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Why does Okehampton - Bere Alston get all the attention, when the case is stronger for reopening to Bideford?

yorksrob

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That would entirely depend if it's Padstow-Bodmin, or Padstow-Okehampton :D

( the latter is probably up there in the "worst cases for reopening" list! )

Padstow+Wadebridge is something around 13,000 pop. Not sure how much holiday traffic you'd pull in - Padstow's about as on the coast as Barnstaple is. It might stimulate some local public transport, I suppose - Polzeath would always be a ferry & bus ride though. Surprisingly the route seems intact all the way, including even Padstow station - although the solution to getting through Wadebridge should be interesting given there's a road directly on the route & no way around. Almost made for tram-trains.

Have you seen how busy Padstow gets with tourists ?

The bus route is also very long and windy and not particularly suited for it IMO.

A reopened Padstow line would connect a tourist honeypot with two decent sized towns (Padstow and Bodmin) with the main line, so should certainly be worth considering.

However, its a different prospect to building the route through mid-Devon. Fundamentally, the bit in the middle is a bit of a loss leader that makes the overall whole more useful. The section between Bentham and Giggleswick on the Little North Western probably doesn't generate much traffic of itself, but it makes the whole route vastly more useful than just having a branch to Bentham and the line through Settle.

There is no business case for Padstow as a private sector initiative.
But there is no case for Tavistock-Okehampton at all.

How many people do you think want to travel from Okehampton to Plymouth using a route consisting of a transit of empty moorland before an achingly slow crawl through the Tamar valley?
Padstow has a comparable population to Tavistock after all as well as being a significant tourist destination.

If people want to go to Plymouth or West it won't make much difference to them whether they're travelling over moorland or a rainforest.

Evidence for these unsupported assertions? I dare say the Transport and Rail Ministers, and HMTreasury, would be pleased to consider a proposal and supporting business case for a private sector initiative along these lines.

Ministers and HM Treasury would dearly love to not to have to pay for any public infrastructure or services, but that's not how the world works.
 
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AlastairFraser

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That's one of DCC's better moves - it's a trail precisely to preserve the trackbed. The area is flat & mostly empty, I can't imagine it'd be a major impediment. A more major impediment is it going round the coast when the road goes straight, but if it's really getting choked then I guess it's worth a look. As reopenings of completely closed lines go it has to be one of the easier ideas, pretty much everything possible was done to make it simple. If only there was a grant available to get new china clay wagons in the early 80s, there might have been trains to Bideford ( and even the odd one to Torrington ) for a decade or two :s

Spending money on better access to Barnstaple station would not be the worst thing to do, I feel.
Bus lanes on the A39 would make more sense surely.
The Tarka Trail is very popular, and the railway wouldn't serve Bideford particularly well.
I'd say if we wanted to reopen any section, Ilfracombe would make sense as the road alternative is really substandard, and you could reopen it as some form of light rail without encroaching on the most popular section of the Tarka Trail.
 

bramling

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Bus lanes on the A39 would make more sense surely.
The Tarka Trail is very popular, and the railway wouldn't serve Bideford particularly well.
I'd say if we wanted to reopen any section, Ilfracombe would make sense as the road alternative is really substandard, and you could reopen it as some form of light rail without encroaching on the most popular section of the Tarka Trail.

Why wouldn’t Bideford be well served? I know the old site is on the wrong side of the water, but it really isn’t that remote from the town centre.
 

AlastairFraser

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Why wouldn’t Bideford be well served? I know the old site is on the wrong side of the water, but it really isn’t that remote from the town centre.
Most of the residential areas are on the west side and a long way from the station, so the bus services most of Bideford better than any railway could.
 

Irascible

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Bus lanes on the A39 would make more sense surely.
The Tarka Trail is very popular, and the railway wouldn't serve Bideford particularly well.
I'd say if we wanted to reopen any section, Ilfracombe would make sense as the road alternative is really substandard, and you could reopen it as some form of light rail without encroaching on the most popular section of the Tarka Trail.

I'm a little surprised there weren't bus lanes from the start, tbh. Yes, the trail is popular, but being put there in case rails wanted to be put down again is a little more nuanced than being put there just because there's a way where there were once rails ( like across the river ). If there's more benefit in the railway, then it'd have to move. However... how many crossings were there? I think there were three just in Bideford, and the line wasn't exactly very segregated, dim memories of the rails still being there in 1981 or so suggests. I'm fairly sure you'd have to put new crossings in too rather than bridge, but I'd have to go and dig up some old maps.

Ilfracombe would take .. effort, and if you're going to reopen that then surely just adding it to the existing Barnstaple-Exeter would make the most sense.

