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Could they not just transfer the Liberty line to MTR and make it a shuttle branch of the Elizabeth line? That would be one less LO line to worry about naming/colouring.
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London Overground line names announced
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OvergroundMatt
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I wasn’t that wild about the names to begin with but they’re growing on me. Particularly given the nature of the fury against them, which is so objectively rooted in the deep-seated desire amongst a small but vocal section of British society not to be reminded of any kind of “difference” or challenge to the accepted order of things.
My local line will be the Mildmay, a fitting tribute to the hospice that took in dying AIDS patients when others wouldn’t, in a dark time that robbed LGBT people like me of a generation of mentors and role models. I couldn’t give a toss that doesn’t go near the site of the hospice itself, but it does go right through the area from which the hospice took its name.
As John Bull wrote on LondonReconnections today, visibility matters.
My local line will be the Mildmay, a fitting tribute to the hospice that took in dying AIDS patients when others wouldn’t, in a dark time that robbed LGBT people like me of a generation of mentors and role models. I couldn’t give a toss that doesn’t go near the site of the hospice itself, but it does go right through the area from which the hospice took its name.
As John Bull wrote on LondonReconnections today, visibility matters.
I did suggest the following to some friends:
Charles
William
George
Charlotte
Louis
Harry
Those being the King and the next 5 in line to the throne.
I wasn't being entirely serious though.
306024
Established Member
I always thought it was an enthusiast's term. Given how much outrage there is on here at the other names, Goblin (a small, imaginary, usually ugly creature who plays tricks on people, according to one definition) would be and sound just plain awful. The user group are spot on. Professional rail staff of a certain age call it the T&H, Tottenham and Hampstead, but that doesn’t help.
Romford shopping centre, which was new back in the 1960s, has been known as the Liberty since it was built.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Agree.
How about the Baden-Powell Line? Chingford is the station for Gilwell Park, the home of Scouting.
The updated tube map (whist hideously messy) will be better to help identify routes more quickly.
I can't help but think the key needs some work, though. The use of a London Overground header, but not the same for the Underground is confusing, for example.
I can't help but think the key needs some work, though. The use of a London Overground header, but not the same for the Underground is confusing, for example.
announcements
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Yes, it is true to say there have been some voices taking the anti-woke view in opposition of this press announcement but that does not mean you must change your mind to go against such fury. I hate to use the picking a football team to support mentality analogy whereby: you either have to support Sadiq's choices at all cost because in not doing so you'll be associated with this anti-woke crowd; or you go against Sadiq at all costs because you cannot get past the Woke names. It shouldn't be like this. It is more nuanced than that. [this isn't me having a go at you, this is just a general frustration I have with this whole woke vs non woke agenda]
There have been plenty of reasonable points made on here, LR and other forums against what is being proposed. Questioning and debating the names, seeking alternatives, is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Or even asking questions such as why not split the Weaver line? Why settle upon the colours chosen? How will it be funded? Did we need to rename them in the first place? Has what is being proposed achieved optimum simplicity?
I appreciate the sentiment with Mildmay, but concerns have been raised about the geography, the name not rolling off the tongue and its chosen colour. Similarly, concerns have been raised about the name Lioness being too 'in the moment' not simply because it is a female team. There have also been concerns around the Weaver and Liberty lines being thin on background justification.
TfL have played an absolute blinder in marketing terms, all the press is talking about it, this thread has gained 18 pages of chatter about it.
If they had numbered/lettered the lines they would have had to have spent a fortune to get the same level of awareness with the public.
Everyone knows it means I don't like something but want to be able to name call you if you disagree with me, with the added bonus of the fear of the name calling meaning that others will likely agree with me.
As I suggested it's likely that more money would have had to have been spent to advertise the change to get even 1/100th of the coverage that it's had.
Although I do fear that it may have caused the NHS some extra work due to significantly rising the blood pressure of sensitive types (oh, no, sorry NHS, I've just made your work even harder!!!!)
If they had numbered/lettered the lines they would have had to have spent a fortune to get the same level of awareness with the public.
Everyone knows it means I don't like something but want to be able to name call you if you disagree with me, with the added bonus of the fear of the name calling meaning that others will likely agree with me.
As I suggested it's likely that more money would have had to have been spent to advertise the change to get even 1/100th of the coverage that it's had.
Although I do fear that it may have caused the NHS some extra work due to significantly rising the blood pressure of sensitive types (oh, no, sorry NHS, I've just made your work even harder!!!!)
contrex
Member
Although I like to think of myself as progressive, and although I think of the word 'woke' as a dog-whistle slur used by right-wingers, I was a bit taken aback at these line names. Your admirable comment had helped to convince me that they are a good thing. Thank you.
I am put, a bit, in mind of some Paris Métro station names - Louise Michel (Communard and anarchist) on line 3, and the recent Barbara (singer) and Bagneux–Lucie Aubrac on line 4. Aubrac was a member of the French Resistance during World War II.
Busaholic
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Not that I want to see any new names, but if one has to be used for a line passing Wembley Stadium, surely the Geoff Hurst celebrating the one remaining living member of the 1966 World Cup winning squad should be it? I seem to remember the Lionesses didn't win anything, despite all the hype. Oh well, maybe we can only aspire to be second best now.
They did, 2022.
From the video linked above there will be a confusing mix of line names and 'overground'. Some direction signs just using the orange roundel means that someone told to get the Weaver line will need to know that it is the Overground (and not Underground etc)
dcsprior
Member
IIRC, the lionesses did win the Euros? And naming it Lioness Line is less likely to annoy Scots (and presumably Welsh and NI people) than the millionth reference to 1966!
