Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

PTR 444 said:

But surely more people would want to visit the city centre and its maritime quarter rather than a suburb with its footballl ground?

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City centre is basically a student village now. Fratton is the busiest based on it being the most appropriate station for about half of Portsmouth residents.

pompeyfan said:

I haven’t spoken to the person involved since October so it may now be out of date, so might be worth baring in mind.

The Brighton service was listed as Portsmouth & Southsea.

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Your info is likely more accurate than mine, even if older. Mine was from an OBS so pinch of salt.

Imo this sounds like a great compromise. May not be the fastest but you can still change at Barnham

PGAT said:

Imo this sounds like a great compromise. May not be the fastest but you can still change at Barnham

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The timetable in the first place appeared to have been written around short changes at Barnham for Brighton to Portsmouth journeys, so I am not sure what extending a Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton service on to Fratton really gives extra.

The point of the changes was to use the four units currently doing the Littlehampton to Bognor / Portsmouth stopping services in a better way at the Brighton end where there is more demand. Putting in an extra train between Chichester and Fratton doesn't seem like a good use of rolling stock, given there would still be four trains an hour over the Chichester to Havant stretch without it.

Yeah but the main dealbreaker for these proposals is a lack of Portsmouth - Brighton direct. I assume bringing those in allows all the other beneficial effects from the other services to come in.

JonathanH said:

The point of the changes was to use the four units currently doing the Littlehampton to Bognor / Portsmouth stopping services in a better way at the Brighton end where there is more demand. Putting in an extra train between Chichester and Fratton doesn't seem like a good use of rolling stock, given there would still be four trains an hour over the Chichester to Havant stretch without it.

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Basically robbing Peter to pay Paul because the DfT has scrapped too much rolling stock.

JonathanH said:

The timetable in the first place appeared to have been written around short changes at Barnham for Brighton to Portsmouth journeys, so I am not sure what extending a Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton service on to Fratton really gives extra.

The point of the changes was to use the four units currently doing the Littlehampton to Bognor / Portsmouth stopping services in a better way at the Brighton end where there is more demand. Putting in an extra train between Chichester and Fratton doesn't seem like a good use of rolling stock, given there would still be four trains an hour over the Chichester to Havant stretch without it.

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The smaller station stops can go back to the Brighton stopper and speed back up the Fratton-Chichester portion on at least one Victoria service.

yorksrob said:

Basically robbing Peter to pay Paul because the DfT has scrapped too much rolling stock.

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Older rolling stock has often been scrapped after a fall in passenger numbers, as in the case of the early 90s recession. The older stock was life expired anyway, especially the 313s.

The problem is that until demand picks up again the Treasury will not want to pay for new stock.

moley said:

I can't remember if it was 2 or 3 units being saved by better turnaround times and dropping the third Chichester - Portsmouth service. One of these will now be needed for the third service to Portsmouth.

There were due to be 2 Chichester stoppers per hour, only one will continue to Portsmouth. What seems to be up for discussion is where they terminate in Portsmouth. The proposal had put both services going to the Harbour. With the third service coming back, certain that all three won't be pathed beyond Portsmouth & Southsea. Indeed, one suggestion was that one service may terminate at Fratton platform 2 with good onward timetabled connections. Especially now that Fratton is the busiest station in Portsmouth.

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According to the proposal, does that mean that one of the stopping services from Brighton (via Littlehampton) will pick up all of the smaller and quieter stations between Chichester and Havant, crushing their dreams of direct services to London if this is confirmed?

moley said:

The proposal had put both services going to the Harbour. With the third service coming back, certain that all three won't be pathed beyond Portsmouth & Southsea. Indeed, one suggestion was that one service may terminate at Fratton platform 2 with good onward timetabled connections. Especially now that Fratton is the busiest station in Portsmouth.

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If this happens I hope that Southern will look at their Advance tickets policy. Currently they don't allow the use of SWR connections from Portsmouth Harbour to Portsmouth & Southsea. If some are turning round at Fratton this issue will be amplified, especially as Fratton isn't (as far as i am aware) part of the Portsmouth Stations group.

cav1975 said:

If this happens I hope that Southern will look at their Advance tickets policy. Currently they don't allow the use of SWR connections from Portsmouth Harbour to Portsmouth & Southsea.

