Ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Clacton-On-Sea

Starmill · 27 Feb 2024

sansyy said:
Thank you all, I plan to depart on the Friday so I have freedom on my tickets restrictions and knowing I can break my journey overnight is very helpful. If I get challenged what should I do? I’m not interested in rolling over and buying another ticket on board as I presume they’ll try make me and do worse case a penalty fare.

It's unlikely you will be challenged robustly on breaking the return portion. You can just point out when you left Clacton-on-Sea and where you stayed the night, that should be enough.

tspaul26 said:
I don’t know why you are so sure you will have difficulties

Perhaps because of confusion arising from Peterblue's post above.

RailUK Forums

jfollows · 27 Feb 2024

sansyy said:
Thank you all, I plan to depart on the Friday so I have freedom on my tickets restrictions and knowing I can break my journey overnight is very helpful. If I get challenged what should I do? I’m not interested in rolling over and buying another ticket on board as I presume they’ll try make me and do worse case a penalty fare.

Don't worry about it.
The paper ticket will clearly have the validity dates printed on it, which can sometimes be easier than trying to find the same information on an e-ticket. "Valid until" or something quite clear like that.

tspaul26 said:
Explain that you stayed overnight in London on the way back.

Probably best to avoid the phrase ‘break of journey’.

Personally, I completely disagree with this.
Firstly, break of journey is a long-standing concept and is the rule rather than the exception. I never have any problem saying "I am breaking my journey" if it's valid for the ticket and place I am using.
Secondly, passengers should not feel intimidated into saying something different just in case the person they're talking to is poorly trained or making up the rules. If you're in the right, you should be happy to know your rights and not pretend otherwise.

tspaul26 · 27 Feb 2024

jfollows said:
Personally, I completely disagree with this.
Firstly, break of journey is a long-standing concept and is the rule rather than the exception. I never have any problem saying "I am breaking my journey" if it's valid for the ticket and place I am using.
Secondly, passengers should not feel intimidated into saying something different just in case the person they're talking to is poorly trained or making up the rules. If you're in the right, you should be happy to know your rights and not pretend otherwise.

You may well disagree.

The point I was trying to make was that for a passenger who is less sure of his rights then in my experience simply saying “I stayed in London overnight” tends to be (a) simpler and (b) less likely to trigger certain members of rail staff.

Especially since I have witnessed numerous examples of passengers confidently stating “I’m breaking my journey” when they are not in fact entitled so to do.

sansyy · 27 Feb 2024

Thank you for all the advice, I’m a frequent Northern passenger and the staff are clueless when it comes to BoJ and always challenge it like they know the rules when infact they’re clueless. I am not sure on Avanti staff with this matter but considering they host intercity services I’m hoping they’re trained more with this. I will assert myself if questioned based on knowing my ticket is valid and will be show them my ticket restriction if they think they’re so correct.

Hadders · 27 Feb 2024

Some staff do seem to have a problem witht he phrase 'break of journey'. I tend not to use it instead saying something like 'I stayed overnight at...' or if wanting to go out for a few hours say 'can I pop out for some supplies' etc.

jfollows · 27 Feb 2024

Hadders said:
Some staff do seem to have a problem witht he phrase 'break of journey'. I tend not to use it instead saying something like 'I stayed overnight at...' or if wanting to go out for a few hours say 'can I pop out for some supplies' etc.

Yes, you and tspaul26 both make a fair point, it's a good one, although not something I'd encountered myself.

mangyiscute · 27 Feb 2024

sansyy said:
Thank you all, I plan to depart on the Friday so I have freedom on my tickets restrictions and knowing I can break my journey overnight is very helpful. If I get challenged what should I do? I’m not interested in rolling over and buying another ticket on board as I presume they’ll try make me and do worse case a penalty fare.

I have often broken and resumed journeys overnight (or even weeks apart) and never had any issues. While there is the odd member of staff who doesn't know the rules properly and is overly strict, the vast majority of staff on the railway are helpful, customer-minded people who won't cause you any hassle.
There's a tendancy to overstate things on this forum, but from my own experience despite fairly often using tickets on routes which would be considered odd and potential to be challenged (things much "worse" than a BoJ overnight), I have never had an issue or had any staff member even consider the possibility of penalty faring me etc. My only advice would be have a copy of the Nrcot saved on your phone so that if necessary, you can show that overnight BoJ is allowed.

sansyy · 27 Feb 2024

Thanks for the advice, I’m presuming when you specifically say you’re “breaking your journey” it could flag in a guards mind that you’re doing it on purpose purely to break journey rather than popping out or staying overnight which in my mind would probably set a red flag even though it’s fully allowed and shouldn’t be challenged.

jfollows · 27 Feb 2024

sansyy said:
Thanks for the advice, I’m presuming when you specifically say you’re “breaking your journey” it could flag in a guards mind that you’re doing it on purpose purely to break journey rather than popping out or staying overnight which in my mind would probably set a red flag even though it’s fully allowed and shouldn’t be challenged.