"Lioness Line" is however a bit of a tongue-twister, so I'm not a fan for that reason alone.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Presentaionally that might be possible, as it would with its twin the Greenford branch. But Elizabeth Line trains won't work on either shuttle - far too long for either, and the Greenford branch isn't electrified either (which is why it isn't part of the Overground. Rather than go to the gttrouble of creating microfleets, both branches are operated by the nearest operator who have suitable rolling stock (Overground and GWR respectively), even though no other services of those operators connect with them. (Elizabeth Line and Underground only)
Business Bob
Member
The location of the destinations is not really relevant. The core section where all trains regardless of destination go through is the NLL (Willesden-Stratford) or ELL ( Dalston Jn - Surrey Quays).
I guess we're just going to call it what we we're familar with whether its Suffragette, Goblin, the Gobs as us drivers call it, the branch for the older Silverlink drivers and offically the T&H (Tottenham & Hampstead). At the end of the day this is just for TfLs mapping and information. Its not like they are going to change them in the Sectional Appendix.
It wasnt too long ago that it was MTRs drivers who were driving the Overground trains on those lines.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Interesting. Looking on Google maps, there appears to be no trace of any station building today, although just east of Mildmay Park, the two pairs of railway tracks separate in a way that is very suggestive of an island platform having once been there. It seems surprisingly close to both Canonbury and Dalston Kingsland - and a quick check on Wikipedia seems to suggest that all three stations were simultaneously in use for a period during the 19th century.
The name, Mildmay Line does make a bit more sense if you read it as referring to the Mildmay Estate, which it does pass through, rather than the hospital.
I also notice on Google maps there is a St Jude's/St Paul's Church in the vicinity, but it's located on King Henry's Walk, not Mildmay Park. Could it have moved at some point?
Sputnik89
Member
I tend to think anyone who gets upset (some VERY upset, judging by this thread) about a train line name really needs to get out more.
Similar confusion as that in Merseyside, where Merseyrail's Northern Line shares several stations with the TOC Northern.
bramling
Veteran Member
“Tottenham Line” would have done quite nicely IMV. In fact, raising the profile of that part of London would be quite a worthwhile thing to do, as these sorts of things can actually make a big difference to an area, especially one which is historically somewhat troubled. And it would have gone hand in hand with the recent electrification.
The fact is that Khan doesn’t give a stuff about improving London nor about enhancing the quality of life for people in London. He simply has a narrow political agenda which essentially revolves around him having insufficient space on his shoulders for the number of chips he has to rest on them.
The slight problem is that there's at least 3 stains with Tottenham in the title and it only serves one (South Tottenham with about 1 million passengers), whilst the more well known Tottenham Court Road isn't anywhere near nor is the much busier of the two stations in Tottenham with Tottenham in the name (Tottenham Hale with 7.5 million passengers) served by it.
That's a bit unfair on Sadiq Khan, he's done well as Mayor. The alternative is Susan Hall who no one would want.
Goblins have good cause to be aggrieved by this slight.
Enthusiast
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Emerson Park is a discreet area comprising mainly of a couple of housing estates built in the late 19th and early 20th century. The station was opened to serve those estates.
I lived for the best part of 25 years less than a mile from Mildmay Park. Nobody, but nobody - including those with whom I shared a pint in the Mildmay Tavern - pronounced it any way other than "Marmay". I suppose people unfamiliar with the area may pronounce it as it is written, rather like those seeing Woolfardisworthy in North Devon may not understand it's pronounced "Woolsery".
Because it isn't two separate lines, any more than the Metropolitan Line from Baker Street to Uxbridge, Watford, Amersham and Chesham is. The services share four tracks from Bethnal Green to Hackney Downs (note, not Hackney Central). Trains to and from Chingford generally use the pair on the eastern side - the "fast" lines" - and do not stop at Cambridge Heath or London Fields because those stations have no platforms on the fast lines. Passengers requiring those stations must use services to or from Enfield Town or Cheshunt (though not all Cheshunt trains stop at them). It's no different to fast Metropolitan Line trains missing out Preston Road and Northwick Park.
Yeah! Like votes for women! How appallingly woke
Actually a little disappointed that 'Effra Line' wasn't chosen for the South London Lines. It's an important street in Brixton named after a 'lost' river which starts in Norwood.
'Lioness' will date badly and could become embarrassing if the team crashes out in the first round of what ever tournament....
I had a quick mental scan of lost and short-lived names.
'Glasgow Underground' never seemed to be popular and has reverted to 'Subway', it's original name.
'Morden-Edgware Line' was hopelessly awkward and disappeared after about five years of use.
And several were never used, mainly because they were subsumed into their parent company like the 'Ealing and South Harrow Railway'.
Seeing as the Watford DC Line serves Wembley as well, why wasn't 'Wabley Line' chosen?
'Lioness' will date badly and could become embarrassing if the team crashes out in the first round of what ever tournament....
I had a quick mental scan of lost and short-lived names.
'Glasgow Underground' never seemed to be popular and has reverted to 'Subway', it's original name.
'Morden-Edgware Line' was hopelessly awkward and disappeared after about five years of use.
And several were never used, mainly because they were subsumed into their parent company like the 'Ealing and South Harrow Railway'.
Seeing as the Watford DC Line serves Wembley as well, why wasn't 'Wabley Line' chosen?
A worthy cause, but women have had the vote at parity with men since 1928 (incidentally, many men didn’t have the vote either, until the early part of the 20th century. Prior to that it was restricted those who owned property).
I think the point being made is that Tottenham has many, many issues in 2024 and perhaps nomenclature focussing on that area, and raising its current profile, would be more beneficial.
That’s an excellent suggestion.
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