Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

Killingworth · 20 Feb 2024

geoffk said:
Alternate trains shown as calling at Manors. Is that a change from the original plan?

Maybe necessary to define 'original' plan it was so long ago and there've been various changes along the way. Manors was one of my old train spotting haunts so I've been saddened to see it sinking into oblivion.

My recollection is that trains were to stop at Manors with no note of how frequently. More recently that was starting to look doubtful. A year ago at the Transport for the North conference in Newcastle I directly asked Jamie Driscoll, metro mayor of the North of Tyne Combined Authority, if trains were to stop at Manors and he said they were.

The caveat has always been pathing on the corridor from Benton into Central.

RailUK Forums

geoffk · 20 Feb 2024

Killingworth said:
Maybe necessary to define 'original' plan it was so long ago and there've been various changes along the way. Manors was one of my old train spotting haunts so I've been saddened to see it sinking into oblivion.

My recollection is that trains were to stop at Manors with no note of how frequently. More recently that was starting to look doubtful. A year ago at the Transport for the North conference in Newcastle I directly asked Jamie Driscoll, metro mayor of the North of Tyne Combined Authority, if trains were to stop at Manors and he said they were.

The caveat has always been pathing on the corridor from Benton into Central.

Thanks. I lived and worked in Durham 1975-80, all a long time ago. More recently I struggled to find Manors National Rail station from the Metro station - perhaps signing has been improved now, although interchange with the Ashington trains will be at Northumberland Park.

Killingworth · 20 Feb 2024

geoffk said:
Thanks. I lived and worked in Durham 1975-80, all a long time ago. More recently I struggled to find Manors National Rail station from the Metro station - perhaps signing has been improved now, although interchange with the Ashington trains will be at Northumberland Park.

Manors station is badly in need of resuscitation, but it was running down in the early 1960s. It could be an interchange point for a small number coming from the North Shields direction going to or from the Northumberland line. It's a bleak place to do that today, although I note Google maps give the time to walk between the two stations as 2 minutes for 0.1 miles. The immediate vicinity has been very much improved in recent years.

androdas · 20 Feb 2024

norbitonflyer said:
Q paths now showing in Real Time Trains. No distivction made between those stations due to open in summer and those that are delayed.

Departures from Ashington on the hour and half hour, from Newcastle a little variable (presumably for pathing reasons), but usually just after the quarters. End to end journey time 36 minutes.

I do note though that the Freight (Biomass/Alumina0 trains that use the line are not in the timetable so these will need to be woven in. The alumina will be pretty fixed timings I would imagine as retiming it will have lots of knock on effects especially between Glasgow and Ft William but I would imagine there will now be potential to run some of the biomass overnight once the line is resignalled and not having to work around signal box closure times.

There are a couple of other 'Q' freight paths on the Blyth and Tyne that never run to Port of Blyth, 6D82 a coal train to Doncaster to a power station that I think is closed and 6M80/6E80 stone from Shap which was for the stalled gigafactory development at Cambois which look unlikely to start anytime soon.

ainsworth74 · 20 Feb 2024

Killingworth said:
Manors station is badly in need of resuscitation, but it was running down in the early 1960s. It could be an interchange point for a small number coming from the North Shields direction going to or from the Northumberland line. It's a bleak place to do that today, although I note Google maps give the time to walk between the two stations as 2 minutes for 0.1 miles. The immediate vicinity has been very much improved in recent years.

Is it though? Really? It may have been being run down in the 1960s but was killed stone dead by the Metro in the 80s. I'm not sure the basic facts on the ground have changed sufficient to warrant any particular "resuscitation" of the station. What does it provide that the Metro station a minute or two walk away doesn't also do and usually better?

Indeed I would suggest that the dreaded 'C' word might make more sense...

Snex · 20 Feb 2024

ainsworth74 said:
Is it though? Really? It may have been being run down in the 1960s but was killed stone dead by the Metro in the 80s. I'm not sure the basic facts on the ground have changed sufficient to warrant any particular "resuscitation" of the station. What does it provide that the Metro station a minute or two walk away doesn't also do and usually better?

Indeed I would suggest that the dreaded 'C' word might make more sense...

For someone, who's lives on the line, and will use it, I have to agree. I don't see any reason why I'd ever want to use it and nor anyone else as it's in the middle of no-where. If using any of the Metro stations on that line, not sure why I'd really want to go to Byker though mind, it would be easier to change at Northumberland Park and go around the coast loop.