Well, two things occur to me:

Firstly, there's no need to have a reason for breaking a journey if the ticket allows it, if I happen to want to go and see the petunias in Tamworth on a London-Wilmslow ticket then that's fine. Whether or not I leave the station in the process.

More importantly, it appears that a lot of front-line staff who inspect tickets aren't trained very well, primarily those at stations, and there is a tendency for them to make up the rules to suit their way of thinking how the rules should be, as opposed to knowing what the rules actually are.

My main gripe is that the railways evolved a complex fare system to suit their needs, and there is historical baggage as well, but they're not prepared to reform and simplify the system (it's hard, I agree) or to train staff properly. Presumably many station staff don't do the job for long, and sometimes the job is contracted out to companies like Carlisle Security who have a bad reputation here. That said, the point has been made that they are the exception and the majority of staff want to do a good job and treat passengers well.

But, back to your question, I think you've got a good variety of responses and you're well placed now, if so then that's good. I don't think you'll have a problem but it does no harm to think about potential for a problem in advance.

PS Also, it's strange that the National Rail Conditions of Travel (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger/), which mangyiscute refers to above and which we're also supposed to have read and agreed to before travelling by train, explicitly refer to "break of journey" but some feel it wiser to use a euphemism instead for fear of confusing staff.

16. Break of Journey
INFORMATION: Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day.
Please note that “advance” Tickets do not permit a break of journey. The special conditions for “advance” Tickets can be found at www.nationalrail.co.uk/advancetickets
Other national Ticket types normally allow break of journey with the exception of the outward portion of some longer distance “off-peak” returns. Where this is the case, it is made clear in the restrictions applying to those Tickets.
16.1 Where break of journey is allowed, there is no limit to the number of times that you can do so within a Ticket’s period of validity, until the journey is completed.
16.2 Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.
16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.
16.4 Tickets valid for travel across London using Transport for London services do not entitle you to break your journey on London Underground and/or the Docklands Light Railway, unless your Ticket is a Season Ticket or a travelcard covering the Zones in which you are travelling.

mangyiscute · 27 Feb 2024

I guess its probably because staff will be told in their training "you must never let someone break their journey on an advance ticket" quite strongly, and then perhaps its just noted that you can break your journey on other tickets. Therefore, if only the first statement sticks with the member of staff, they will just think "oh break of journey is bad". Meanwhile if you say to someone at the barriers "oh i just want to pop to that cafe" they're like "oh that's okay"

kieron · 28 Feb 2024

Snow1964 said:
In theory can avoid the London termini by alighting at Watford Junction, changing to a train calling at Willesden Junction then taking Overground train to Stratford.

The Clacton trains generally call at Stratford

Not sure if that qualifies as not London, or gets around no e-tickets

That's perfectly fine on a "not via London" ticket, and is a good bit quicker than going via the East Midlands. According to Southern (link), it can be bought as an e-ticket, and the journey takes around 6 hours each way during the week.

London Overground to Wanstead Park would also be fine (you could walk to Forest Gate and catch a Shenfield train from there), and there could be other options.

I should add that, like the "via London" tickets, these let you break your journey.

trainJam · 28 Feb 2024

jfollows said:
Personally, I completely disagree with this.
Firstly, break of journey is a long-standing concept and is the rule rather than the exception. I never have any problem saying "I am breaking my journey" if it's valid for the ticket and place I am using.
Secondly, passengers should not feel intimidated into saying something different just in case the person they're talking to is poorly trained or making up the rules. If you're in the right, you should be happy to know your rights and not pretend otherwise.

Would it have any effect (better ... or worse!) to bring a printed copy of the National Rail Conditions of Travel to show?

Hadders · 28 Feb 2024

trainJam said:
Would it have any effect (better ... or worse!) to bring a printed copy of the National Rail Conditions of Travel to show?

I doubt it. A poorly trained member of staff won't budge, they'll continue to make up all kinds of nonsense like the NRCoT doesn't apply to us etc.

jfollows · 28 Feb 2024

Hadders said:
I doubt it. A poorly trained member of staff won't budge, they'll continue to make up all kinds of nonsense like the NRCoT doesn't apply to us etc.

Yes, just travel secure in the confidence that you know what's right, don't worry, and if you're unlucky to encounter this sort of person, ultimately go along with them and get any money back later, don't let it spoil your trip too much. As I said above, I've never had this kind of problem, and in many cases these people bluster and eventually "let you off" anyway. Clearly some people have had problems, and it's a shame, but it's impossible to adhere to the letter of the rules when the people enforcing the rules don't do so themselves. Plus this forum is probably a focus for this sort of poor behaviour, certainly these kind of tales have been reported more than once, but in the real light of day it's a smaller problem than might otherwise be implied. Doesn't make it right, of course!

Ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Clacton-On-Sea

Starmill

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jfollows

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tspaul26

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sansyy

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Hadders

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jfollows

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mangyiscute

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sansyy

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jfollows

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mangyiscute

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kieron

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trainJam

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Hadders

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jfollows

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