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It would be extremely unlikely that Southern only advance tickets would be amended to allow SWR trains between Fratton and the other Portsmouth stations. It seems somewhat impractical given the Southern only restriction is needed on the rest of the route.

However, the suggestion only appears to be that a stopping service terminates at Fratton, not the main services from London.

cav1975 said:

If this happens I hope that Southern will look at their Advance tickets policy. Currently they don't allow the use of SWR connections from Portsmouth Harbour to Portsmouth & Southsea. If some are turning round at Fratton this issue will be amplified, especially as Fratton isn't (as far as i am aware) part of the Portsmouth Stations group.

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JonathanH said:

It would be extremely unlikely that Southern only advance tickets would be amended to allow SWR trains between Fratton and the other Portsmouth stations. It seems somewhat impractical given the Southern only restriction is needed on the rest of the route.

However, the suggestion only appears to be that a stopping service terminates at Fratton, not the main services from London.

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The ’Southern only’ restriction on advance tickets is particularly annoying if the xx29 train to Brighton from the Harbour is cancelled, as is often the case when services are stopped short to recover the timetable. (These are useful trains for passengers from the IW, giving a connection from the ferry robust enough to be reliable for advance ticket purposes).

If there is a cancellation, are we really expected to wait an hour or more for the next Southern service? In practice, I will take the xx15 SWR service to Havant (if there is one) or the xx23 GWR service to Cosham, to pick up my planned Southern service to Victoria (incidentally, saving Southern a delay repay claim). I have rarely been ticket-checked on these connections, and when I was I only received the standard reminder to change on to the Southern.

Similarly, in the other direction, if the Southern train is stopped short at Havant, Fratton or Portsmouth & Southsea, I cannot believe that we are really expected to wait for the next Southern train to get us to the Harbour.

Rather than a ‘Southern only’ restriction, would it not be possible to apply a route limitation - via Barnham or Three Bridges - to ensure that these tickets are used as intended?

hermit said:

The ’Southern only’ restriction on advance tickets is particularly annoying if the xx29 train to Brighton from the Harbour is cancelled, as is often the case when services are stopped short to recover the timetable. (These are useful trains for passengers from the IW, giving a connection from the ferry robust enough to be reliable for advance ticket purposes).

If there is a cancellation, are we really expected to wait an hour or more for the next Southern service? In practice, I will take the xx15 SWR service to Havant (if there is one) or the xx23 GWR service to Cosham, to pick up my planned Southern service to Victoria (incidentally, saving Southern a delay repay claim). I have rarely been ticket-checked on these connections, and when I was I only received the standard reminder to change on to the Southern.

Similarly, in the other direction, if the Southern train is stopped short at Havant, Fratton or Portsmouth & Southsea, I cannot believe that we are really expected to wait for the next Southern train to get us to the Harbour.

Rather than a ‘Southern only’ restriction, would it not be possible to apply a route limitation - via Barnham or Three Bridges - to ensure that these tickets are used as intended?

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Why would you expect a Southern only ticket that is priced by Southern (for which they get 100% of the revenue) to be valid on SWR or GWR services?

If you want flexibility you need to get one of the many inter available tickets that exist, the reason your ticket is cheaper is because it has restrictions.

If your journey is delayed Southern will compensate you.

It’s no different to a bus ticket. If you have a return ticket for Stagecoach but the bus starts short would you expect your ticket to be valid on Arriva etc?

HamworthyGoods said:

Why would you expect a Southern only ticket that is priced by Southern (for which they get 100% of the revenue) to be valid on SWR or GWR services?

If you want flexibility you need to get one of the many inter available tickets that exist, the reason your ticket is cheaper is because it has restrictions.

If your journey is delayed Southern will compensate you.

It’s no different to a bus ticket. If you have a return ticket for Stagecoach but the bus starts short would you expect your ticket to be valid on Arriva etc?

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Where you have a journey of train A followed by train B...

If you have no chance of making train B because the train you are on is delayed, then section 9.4 of the NCoC applies:

Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an “advance” Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.

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Note this very specifically requires a delay not (part) cancellation.

However otherwise section 28.2 of the NCoC applies:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination...