If you want to give better connections to the places along there, you'd be better off saving the money and spend the money extending the 22 bus to Northumberland Park from Cobalt but that's for another thread.

androdas · 20 Feb 2024

Unfortunately the Central motorway ripping through the city centre in the 70s cut off anything to the east of it and it just doesn't feel attached to the city including Manors Station, whereas the area around Central Station and just to the West of the motorway seems to be having a lot of development recently.

swt_passenger · 20 Feb 2024

geoffk said:
Alternate trains shown as calling at Manors. Is that a change from the original plan?

It was stated as 1 tph in the link in post #635 last June, by @androdas - I think it’ll be difficult to pin down “initial” plans now.

Killingworth · 20 Feb 2024

ainsworth74 said:
Is it though? Really? It may have been being run down in the 1960s but was killed stone dead by the Metro in the 80s. I'm not sure the basic facts on the ground have changed sufficient to warrant any particular "resuscitation" of the station. What does it provide that the Metro station a minute or two walk away doesn't also do and usually better?

Indeed I would suggest that the dreaded 'C' word might make more sense...

My grandson spent a year in student accommodation within a short walk of Manors. It certainly is a bit isolated from the city centre thanks to the central motorway- but it didn't seem to stop them getting there. You have to know Manors railway station is there. I doubt he did, and nor did I when visiting him.

The exile · 20 Feb 2024

ainsworth74 said:
What does it provide that the Metro station a minute or two walk away doesn't also do and usually better?

Direct links to/from Morpeth etc and in future Ashington. If either service runs through from the South /West then to /from there as well.
Down here people would once have said similar about Lawrence Hill, Bedminster and Parson Street. Not any more - things can change.

trebor79 · 20 Feb 2024

ainsworth74 said:
What does it provide that the Metro station a minute or two walk away doesn't also do and usually better?

The exile said:
Direct links to/from Morpeth etc and in future Ashington. If either service runs through from the South /West then to /from there as well.

But why would anyone go to Manors to use them when they can go to Central (which has connections to/from all over the country) for the same train? Anyone who needs to get to/from Manors itself can use the Metro.

The exile · 20 Feb 2024

trebor79 said:
But why would anyone go to Manors to use them when they can go to Central (which has connections to/from all over the country) for the same train? Anyone who needs to get to/from Manors itself can use the Metro.

Ok - so the argument doesn’t apply if Manors station is in the middle of a desert that stretches half way to Central and there is therefore absolutely no reason to travel to and from the immediate area. I seem to remember quite a lot of building work going on round it last time I was there, so I assume that is not the case. I agree that maintaining it purely as a Metro interchange has little point.

trebor79 · 20 Feb 2024

Even if there is some building work going on in that area, does it really need a heavy rail connection to Central and Northumberland when the Metro will serve most people journey requirements better than that option? I can't think there's going to be much flow between Manors and say Ashington?

Snex · 20 Feb 2024

The exile said:
Direct links to/from Morpeth etc and in future Ashington. If either service runs through from the South /West then to /from there as well.
Down here people would once have said similar about Lawrence Hill, Bedminster and Parson Street. Not any more - things can change.

It's not the same though as there's a Metro station opposite, which is one of the worst used on the network aswell. Both stations are in the complete wrong place and should've been moved/built further East on Newbridge Street with a proper interchange but that bridge has long gone now.

It's not as if they can blame the Motorway either as it predates both stations in their current form.

The exile · 20 Feb 2024

trebor79 said:
Even if there is some building work going on in that area, does it really need a heavy rail connection to Central and Northumberland when the Metro will serve most people journey requirements better than that option? I can't think there's going to be much flow between Manors and say Ashington?

Agree that there’s little point in a heavy rail connection to central at heavy rail frequencies - but that’s surely not the justification for it.

androdas · 20 Feb 2024

So just roughly after the Northumberland Line opens Manors will get if I am reading RTT correctly:

Northbound: Morpeth on the hour and Ashington approx 20 past.
Southbound: Newcastle on the hour from Ashington and Carlisle / Newcastle at quarter past from Morpeth (and the oddity that is the Chathill flyer once a day)

This doesnt seem bad for a station in Manors' position.

Link to the RTT page I used for the rough working out : https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...4-06-26/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=call&order=wtt

sjm77 · 20 Feb 2024

I was expecting the trains to pass each other on the new double track section between Holywell and Seghill but no. Instead they pass on the small double track section off Benton Jcn and then again at Newsham

lakeland844 · 20 Feb 2024

Snex said:
For someone, who's lives on the line, and will use it, I have to agree. I don't see any reason why I'd ever want to use it and nor anyone else as it's in the middle of no-where. If using any of the Metro stations on that line, not sure why I'd really want to go to Byker though mind, it would be easier to change at Northumberland Park and go around the coast loop.

