable, and the scrotes quickly found out that the cushions were easily detachable to be thrown out of the window.
Water-rust mix, surely?
Mikey C
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Whenever people moan about the terrible seating of modern trains and hark back to the good old days of BR, I think back to the 455s and the similar seats on the PEPs...
WarrenTManager
Member
The Green 456 seats were getting lobbed out on the Ascots. We had to get more from Wolverton when they were being stripped for the refurb.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Yes I was only about 12 or 13 but remember the seats were absolutely strewn over the carriage each time I used them (four or five times a week, sometimes more)
Chat today as part of the 701 launch was that the 458s are set to go on to Basingstoke/Alton stoppers rather than Pompey expresses as it cuts down on training time whilst still making use of their new gearing along the mainline.
Also suggested that no one cares about the Pompey Direct improvement with general feeling that going back to a fourth service per hour won’t happen. Displaced 450s from Basingstoke will eventually be used to strengthen mainline services rather than increase extra services.
Also suggested that no one cares about the Pompey Direct improvement with general feeling that going back to a fourth service per hour won’t happen. Displaced 450s from Basingstoke will eventually be used to strengthen mainline services rather than increase extra services.
DelW
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458s were supposed to be about improving the quality rather than the frequency on the Direct, by removing the unsuitable 450s from Portsmouth services.
Four per hour (via Guildford) were promised but never happened. Post Covid the longstanding three per hour were cut to two, which they still are - indeed more like one-and-a-half, since the slow arrives in Pompey only about 15 minutes before the following semifast.
"No-one cares about the Pompey Direct" certainly sums up SWR's attitude to the line. I'm not sure it's much better on their other routes though.
From a crewing point of view that makes sense, but doesn’t address the issues raised with 2+3 seating on the direct. I’m still not sure they will enter service, especially as there appears to be no funds forthcoming to improve the cabs.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
So they’ve changed their mind about not using them?
greaterwest
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Off peak, there were 4 fast trains per hour to Guildford before COVID. 2 fast and 1 slow to Portsmouth, and 1 Haslemere stopper. Now we have 1 fast and 1 slow Portsmouth, and the Haslemere stopper.