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A cancellation will prevent you from completing your journey therefore this section must apply. This section would also apply if there is no further train which could complete the journey in line with section 9.4.

moley said:

Where you have a journey of train A followed by train B...

If you have no chance of making train B because the train you are on is delayed, then section 9.4 of the NCoC applies:

Note this very specifically requires a delay not (part) cancellation.

However otherwise section 28.2 of the NCoC applies:

A cancellation will prevent you from completing your journey therefore this section must apply. This section would also apply if there is no further train which could complete the journey in line with section 9.4.

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Which seems to point you to taking the next service with that train company?

I general, based on these issues with cancellations and advance tickets, which really could end up being the future with the announcement that LNER will get rid of off-peak tickets, which could go national were the current government to pull and upset and remain in power, I think that terminating at Fratton is simply a bad idea. While it is the busiest, Portsmouth has for a number of years been one of the cities which doens't have a single station that dominates passengers by far. Portsmouth & Southsea used to be (until around 2005) by looking through old stats, but more recently, Fratton, Portsmouth & Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour have all had very similar passenger numbers. I have often thought that terminating at Portsmouth & Southsea as it is is one of those weird things, particularly since Portsmouth Harbour at the time the busiest, so its essentially serving all stations except the busiest (pre-pandemic). I've since looked into further stats and other information (including technical information), and i do get it more now, but based on that logic, terminating at Fratton is just ridiculous, because it only has around a third of all passengers in Portsmouth, while if you include Portsmouth & Southsea as well, you do at least serve around two thirds of all passengers in Portsmouth. I get why you can't serve Portsmouth Harbour however, simply because theres probably not enough capacity. In addition, the journey times will be long enough, so they'll get a bit more turnaround time at Portsmouth & Southsea. In general, I think Portsmouth & Southsea is the best option, and a direct, albeit slower service to Brighton, in exchange for a better service to London, and no loss of services to Littlehampton now (which isn't really a Portsmouth commuter town as it is a Portsmouth visitor town, so not so important compared to Brighton). In general, I was hoping this type of U-turn would be made, particularly when Network Rail said in that 2020 report that such a service (Brighton to Portsmouth & Southsea (presumably)) was feasible. While the loss of London Victoria services in Southampton is a slight loss, its already impractical as a viable alternative to SWR anyways, and running for Gatwick Airport only is obviously not viable) In general, this should be implemented, and I look forward to hearing more possibly.

The track access changes application is now on the Network rail website. As well as form P the relevant appendices are available to download including the business plan and performance modelling.

In addition to the timetable enhancements highlighted in the Benefits section of this paper, the following changes to the proposed timetable are now proposed:

• Retention of direct trains between Brighton and Portsmouth & Southsea. This train will run hourly throughout the day performing the needs of a local and regional connectivity. This reduces the number of trains via Littlehampton and the number of shunt movements required at Chichester highlighted as a performance risk. The number of through Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton (operationally linked) is substantially reduced from 2tph (all day) to 1tph (daytimes only). Outside these times trains will operate between Brighton-West Worthing and Littlehampton-Chichester (or Bognor Regis) only closely matching demand. Additional running time has been given between Brighton and Angmering addressing predicted loss of time in running through extended dwell times. This directly addresses stakeholder comments received throughout the route.
• There will be calling pattern changes between Chichester and Portsmouth including a retention of all stations and semi-fast services. Bedhampton will no longer be served except for early morning and late evening trains. This will assist in protecting the London to Portsmouth service group. This directly addresses stakeholder comments received throughout the route.

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Very interesting reading, and I owe an apology to one forum member regarding the use of 387s on the Southampton route.

The document doesn’t mention whether there will still be occasional route retention trains via Eastleigh that become useful during service disruption.

pompeyfan said:

Very interesting reading, and I owe an apology to one forum member regarding the use of 387s on the Southampton route.

The document doesn’t mention whether there will still be occasional route retention trains via Eastleigh that become useful during service disruption.

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There will still be 2 trains a day via Eastleigh, an Empty from Littlehampton (5N08) in the morning and 1Y99 23 11 Southampton - Littlehampton

LA50041 said:

There will still be 2 trains a day via Eastleigh, an Empty from Littlehampton (5N08) in the morning and 1Y99 23 11 Southampton - Littlehampton

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Thank you for confirming.

