Yeah that is a hell of a lot of carriages gone on Southeastern if all the MetCams go.
Also still no plan for 97 x 4 car remaining BRELs. Refurb or replace? Tender been out for very long time now with no announcement.
The big SE problem is lack of depot/siding space.Yeah that is a hell of a lot of carriages gone on Southeastern if all the MetCams go.
Also still no plan for 97 x 4 car remaining BRELs. Refurb or replace? Tender been out for very long time now with no announcement.
I believe around 9x 465/9s are now in storage, and 14-15x 466s, leaving 25x and 28-29x respectively.The big SE problem is lack of depot/siding space.
Inwards so far:
30x 707 have come in (+150 carriages)
23x 377/5 have come in (+92 carriages)
= +242 carriages in (and Thameslink running some Rainham services)
Out so far (I haven't been keeping track very well):
(at least) 21x Met Cam 465/2 & /9 have been stored (84 carriages)
(at least) 2x Met Cam 466 have been stored (4 carriages)
=- 88 out so far
+242 - 88= +154 carriages so far
Losing the remainder of Metcam 465 and 466 (realistically not this many, just haven't been able to keep track)
29x 465/9 (-116 cars)
41x 466 (-82 cars)
So potential net further loss of 198 cars
So current net +154 cars -198 cars = -44 cars so a loss of equivalent to 11x 4cars
Thameslink Rainham impact is equivalent to 5x 8car on SE turf = net reduction in train requirement of 40cars or 10x 4car
Net loss of just 4cars if all the Metcam 465 unit go vs 5/6 years ago.
If Southeastern did an effective (for passnegers) timetable recast and remove the vast quantities of padding, then the rolling stock requirement to provide the same service level would come down... Charing Cross or Cannon Street to Lewisham averaging 18-19mph range is not quick.
There are numerous places in London where 6 car formations run on metro services. The traffic density isn't the same on all routes.Wow 6 cars on a metro service?
Extra capacity yes, surplus capacity no. I'd argue very much needed.I think the 466s are now just extra capacity
This is pretty much what will happen & the 466sA 379 > 387 > 377 > 465 cascade involving various bits of GTR is being discussed elsewhere - indeed, that may be the rumour the original poster is referring to - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-fleet-tender.247756/page-11#post-6675833
Thanks. Retaining circa 30 of the 466s would make sense for 10 (6) car capacity point of view, which is probably why it is unlikely to happen through!I believe around 9x 465/9s are now in storage, and 14-15x 466s, leaving 25x and 28-29x respectively.
I suspect the role 466s play in forming 10 car (and to a lesser extent 6 car) services is a big headache in any proposals to eliminate all the MetCams from service. They're clearly needed for this role despite 376s and 707s forming many 10 car diagrams, so the risk with binning them all off is having more overcrowded 8 cars, assuming that a loss of stock overall means 12 car operations are very limited (combined with some platform/siding constraints for 12 car as well).
4 car services are regularly seen.Wow 6 cars on a metro service?
There are numerous places in London where 6 car formations run on metro services. The traffic density isn't the same on all routes.
Off peak it appears to be common for Cannon St services to be split into 4/5/6 cars from 8/10 during the peaks. Charing X ones however seem to stay in 8/10 car lengths all day. Victoria-Orpington appears to be 8 car all day, although the frequency is 2tph off peak, 4tph peak.4 car services are regularly seen.
Absolutely the 466s do an essential job.Extra capacity yes, surplus capacity no. I'd argue very much needed.
Same for those 387 categories you mentioned!387/1s and 387/3s do...
as do 377/5s, despite never being used by SN!
I'm trying to think back to around 2018. Was it around then that the Victoria to Dartford's started running past 8pm and longer than four car in the peaks? I shudder at how overcrowded and bad it was. Let's not go back to that even with passengers numbers down since 2020. With all the new housing around Lewisham too that isn't feasible to give one example of a situation we don't want to return to.
The Overground is all five cars....There are numerous places in London where 6 car formations run on metro services. The traffic density isn't the same on all routes.
I find it odd that the networkers didnt seem to have much extensive work done to them at least when you compare them to works done on class 321s, class 458s, class 455 (SWR) , Class 317s esspecially, they were a huge fleet had so much work done on them, esspecially with greater anglia. So why couldnt the same be done for the networkers??? retro fitting them extensively may have been a godsend for those units. Seriously.What's maybe worth considering is that even if the remaining MetCam Networkers are taken out of service this year, I think they've actually lasted longer than they could have done were certain things surrounding franchise management done differently: from 2014-2021 Southeastern kept receiving several short term contract extensions that effectively made a new fleet investment too risky. Had an extension much greater than 4 years been awarded in 2014, or even in 2018, all the Networkers could have been scrapped by now. One only needs to look at how their 365 cousins were handled, how SWR didn't want (or couldn't use due to contract terms) the very new 707s and perhaps some other examples around the country, to see that the climate at the time favoured ordering new fleets even where existing ones were not life expired.
Then of course, as I mentioned upthread, the MetCams have retained their original traction motors for 30 years; the Hitachi motors in the BREL units are only half as old, and even if they go on another 5 years say, will still not have been used as long numerically.
I think the main issue with them is cracked bolsters - an issue which does not affect the BREL/ABB units. 465921 had one and it ended up out of use for months. I’m guessing they don’t want it to happen again?The MetCam ones are far nicer inside and wasn't it stated more reliable than the BRELs despite retractioning?
Maybe lease costs are higher. The BRELs are dismal inside
That's a good question, and I can't seem to find any info anywhere. I've sent them a quick message so we'll see what they come back with!However things aside, does anyone know when the Lease on the Met Cammel 4659 and 4662 cars actually does expire please. Thank You
Interetsingly this information has been redacted for both the GEC/MetCamm Networkers and the 707s in the latest version of the SouthEastern contract that I can find (https://assets.publishing.service.g...-se-trains-limited-2021-services-contract.pdf).However things aside, does anyone know when the Lease on the Met Cammel 4659 and 4662 cars actually does expire please. Thank You
I seem to remember that too. Still, if they go off-lease in (say) 2027, there's a strong incentive to get them replaced before then.Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought all the Networkers in store are still on lease, just not being used, especially given some have been going to and from Doncaster and may even be being used as parts' donors?
The WhatsApp person didn't know but they said the contact form people should know. It's under OLR anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard to find out.That's a good question, and I can't seem to find any info anywhere. I've sent them a quick message so we'll see what they come back with!
After post #4 of the thread the social media people at South Eastern are probably asking what they've done to deserve repeated questions by railway enthusiasts about a subject they have no knowledge or interest in (rolling stock leasing dates).I seem to remember that too. Still, if they go off-lease in (say) 2027, there's a strong incentive to get them replaced before then.
The WhatsApp person didn't know but they said the contact form people should know. It's under OLR anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard to find out.