London Overground line names announced

[announcements]

Could they not just transfer the Liberty line to MTR and make it a shuttle branch of the Elizabeth line? That would be one less LO line to worry about naming/colouring.

 

[OvergroundMatt]

I wasn’t that wild about the names to begin with but they’re growing on me. Particularly given the nature of the fury against them, which is so objectively rooted in the deep-seated desire amongst a small but vocal section of British society not to be reminded of any kind of “difference” or challenge to the accepted order of things.

My local line will be the Mildmay, a fitting tribute to the hospice that took in dying AIDS patients when others wouldn’t, in a dark time that robbed LGBT people like me of a generation of mentors and role models. I couldn’t give a toss that doesn’t go near the site of the hospice itself, but it does go right through the area from which the hospice took its name.

As John Bull wrote on LondonReconnections today, visibility matters.

 

[infobleep]

It’s named after the country’s longest reigning monarch, who died around the time the line was opened. That seems reasonable enough, and is free from political connotation (the fact the late queen had passed away actually helps in that respect, as she’s now a historical figure).

I preferred Crossrail simply because its catchier.



Same here.

I did suggest the following to some friends:
Charles
William
George
Charlotte
Louis
Harry

Those being the King and the next 5 in line to the throne.

I wasn't being entirely serious though.

 

[306024]

But how common is it for the general public to say "goblin" versus railway enthusiasts? Do people who live on that route call it the "Goblin"? I am asking out of ignorance here, not trying to be difficult.

I always thought it was an enthusiast's term. Given how much outrage there is on here at the other names, Goblin (a small, imaginary, usually ugly creature who plays tricks on people, according to one definition) would be and sound just plain awful. The user group are spot on. Professional rail staff of a certain age call it the T&H, Tottenham and Hampstead, but that doesn’t help.

Romford shopping centre, which was new back in the 1960s, has been known as the Liberty since it was built.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what’s the reason for the Weaver line not being 2 separate lines?

It looks particularly confusing at Hackney Central for instance where 2 instances of Weaver line heading to Liverpool Street stop at different stations.

Agree.

How about the Baden-Powell Line? Chingford is the station for Gilwell Park, the home of Scouting.

 

[Acton1991]

The updated tube map (whist hideously messy) will be better to help identify routes more quickly.

I can't help but think the key needs some work, though. The use of a London Overground header, but not the same for the Underground is confusing, for example.

 

[RingArm]

Mildmay Park, apart from being a long disused station, is the place where the first murder on a train took place.

 

[yorksrob]

I did suggest the following to some friends:
Charles
William
George
Charlotte
Louis
Harry

Those being the King and the next 5 in line to the throne.

I wasn't being entirely serious though.

Or:

Harry
Louis
Zayn
Niall
Liam


I'll get my coat ...

 

[announcements]

I wasn’t that wild about the names to begin with but they’re growing on me. Particularly given the nature of the fury against them, which is so objectively rooted in the deep-seated desire amongst a small but vocal section of British society not to be reminded of any kind of “difference” or challenge to the accepted order of things.

Yes, it is true to say there have been some voices taking the anti-woke view in opposition of this press announcement but that does not mean you must change your mind to go against such fury. I hate to use the picking a football team to support mentality analogy whereby: you either have to support Sadiq's choices at all cost because in not doing so you'll be associated with this anti-woke crowd; or you go against Sadiq at all costs because you cannot get past the Woke names. It shouldn't be like this. It is more nuanced than that. [this isn't me having a go at you, this is just a general frustration I have with this whole woke vs non woke agenda]

There have been plenty of reasonable points made on here, LR and other forums against what is being proposed. Questioning and debating the names, seeking alternatives, is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Or even asking questions such as why not split the Weaver line? Why settle upon the colours chosen? How will it be funded? Did we need to rename them in the first place? Has what is being proposed achieved optimum simplicity?

I appreciate the sentiment with Mildmay, but concerns have been raised about the geography, the name not rolling off the tongue and its chosen colour. Similarly, concerns have been raised about the name Lioness being too 'in the moment' not simply because it is a female team. There have also been concerns around the Weaver and Liberty lines being thin on background justification.

 

[The Ham]

TfL have played an absolute blinder in marketing terms, all the press is talking about it, this thread has gained 18 pages of chatter about it.

If they had numbered/lettered the lines they would have had to have spent a fortune to get the same level of awareness with the public.

What does woke mean please?