* New bridge at Barnstaple. I'd suggest don't try going to the old Town, just turn right after the Bideford arch & parallel the road bridge ( at least someone's built a bridge there relatively recently! ) & pick up the trackbed there.
* Braunton - it's not *heavily* built on, but there are some buildings, you'd need a bridge to the south and what you'd do about the old crossing just N of the station I don't know. That's a nightmareishly busy junction & honestly the coast road needs a bypass around the place rather than trying to funnel literally everyone through that junction in the middle of the town. The line was double track, so I suppose you could try sinking a single line into a cutting so any bridge needed there can be rather lower. You want to serve Braunton, it's relatively large.
* Mortehoe is private, but I'm not sure you'd want to reopen it anyway. Would serve people wanting a day at Woollacombe if there was a connecting bus, but I suspect locals are just going to drive. I haven't checked to see if there's a more suitable new alignment with a better station locaton, but I suspect the old route picked the most sensible anyway.
* Would need a new Ilfracombe station a bit S of the old one where there's a SSSI very close, iirc - plus some sort of shuttle bus into the town or nobody would climb up there. Ilfracombe does have some very nasty deprivation, not sure if a railway is really a cure but I'm not sure what else you can do for the place long term.
 

A0wen

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The Bideford-Barnstaple road suffers considerable congestion during the day. Reopening the line would inevitably relieve this.
The only elephant in the room would be what to do about the Tarka Trail,the current use of the trackbed. Thankfully it’s Council owned but I can imagine the cycle lobby will be quite vocal.

Bit in bold - but would it?

Has the reopening of the Borders railway reduced traffic volumes on the A7 for example ?
 

yorksrob

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It was in the 80s, but I don't think that guarantees a reinstatement now.

I'm sick and tired of these lobby groups taking over a railway route "to preserve it for future rail use" then squealing when someone actually wants to rebuild the railway line.

The Bideford station site is as near to the centre of town as you're likely to get.
 

SynthD

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I’m not disputing what happened in the 80s, but how useful that promise is 40 years later, with current priorities. It is the right site and line, for a project that has different questions asked compared to the last time money was spent on it.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'm sick and tired of these lobby groups taking over a railway route "to preserve it for future rail use" then squealing when someone actually wants to rebuild the railway line.

The Bideford station site is as near to the centre of town as you're likely to get.
Are there many of those type of lobby groups with same "rail preservation" ethos in Britain today and are some of these just wanting to reopen as a heritage railway rather than a full heavy-rail reopening?
 

yorksrob

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Are there many of those type of lobby groups with same "rail preservation" ethos in Britain today and are some of these just wanting to reopen as a heritage railway rather than a full heavy-rail reopening?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the preserved railway scene is currently about as big as it can be to remain sustainable.
 

Ashley Hill

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If it took 100 cars off the road it would be reducing congestion. The potential for Bideford-Barnstaple passengers is there. Who would have thought there would be a demand for Crediton-Okehampton,but clearly there is.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If it took 100 cars off the road it would be reducing congestion. The potential for Bideford-Barnstaple passengers is there. Who would have thought there would be a demand for Crediton-Okehampton,but clearly there is.
With regards to the 100 cars above, how many of those would still be used by family members for various reasons, therefore still incurring car insurance and running costs. There are enough "rural village areas" in that area of this thread and car use becomes more essential the more rural it gets
 

RichHI

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But the Okehampton - Bere Alston line just seems to attract all the attention for no particular reason.
Probably because opening that far would make the business case for reopening the LSWR route to Plymouth and providing and alternate line to the West Country in the case of weather or other issues. I think it is a stepping stone.
 

Ashley Hill

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With regards to the 100 cars above, how many of those would still be used by family members for various reasons, therefore still incurring car insurance and running costs. There are enough "rural village areas" in that area of this thread and car use becomes more essential the more rural it gets
Northam,Appledore,Westward Ho! and East-The-Water are hardly rural villages. All of them have to travel on busy roads to get to Barnstaple and beyond. Bideford could become a rail hub for the area. The only thing that lets the original site down is its lack of parking. Then add the potential passengers from Instow and Fremington if those stations were reopened.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Northam,Appledore,Westward Ho! and East-The-Water are hardly rural villages. All of them have to travel on busy roads to get to Barnstaple and beyond. Bideford could become a rail hub for the area. The only thing that lets the original site down is its lack of parking. Then add the potential passengers from Instow and Fremington if those stations were reopened.
When I mentioned villages, I had in mind those not all that far removed from Barnstable. Many years ago, we had a touring car holiday in that area and my late wife was a very good photographer, with village churches being one of her likes. Two villages that spring to mind are Parkham and West Buckland. How would residents there manage without cars?
 

simonw

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When I mentioned villages, I had in mind those not all that far removed from Barnstable. Many years ago, we had a touring car holiday in that area and my late wife was a very good photographer, with village churches being one of her likes. Two villages that spring to mind are Parkham and West Buckland. How would residents there manage without cars?
Just so, and a coach or bus is much more use to those who don't have cars than a railhead 5 or ten miles away.
 

simonw

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I’m so reminded of people who said this about Okehampton before it reopened.
I don't understand your comment Reopening a railway, doesn't change the truth about a bus through a village being more useful to people living there with no access to their own transport than a rail line 10 miles away.
 

