Metcam Networkers to be withdrawn at the end of the year?

[ScotGG]

Yeah that is a hell of a lot of carriages gone on Southeastern if all the MetCams go.

Also still no plan for 97 x 4 car remaining BRELs. Refurb or replace? Tender been out for very long time now with no announcement.

 

[bramling]

Yeah that is a hell of a lot of carriages gone on Southeastern if all the MetCams go.

Also still no plan for 97 x 4 car remaining BRELs. Refurb or replace? Tender been out for very long time now with no announcement.

What happens with the remainder of the 465s would be interesting, as there’s then the question of what happens to the 707 and 376 fleets. Whatever happens seems likely to be messy for Southeastern.

 

[D365]

I’m surprised the thread has made it this far without anybody pointing out that the BREL/ABB built 465s retain their original ”Brush” AC traction motors. It’s the traction inverter electronics that were changed to Hitachi equipment - this is what generates the noise.

 

[hwl]

Yeah that is a hell of a lot of carriages gone on Southeastern if all the MetCams go.

Also still no plan for 97 x 4 car remaining BRELs. Refurb or replace? Tender been out for very long time now with no announcement.

The big SE problem is lack of depot/siding space.

Inwards so far:
30x 707 have come in (+150 carriages)
23x 377/5 have come in (+92 carriages)
= +242 carriages in (and Thameslink running some Rainham services)

Out so far (I haven't been keeping track very well):
(at least) 21x Met Cam 465/2 & /9 have been stored (84 carriages)
(at least) 2x Met Cam 466 have been stored (4 carriages)
=- 88 out so far

+242 - 88= +154 carriages so far

Losing the remainder of Metcam 465 and 466 (realistically not this many, just haven't been able to keep track)
29x 465/9 (-116 cars)
41x 466 (-82 cars)

So potential net further loss of 198 cars

So current net +154 cars -198 cars = -44 cars so a loss of equivalent to 11x 4cars

Thameslink Rainham impact is equivalent to 5x 8car on SE turf = net reduction in train requirement of 40cars or 10x 4car

Net loss of just 4cars if all the Metcam 465 unit go vs 5/6 years ago.

If Southeastern did an effective (for passnegers) timetable recast and remove the vast quantities of padding, then the rolling stock requirement to provide the same service level would come down... Charing Cross or Cannon Street to Lewisham averaging 18-19mph range is not quick.

 

[ScotGG]

I'm trying to think back to around 2018. Was it around then that the Victoria to Dartford's started running past 8pm and longer than four car in the peaks? I shudder at how overcrowded and bad it was. Let's not go back to that even with passengers numbers down since 2020. With all the new housing around Lewisham too that isn't feasible to give one example of a situation we don't want to return to.

 

[brad465]

The big SE problem is lack of depot/siding space.

Inwards so far:
30x 707 have come in (+150 carriages)
23x 377/5 have come in (+92 carriages)
= +242 carriages in (and Thameslink running some Rainham services)

Out so far (I haven't been keeping track very well):
(at least) 21x Met Cam 465/2 & /9 have been stored (84 carriages)
(at least) 2x Met Cam 466 have been stored (4 carriages)
=- 88 out so far

+242 - 88= +154 carriages so far

Losing the remainder of Metcam 465 and 466 (realistically not this many, just haven't been able to keep track)
29x 465/9 (-116 cars)
41x 466 (-82 cars)

So potential net further loss of 198 cars

So current net +154 cars -198 cars = -44 cars so a loss of equivalent to 11x 4cars

Thameslink Rainham impact is equivalent to 5x 8car on SE turf = net reduction in train requirement of 40cars or 10x 4car

Net loss of just 4cars if all the Metcam 465 unit go vs 5/6 years ago.

If Southeastern did an effective (for passnegers) timetable recast and remove the vast quantities of padding, then the rolling stock requirement to provide the same service level would come down... Charing Cross or Cannon Street to Lewisham averaging 18-19mph range is not quick.

I believe around 9x 465/9s are now in storage, and 14-15x 466s, leaving 25x and 28-29x respectively.

I suspect the role 466s play in forming 10 car (and to a lesser extent 6 car) services is a big headache in any proposals to eliminate all the MetCams from service. They're clearly needed for this role despite 376s and 707s forming many 10 car diagrams, so the risk with binning them all off is having more overcrowded 8 cars, assuming that a loss of stock overall means 12 car operations are very limited (combined with some platform/siding constraints for 12 car as well).