Everyone knows it means I don't like something but want to be able to name call you if you disagree with me, with the added bonus of the fear of the name calling meaning that others will likely agree with me.

And- this point really needs emphasising- is all money that would have had to have been spent even if they'd just gone with U1, U2, etc.

As I suggested it's likely that more money would have had to have been spent to advertise the change to get even 1/100th of the coverage that it's had.

Although I do fear that it may have caused the NHS some extra work due to significantly rising the blood pressure of sensitive types (oh, no, sorry NHS, I've just made your work even harder!!!!)

 

[contrex]

I wasn’t that wild about the names to begin with but they’re growing on me. Particularly given the nature of the fury against them, which is so objectively rooted in the deep-seated desire amongst a small but vocal section of British society not to be reminded of any kind of “difference” or challenge to the accepted order of things.

My local line will be the Mildmay, a fitting tribute to the hospice that took in dying AIDS patients when others wouldn’t, in a dark time that robbed LGBT people like me of a generation of mentors and role models. I couldn’t give a toss that doesn’t go near the site of the hospice itself, but it does go right through the area from which the hospice took its name.

As John Bull wrote on LondonReconnections today, visibility matters.

Although I like to think of myself as progressive, and although I think of the word 'woke' as a dog-whistle slur used by right-wingers, I was a bit taken aback at these line names. Your admirable comment had helped to convince me that they are a good thing. Thank you.

I am put, a bit, in mind of some Paris Métro station names - Louise Michel (Communard and anarchist) on line 3, and the recent Barbara (singer) and Bagneux–Lucie Aubrac on line 4. Aubrac was a member of the French Resistance during World War II.

 

[Busaholic]

The Elizabeth Line is used by a truly staggering number of people and the cultural penetration is several orders of magnitude above the "Lioness Line" (the silliest and most transient of the names in my opinion)

Not that I want to see any new names, but if one has to be used for a line passing Wembley Stadium, surely the Geoff Hurst celebrating the one remaining living member of the 1966 World Cup winning squad should be it? I seem to remember the Lionesses didn't win anything, despite all the hype. Oh well, maybe we can only aspire to be second best now.

 

[Darandio]

I seem to remember the Lionesses didn't win anything, despite all the hype. Oh well, maybe we can only aspire to be second best now.

They did, 2022.

 

[Meerkat]

From the video linked above there will be a confusing mix of line names and 'overground'. Some direction signs just using the orange roundel means that someone told to get the Weaver line will need to know that it is the Overground (and not Underground etc)

 

[dcsprior]

Not that I want to see any new names, but if one has to be used for a line passing Wembley Stadium, surely the Geoff Hurst celebrating the one remaining living member of the 1966 World Cup winning squad should be it? I seem to remember the Lionesses didn't win anything, despite all the hype. Oh well, maybe we can only aspire to be second best now.

IIRC, the lionesses did win the Euros? And naming it Lioness Line is less likely to annoy Scots (and presumably Welsh and NI people) than the millionth reference to 1966!

"Lioness Line" is however a bit of a tongue-twister, so I'm not a fan for that reason alone.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Could they not just transfer the Liberty line to MTR and make it a shuttle branch of the Elizabeth line? That would be one less LO line to worry about naming/colouring.

Presentaionally that might be possible, as it would with its twin the Greenford branch. But Elizabeth Line trains won't work on either shuttle - far too long for either, and the Greenford branch isn't electrified either (which is why it isn't part of the Overground. Rather than go to the gttrouble of creating microfleets, both branches are operated by the nearest operator who have suitable rolling stock (Overground and GWR respectively), even though no other services of those operators connect with them. (Elizabeth Line and Underground only)

 

[Business Bob]

"roughly" is doing a lot of work there. The NLL goes to Richmond, the ELL to Croydon.

The location of the destinations is not really relevant. The core section where all trains regardless of destination go through is the NLL (Willesden-Stratford) or ELL ( Dalston Jn - Surrey Quays).

But how common is it for the general public to say "goblin" versus railway enthusiasts? Do people who live on that route call it the "Goblin"? I am asking out of ignorance here, not trying to be difficult.

I guess we're just going to call it what we we're familar with whether its Suffragette, Goblin, the Gobs as us drivers call it, the branch for the older Silverlink drivers and offically the T&H (Tottenham & Hampstead). At the end of the day this is just for TfLs mapping and information. Its not like they are going to change them in the Sectional Appendix.