Is there any news on any knock on changes to GWR or SWR timings on the Netley line? I think it was mentioned in the original consultation that minor tweaks might be necessary. As many will know already the 3 fast trains normally run in a fairly tight group, SN - GWR - SN at about xx39-xx47-xx55.

Verulamius said:

The track access changes application is now on the Network rail website. As well as form P the relevant appendices are available to download including the business plan and performance modelling.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/30.01.2024%20-%20Govia%20Thameslink%20Railway%20Ltd%20-%20Section%2022%20-%2060th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Form%20P%20-%20GTR%2060th%20SA.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/30.01.2024%20-%20Govia%20Thameslink%20Railway%20Ltd%20-%20Section%2022%20-%2060th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Appendix%20A%20West%20Coastway%20business%20case%20-%20v3.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/30.01.2024%20-%20Govia%20Thameslink%20Railway%20Ltd%20-%20Section%2022%20-%2060th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Appendix%20E%20Performance%20modelling%20and%20interventions.pdf

View attachment 151462

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The last two files have now disappeared from the website. Mysterious!

But it’s sounds like a good change following the consultation last year to change one of the Brighton to Chichester via Littlehamptons into a Brighton to Portsmouth direct service.

Big bonus too for the people in goring etc that they can now go to Chichester without having to go via Littlehampton.

pompeyfan said:

Very interesting reading, and I owe an apology to one forum member regarding the use of 387s on the Southampton route.

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Really they ought to put them in Southern livery then. As it stands, the only trains on the Coastway branded "Gatwick" will be the only trains that don't serve it! The 2tph up there will all be 377s.

TT-ONR-NRN said:

Really they ought to put them in Southern livery then. As it stands, the only trains on the Coastway branded "Gatwick" will be the only trains that don't serve it! The 2tph up there will all be 377s.

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Good point, although I have a feeling based on those sources that they are going to use some of Great Northern's class 387s rather than the GX 387s, and the great northern fleet is generally plainer, and doesn't have Gatwick written all over it. That said, I have no doubt they'll substitute the odd GX unit from time to time.

LCRTrainfan979 said:

Good point, although I have a feeling based on those sources that they are going to use some of Great Northern's class 387s rather than the GX 387s, and the great northern fleet is generally plainer, and doesn't have Gatwick written all over it. That said, I have no doubt they'll substitute the odd GX unit from time to time.

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As I understand it, the first ones to be used on the BTN-SOU will be green ex-GWR 387's, although red ones may also be used if required

LA50041 said:

As I understand it, the first ones to be used on the BTN-SOU will be green ex-GWR 387's, although red ones may also be used if required

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Mmmm, am I right, they`ll use 387s on Brigton to Southampton and those ones will be ex-GWR 387s which are now used by Great Northern? Or those will be used amongst `usual` GatEx 387s? Have or have ever had 387172-174 DC third rail shoes?

How many 387s will be needed for the Brighton - Southampton diagrams and how does this stack up compared with the amount of new 387s Southern is receiving?

PGAT said:

How many 387s will be needed for the Brighton - Southampton diagrams and how does this stack up compared with the amount of new 387s Southern is receiving?

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7 or 8 will be required. How many 387s Great Northern could transfer to Southern? 3 ex-GWR 387172-174 and 387201 ex-GatEx.

PGAT said:

How many 387s will be needed for the Brighton - Southampton diagrams and how does this stack up compared with the amount of new 387s Southern is receiving?

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From the start of the June TT (stage 0) only 2 diagrams are converted to 387’s, the rest are still 377’s. This will obviously increase as the cascade from GN progresses

Do the GWR ones even have shoes? I know a few did for testing, and I’d imagine it’s relatively straight forward

pompeyfan said:

Do the GWR ones even have shoes? I know a few did for testing, and I’d imagine it’s relatively straight forward

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I’m pretty sure a previous discussion mentioned they all were, and are still fitted. A few random youtube videos uploaded within the last couple of years, (that I’ve just checked), definitely show shoebeams present, but the shoes themselves are effectively hidden if raised.