 

[jamieh27]

I think the 466s are now just extra capacity as they are not PRM compliant to run on their own as of 2021. I know some 465s started to be stored at Wolverton due to low demand and also the 707s running on the metro services.

As for the new trains that the SE boss wants hopefully it won't be too long as it has been nearly 2 years since the proposal you would have thought they would have had more update by now.

It will be surprising if all Networkers from MetCam are withdrawn by December 2024 as they will be running fairly limited stock like Southern.

 

[Mikey C]

The 466s are also used with a 465 to create 6 car services or doubled up with a 465 to provide 8 car services.

 

[jamieh27]

Wow 6 cars on a metro service?

 

[JonathanH]

Wow 6 cars on a metro service?

There are numerous places in London where 6 car formations run on metro services. The traffic density isn't the same on all routes.

 

[southern442]

I think the 466s are now just extra capacity

Extra capacity yes, surplus capacity no. I'd argue very much needed.

 

[alan71]

A 379 > 387 > 377 > 465 cascade involving various bits of GTR is being discussed elsewhere - indeed, that may be the rumour the original poster is referring to - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-fleet-tender.247756/page-11#post-6675833

This is pretty much what will happen & the 466s

 

[hwl]

I believe around 9x 465/9s are now in storage, and 14-15x 466s, leaving 25x and 28-29x respectively.

I suspect the role 466s play in forming 10 car (and to a lesser extent 6 car) services is a big headache in any proposals to eliminate all the MetCams from service. They're clearly needed for this role despite 376s and 707s forming many 10 car diagrams, so the risk with binning them all off is having more overcrowded 8 cars, assuming that a loss of stock overall means 12 car operations are very limited (combined with some platform/siding constraints for 12 car as well).

Thanks. Retaining circa 30 of the 466s would make sense for 10 (6) car capacity point of view, which is probably why it is unlikely to happen through!

 

[Mikey C]

Wow 6 cars on a metro service?

4 car services are regularly seen.

 

[brad465]

There are numerous places in London where 6 car formations run on metro services. The traffic density isn't the same on all routes.

4 car services are regularly seen.

Off peak it appears to be common for Cannon St services to be split into 4/5/6 cars from 8/10 during the peaks. Charing X ones however seem to stay in 8/10 car lengths all day. Victoria-Orpington appears to be 8 car all day, although the frequency is 2tph off peak, 4tph peak.

 

[ScotGG]

Extra capacity yes, surplus capacity no. I'd argue very much needed.

Absolutely the 466s do an essential job.

4 car in the peaks would not work now (they didn't ten years ago) even with passenger numbers down to around levels in the early 2010s - and certainly not with housing growth around many SouthEastern stations in London. Kidbrooke, Dartford, Lewisham, Plumstead, New Cross etc all have thousands of homes coming.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

387/1s and 387/3s do...

as do 377/5s, despite never being used by SN!

Same for those 387 categories you mentioned!

 

[SE%Traveller]

I'm trying to think back to around 2018. Was it around then that the Victoria to Dartford's started running past 8pm and longer than four car in the peaks? I shudder at how overcrowded and bad it was. Let's not go back to that even with passengers numbers down since 2020. With all the new housing around Lewisham too that isn't feasible to give one example of a situation we don't want to return to.

it was from Dec 2012 they began to run all day, 7 days a week (the same timetable change that saw the South London Line withdrawn). I used to commute to Denmark Hill Victoria for 3 years till we moved to kings cross, 4 cars very rate in the Peak (and were heaving if they were) but off peak quite common

 

[gc4946]

The 466s are too valuable to be withdrawn yet because of the need to make up 6- and 10-car formations.
Any stored 466s should be returned to service using parts from 465/2s, which could all then be withdrawn (as opposed to being stored for the time being)

 

[brad465]

What's maybe worth considering is that even if the remaining MetCam Networkers are taken out of service this year, I think they've actually lasted longer than they could have done were certain things surrounding franchise management done differently: from 2014-2021 Southeastern kept receiving several short term contract extensions that effectively made a new fleet investment too risky. Had an extension much greater than 4 years been awarded in 2014, or even in 2018, all the Networkers could have been scrapped by now. One only needs to look at how their 365 cousins were handled, how SWR didn't want (or couldn't use due to contract terms) the very new 707s and perhaps some other examples around the country, to see that the climate at the time favoured ordering new fleets even where existing ones were not life expired.