Could they not just transfer the Liberty line to MTR and make it a shuttle branch of the Elizabeth line? That would be one less LO line to worry about naming/colouring.

It wasnt too long ago that it was MTRs drivers who were driving the Overground trains on those lines.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The hospital of that name has never been anywhere near Mildmay Park. It took its name from that area because its work was originally set up by the vicar of St Jude's Church and his wife, the church being located in Mildmay Park. This is not an open space but is a thoroughfare stretching from Newington Green to Ball's pond Road. The road, together with the church, was built in the 1840s when part of the Mildmay Estate was leased for housing at the time the North London Railway was under construction. The "Mildmay Mission", which the work of the church became known as, opened its first medical centre during a cholera outbreak in the East London slums. This was located in Bethnal Green, near to the current Mildmay Hospital.

It is probable that only people who live in that immediate area know of Mildmay Park and not many of them would be aware that the building which sat on the railway bridge crossing the "Windrush" and "Mildmay" lines was in fact Mildmay Park station, which closed in 1934. Some may have known it as John Holton's vehicle body repair shop, which operated from the substantial former station building from the late 1950s until shortly before it was demolished in the early 1980s. Whilst it's said upthread that few people will have heard of Mildmay Park I would fancy that not many more have ever heard of the hospital.

I feel insufficient thought went into the naming of the Mildmay Line. It seems to me that whoever conducted this exercise saw the hospital and decided to fit one of the six lines to it, come what may. Their cause may have been better served if they'd at least chosen one of the two lines which pass close by.

Interesting. Looking on Google maps, there appears to be no trace of any station building today, although just east of Mildmay Park, the two pairs of railway tracks separate in a way that is very suggestive of an island platform having once been there. It seems surprisingly close to both Canonbury and Dalston Kingsland - and a quick check on Wikipedia seems to suggest that all three stations were simultaneously in use for a period during the 19th century.

The name, Mildmay Line does make a bit more sense if you read it as referring to the Mildmay Estate, which it does pass through, rather than the hospital.

I also notice on Google maps there is a St Jude's/St Paul's Church in the vicinity, but it's located on King Henry's Walk, not Mildmay Park. Could it have moved at some point?

 

[W-on-Sea]

I found a tram stop in Nantes named after Bobby Sands! I don't care much for most of these names, but it could have been worse.

 

[Sputnik89]

I tend to think anyone who gets upset (some VERY upset, judging by this thread) about a train line name really needs to get out more.

 

[urbophile]

There is one reason why the Northern line name stuck despite it going further south, is that at the time and still exists today south of the river was dominated by the Southern Railway, so having the Southern line at Balham would have caused some confusion.

Similar confusion as that in Merseyside, where Merseyrail's Northern Line shares several stations with the TOC Northern.

 

[bramling]

I always thought it was an enthusiast's term. Given how much outrage there is on here at the other names, Goblin (a small, imaginary, usually ugly creature who plays tricks on people, according to one definition) would be and sound just plain awful. The user group are spot on. Professional rail staff of a certain age call it the T&H, Tottenham and Hampstead, but that doesn’t help.

Romford shopping centre, which was new back in the 1960s, has been known as the Liberty since it was built.

“Tottenham Line” would have done quite nicely IMV. In fact, raising the profile of that part of London would be quite a worthwhile thing to do, as these sorts of things can actually make a big difference to an area, especially one which is historically somewhat troubled. And it would have gone hand in hand with the recent electrification.

The fact is that Khan doesn’t give a stuff about improving London nor about enhancing the quality of life for people in London. He simply has a narrow political agenda which essentially revolves around him having insufficient space on his shoulders for the number of chips he has to rest on them.

 

[The Ham]

“Tottenham Line” would have done quite nicely IMV. In fact, raising the profile of that part of London would be quite a worthwhile thing to do, as these sorts of things can actually make a big difference to an area, especially one which is historically somewhat troubled. And it would have gone hand in hand with the recent electrification.

The fact is that Khan doesn’t give a stuff about improving London nor about enhancing the quality of life for people in London. He simply has a narrow political agenda which essentially revolves around him having insufficient space on his shoulders for the number of chips he has to rest on them.

The slight problem is that there's at least 3 stains with Tottenham in the title and it only serves one (South Tottenham with about 1 million passengers), whilst the more well known Tottenham Court Road isn't anywhere near nor is the much busier of the two stations in Tottenham with Tottenham in the name (Tottenham Hale with 7.5 million passengers) served by it.