AlastairFraser

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I'm a little surprised there weren't bus lanes from the start, tbh. Yes, the trail is popular, but being put there in case rails wanted to be put down again is a little more nuanced than being put there just because there's a way where there were once rails ( like across the river ). If there's more benefit in the railway, then it'd have to move. However... how many crossings were there? I think there were three just in Bideford, and the line wasn't exactly very segregated, dim memories of the rails still being there in 1981 or so suggests. I'm fairly sure you'd have to put new crossings in too rather than bridge, but I'd have to go and dig up some old maps.

Ilfracombe would take .. effort, and if you're going to reopen that then surely just adding it to the existing Barnstaple-Exeter would make the most sense.

* New bridge at Barnstaple. I'd suggest don't try going to the old Town, just turn right after the Bideford arch & parallel the road bridge ( at least someone's built a bridge there relatively recently! ) & pick up the trackbed there.
* Braunton - it's not *heavily* built on, but there are some buildings, you'd need a bridge to the south and what you'd do about the old crossing just N of the station I don't know. That's a nightmareishly busy junction & honestly the coast road needs a bypass around the place rather than trying to funnel literally everyone through that junction in the middle of the town. The line was double track, so I suppose you could try sinking a single line into a cutting so any bridge needed there can be rather lower. You want to serve Braunton, it's relatively large.
* Mortehoe is private, but I'm not sure you'd want to reopen it anyway. Would serve people wanting a day at Woollacombe if there was a connecting bus, but I suspect locals are just going to drive. I haven't checked to see if there's a more suitable new alignment with a better station locaton, but I suspect the old route picked the most sensible anyway.
* Would need a new Ilfracombe station a bit S of the old one where there's a SSSI very close, iirc - plus some sort of shuttle bus into the town or nobody would climb up there. Ilfracombe does have some very nasty deprivation, not sure if a railway is really a cure but I'm not sure what else you can do for the place long term.
I genuinely don't think the railway between Barnstaple and Bideford would get a huge amount of traffic sadly. If it was able to continue to Northam and Appledore, maybe, but the route is too far away from the population centre of the Bideford/Appledore/Northam conurbation to make a dent in passengers numbers.

As for the Ilfracombe line, I agree with your routing outside of Barnstaple and Ilfracombe, but it needs to be light rail so it can reach the seafront in Ilfracombe and the bus station/town centre in Barnstaple.
It's better access to jobs in Barnstaple and Exeter that would help Ilfracombe out of season in my mind.
 

BayPaul

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Probably because opening that far would make the business case for reopening the LSWR route to Plymouth and providing and alternate line to the West Country in the case of weather or other issues. I think it is a stepping stone.
Except that the LSWR route really isn't an alternative to Plymouth. It bypasses all of the population centres in the south and is much slower than the rail replacement bus from Tiverton Pkwy to Newton Abbot. If an alternative route is needed, a Haldon tunnel route would be genuinely useful, giving a significant reduction in journey times to Plymouth, Cornwall and Torbay.
 

AlastairFraser

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Except that the LSWR route really isn't an alternative to Plymouth. It bypasses all of the population centres in the south and is much slower than the rail replacement bus from Tiverton Pkwy to Newton Abbot. If an alternative route is needed, a Haldon tunnel route would be genuinely useful, giving a significant reduction in journey times to Plymouth, Cornwall and Torbay.
It wouldn't just be about all weather. It is a bonus that it would operate when Dawlish is down, but it would provide better railheads for a large swathe of North Devon and Cornwall as the primary purpose.
 

yorksrob

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I don't understand your comment Reopening a railway, doesn't change the truth about a bus through a village being more useful to people living there with no access to their own transport than a rail line 10 miles away.

But a railway service can be very useful to people living in towns with no access to their own transport.

Your point about villages doesn't negate that.

Except that the LSWR route really isn't an alternative to Plymouth. It bypasses all of the population centres in the south and is much slower than the rail replacement bus from Tiverton Pkwy to Newton Abbot. If an alternative route is needed, a Haldon tunnel route would be genuinely useful, giving a significant reduction in journey times to Plymouth, Cornwall and Torbay.

Not much good at integrating Okehampton and Tavistock to the network though.

We established in the thread in 2014 that there was around five minutes difference in timings on the two routes when maintained.
 

uglymonkey

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Durning one of the "rebuilds" around the station at Barnstaple, did they not put a massive road on an embankment right across the Bideford trackbed (just after the buffer stops). I suspect that this alone ( tunnel or move the road again) and its cost would preclude any chance of opening Bideford/Barnstaple again
 

AlastairFraser

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Durning one of the "rebuilds" around the station at Barnstaple, did they not put a massive road on an embankment right across the Bideford trackbed (just after the buffer stops). I suspect that this alone ( tunnel or move the road again) and its cost would preclude any chance of opening Bideford/Barnstaple again
It's only a couple of hundred metres you'd need to pass underneath, so it's not insurmountable.
It's more what you do when you get to Bideford.
 

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