Then of course, as I mentioned upthread, the MetCams have retained their original traction motors for 30 years; the Hitachi motors in the BREL units are only half as old, and even if they go on another 5 years say, will still not have been used as long numerically.

 

[Wolfie]

There are numerous places in London where 6 car formations run on metro services. The traffic density isn't the same on all routes.

The Overground is all five cars....

 

[branny_rail465]

What's maybe worth considering is that even if the remaining MetCam Networkers are taken out of service this year, I think they've actually lasted longer than they could have done were certain things surrounding franchise management done differently: from 2014-2021 Southeastern kept receiving several short term contract extensions that effectively made a new fleet investment too risky. Had an extension much greater than 4 years been awarded in 2014, or even in 2018, all the Networkers could have been scrapped by now. One only needs to look at how their 365 cousins were handled, how SWR didn't want (or couldn't use due to contract terms) the very new 707s and perhaps some other examples around the country, to see that the climate at the time favoured ordering new fleets even where existing ones were not life expired.

Then of course, as I mentioned upthread, the MetCams have retained their original traction motors for 30 years; the Hitachi motors in the BREL units are only half as old, and even if they go on another 5 years say, will still not have been used as long numerically.

I find it odd that the networkers didnt seem to have much extensive work done to them at least when you compare them to works done on class 321s, class 458s, class 455 (SWR) , Class 317s esspecially, they were a huge fleet had so much work done on them, esspecially with greater anglia. So why couldnt the same be done for the networkers??? retro fitting them extensively may have been a godsend for those units. Seriously.

 

[SolomonSouth]

The MetCam ones are far nicer inside and wasn't it stated more reliable than the BRELs despite retractioning?

Maybe lease costs are higher. The BRELs are dismal inside

I think the main issue with them is cracked bolsters - an issue which does not affect the BREL/ABB units. 465921 had one and it ended up out of use for months. I’m guessing they don’t want it to happen again?

 

[Cowley]

Just to keep this thread vaguely on topic, there’s now a side discussion about the technicalities of some of the things that were being discussed:

Repairing, replacing or refurbishing electrical traction equipment?

What's maybe worth considering is that even if the remaining MetCam Networkers are taken out of service this year, I think they've actually lasted longer than they could have done were certain things surrounding franchise management done differently: from 2014-2021 Southeastern kept receiving...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[warwickshire]

However things aside, does anyone know when the Lease on the Met Cammel 4659 and 4662 cars actually does expire please. Thank You

 

[CarrotPie]

However things aside, does anyone know when the Lease on the Met Cammel 4659 and 4662 cars actually does expire please. Thank You

That's a good question, and I can't seem to find any info anywhere. I've sent them a quick message so we'll see what they come back with!

 

[43096]

However things aside, does anyone know when the Lease on the Met Cammel 4659 and 4662 cars actually does expire please. Thank You

Interetsingly this information has been redacted for both the GEC/MetCamm Networkers and the 707s in the latest version of the SouthEastern contract that I can find (https://assets.publishing.service.g...-se-trains-limited-2021-services-contract.pdf).

Snip of the relevant page is below.



The ABB Networkers are on lease until 17 October 2027, if that helps. I can't think why they would redact it, unless it is embarrassing (having trains stored but being paid for), or perhaps there is a deal that's been done with Angel covering the GEC/MetCamm sets and the 707s, as they own both fleets.

 

[brad465]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought all the Networkers in store are still on lease, just not being used, especially given some have been going to and from Doncaster and may even be being used as parts' donors?

 

[CarrotPie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought all the Networkers in store are still on lease, just not being used, especially given some have been going to and from Doncaster and may even be being used as parts' donors?

I seem to remember that too. Still, if they go off-lease in (say) 2027, there's a strong incentive to get them replaced before then.

That's a good question, and I can't seem to find any info anywhere. I've sent them a quick message so we'll see what they come back with!

The WhatsApp person didn't know but they said the contact form people should know. It's under OLR anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard to find out.

 

[LowLevel]

I seem to remember that too. Still, if they go off-lease in (say) 2027, there's a strong incentive to get them replaced before then.

The WhatsApp person didn't know but they said the contact form people should know. It's under OLR anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard to find out.

After post #4 of the thread the social media people at South Eastern are probably asking what they've done to deserve repeated questions by railway enthusiasts about a subject they have no knowledge or interest in (rolling stock leasing dates).