If you want to give better connections to the places along there, you'd be better off saving the money and spend the money extending the 22 bus to Northumberland Park from Cobalt but that's for another thread.

Manors is still the most convenient station for the University of Northumbria Campus directly adjacent to it. I can envisage usage of the station by students at certain times of day during term time.

Snex · 20 Feb 2024

lakeland844 said:
Manors is still the most convenient station for the University of Northumbria Campus directly adjacent to it. I can envisage usage of the station by students at certain times of day during term time.

Yeah possible to be fair, guess it depends how many students are coming from SE Northumberland. I know I would've used it in the past when I went there.

Xenophon PCDGS · 20 Feb 2024

Snex said:
Yeah possible to be fair, guess it depends how many students are coming from SE Northumberland. I know I would've used it in the past when I went there.

I wonder what the percentage travel arrangements of those students are at this moment in time?

Snex · 20 Feb 2024

Xenophon PCDGS said:
I wonder what the percentage travel arrangements of those students are at this moment in time?

Imagine most would bus in, the few people I knew heading in did. Be interesting to see if students would be happy to change though as most the stations are a bit out of the way. I'm lucky as there's a station here but if I was using the bus, I'm not sure I could be bothered with the interchange when I could just use the bus all the way through, and Haymarket isn't a million miles away either.

I have a feeling most the travel on it will be those who currently drive or live right next to the station, hence the massive car parks at all of them, but guess we'll have to wait and see.

Bald Rick · 20 Feb 2024

androdas said:
I do note though that the Freight (Biomass/Alumina0 trains that use the line are not in the timetable so these will need to be woven in.

They are in the timetable. You just cant see them yet.

androdas · 20 Feb 2024

sjm77 said:
I was expecting the trains to pass each other on the new double track section between Holywell and Seghill but no. Instead they pass on the small double track section off Benton Jcn and then again at Newsham

I think from one of the early project documents the loops were put in to allow the freight to run otherwise it would be a struggle to do a 1/2 hourly service plus the freight.

edwin_m · 20 Feb 2024

sjm77 said:
I was expecting the trains to pass each other on the new double track section between Holywell and Seghill but no. Instead they pass on the small double track section off Benton Jcn and then again at Newsham

Having them pass at or near Benton Junction means that each pair of trains only blocks the Up ECML for half(ish) as many minutes.

Northern158170 · 20 Feb 2024

May be wrong but RTT suggests class 158s on the route

ainsworth74 · 20 Feb 2024

Northern158170 said:
May be wrong but RTT suggests class 158s on the route

Yes it'll be 158s, has to be as apparently to get the paths to work it needs to be 90mph capable stock which means 158s or nothing up at Heaton.

sjm77 · 21 Feb 2024

ainsworth74 said:
Yes it'll be 158s, has to be as apparently to get the paths to work it needs to be 90mph capable stock which means 158s or nothing up at Heaton.

Wow, the pathing must be really tight. How many miles can they actually run at 90mph? It is 3.7 miles from Manors to Benton Jcn. Allowing for acceleration from a stop at Manors (or 40mph if not stopping) and then slowing for the approach control at Benton surely no more that 2 miles would be run at 90mph. Time saved over 2 miles would be 16 seconds.

androdas · 21 Feb 2024

I believe it is for their acceleration as that has been mentioned on this thread before, I'm sure an expert will be able to shed more light on why they have been used vice 156's.

Anvil1984 · 21 Feb 2024

ainsworth74 said:
Yes it'll be 158s, has to be as apparently to get the paths to work it needs to be 90mph capable stock which means 158s or nothing up at Heaton.

It’s not the 90 mph capabilities but rather the braking capability of the units which require 158s. Very tight timetable apparently and tests were taken out on other lines to see how much time could be saved

ainsworth74 · 21 Feb 2024

sjm77 said:
Wow, the pathing must be really tight.

See later replies, I was right but for the wrong reasons :lol:

Anvil1984 said:
It’s not the 90 mph capabilities but rather the braking capability of the units which require 158s. Very tight timetable apparently and tests were taken out on other lines to see how much time could be saved

Ah fair enough! I obviously got the wrong end of the stick

Northumberland Line to be re-opened to passengers

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Member

Established Member

Forum Staff