 

[Thirteen]

“Tottenham Line” would have done quite nicely IMV. In fact, raising the profile of that part of London would be quite a worthwhile thing to do, as these sorts of things can actually make a big difference to an area, especially one which is historically somewhat troubled. And it would have gone hand in hand with the recent electrification.

The fact is that Khan doesn’t give a stuff about improving London nor about enhancing the quality of life for people in London. He simply has a narrow political agenda which essentially revolves around him having insufficient space on his shoulders for the number of chips he has to rest on them.

That's a bit unfair on Sadiq Khan, he's done well as Mayor. The alternative is Susan Hall who no one would want.

 

[PTR 444]

A graph from Google Trends which shows how searches for new LO line names have skyrocketed since yesterday’s announcement. Handily in similar colours to those of the new lines as well.

 

[Malaxa]

I tend to think anyone who gets upset (some VERY upset, judging by this thread) about a train line name really needs to get out more.

Goblins have good cause to be aggrieved by this slight.

 

[Enthusiast]

There is no Emerson Park though, its Hornchurch!

Emerson Park is a discreet area comprising mainly of a couple of housing estates built in the late 19th and early 20th century. The station was opened to serve those estates.

'Marmay' is how members of my dad's family always pronounced it, and they were from neighbouring Dalston. I've always taken it to be the correct pronunciation; it will grate on my ears if it's pronounced 'Mild May' over the station tannoys.

I lived for the best part of 25 years less than a mile from Mildmay Park. Nobody, but nobody - including those with whom I shared a pint in the Mildmay Tavern - pronounced it any way other than "Marmay". I suppose people unfamiliar with the area may pronounce it as it is written, rather like those seeing Woolfardisworthy in North Devon may not understand it's pronounced "Woolsery".

So what’s the reason for the Weaver line not being 2 separate lines?

It looks particularly confusing at Hackney Central for instance where 2 instances of Weaver line heading to Liverpool Street stop at different stations.

Because it isn't two separate lines, any more than the Metropolitan Line from Baker Street to Uxbridge, Watford, Amersham and Chesham is. The services share four tracks from Bethnal Green to Hackney Downs (note, not Hackney Central). Trains to and from Chingford generally use the pair on the eastern side - the "fast" lines" - and do not stop at Cambridge Heath or London Fields because those stations have no platforms on the fast lines. Passengers requiring those stations must use services to or from Enfield Town or Cheshunt (though not all Cheshunt trains stop at them). It's no different to fast Metropolitan Line trains missing out Preston Road and Northwick Park.

 

[stuu]

“Tottenham Line” would have done quite nicely IMV. In fact, raising the profile of that part of London would be quite a worthwhile thing to do, as these sorts of things can actually make a big difference to an area, especially one which is historically somewhat troubled. And it would have gone hand in hand with the recent electrification.

The fact is that Khan doesn’t give a stuff about improving London nor about enhancing the quality of life for people in London. He simply has a narrow political agenda which essentially revolves around him having insufficient space on his shoulders for the number of chips he has to rest on them.

Yeah! Like votes for women! How appallingly woke

 

[Mr. SW]

Actually a little disappointed that 'Effra Line' wasn't chosen for the South London Lines. It's an important street in Brixton named after a 'lost' river which starts in Norwood.

'Lioness' will date badly and could become embarrassing if the team crashes out in the first round of what ever tournament....

I had a quick mental scan of lost and short-lived names.
'Glasgow Underground' never seemed to be popular and has reverted to 'Subway', it's original name.
'Morden-Edgware Line' was hopelessly awkward and disappeared after about five years of use.
And several were never used, mainly because they were subsumed into their parent company like the 'Ealing and South Harrow Railway'.

Seeing as the Watford DC Line serves Wembley as well, why wasn't 'Wabley Line' chosen?

 

[43066]

Yeah! Like votes for women! How appallingly woke

A worthy cause, but women have had the vote at parity with men since 1928 (incidentally, many men didn’t have the vote either, until the early part of the 20th century. Prior to that it was restricted those who owned property).

I think the point being made is that Tottenham has many, many issues in 2024 and perhaps nomenclature focussing on that area, and raising its current profile, would be more beneficial.

Actually a little disappointed that 'Effra Line' wasn't chosen for the South London Lines. It's an important street in Brixton named after a 'lost' river which starts in Norwood.

That’s an excellent suggestion.