Which they could remove at any time. It's their block and are choosing to use it. Drinking the Kool-Aid doesn't change that.
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ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend
- Thread starter mandub
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Which they could remove at any time. It's their block and are choosing to use it. Drinking the Kool-Aid doesn't change that.
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R
RailUK Forums
Indeed. This will fall on deaf ears, though.
The reasons have been clearly explained. If you won’t accept them, and want to keep pretending ASLEF rather than the government is to blame, that’s up to you. I don’t see any sign of the union’s approach changing while ever the membership is happy to continue as we are…
Simply.
Ballot held. ASLEF members would reject the offer.
The DfT would change the wording of the offer, claim it’s a new offer and demand another ballot
Ballot held. ASLEF members would reject the offer.
The DfT would change the wording of the offer, claim it’s a new offer and demand another ballot
Ballot held. ASLEF members would reject the offer.
The DfT would change the wording of the offer, claim it’s a new offer and demand another ballot
Repeat.
So what would the ballot ultimately achieved, apart from no strike action and delay?
Bantamzen
Established Member
Even more simply.
ASLEF have ballot on the offer. The members reject it, as they will, ball firmly back in the court of RDG / DfT. And if ASLEF put in the counter offer as I've suggested, then who knows? ASLEF members might get a nice back payment that they could use to take the family on holiday, or invest, or whatever they choose...
I’ve told you what will happens when you put the ball back in the court of the RDG / DFT.
If you think it’s as simply as ASLEF putting in a counter offer and it being accepted you’re living in cloud cuckoo land! The DFT know what offer will settle the dispute. They done it with the RMT.
Bantamzen
Established Member
You've told me what you think will happen. Because you don't actually know, unless of course you work in DfT in which case you probably shouldn't be commenting on this matter as per the Civil Service Code
The union (following its democratically agreed constitution, fully supported by its membership) has already rejected it, so the ball has been firmly back in the government’s court for the last year.
l‘ve clearly got a better idea of what will happen than you…. as has most of the people on this forum!
12LDA28C
Established Member
Really? How many ASLEF members have you canvassed to form that opinion?
Bantamzen
Established Member
Let me guess. The impass will continue until the general election. Then you will all be hoping that a newly elected Labour government will come charging in and instantly offer ASLEF members a sweet deal to end the dispute...
Well here's an alternative ending. Labour get into power, find the the finances of the country are utterly and totally fubar. So they have to focus on getting the nation's finances back on track, and don't have time to worry about a dispute which barely raises any heckles these days.
Oh and just have a think about this. If no settlement is reached before the GE, the pay claim will reach back up to 3 years. That means that an incoming government will have to find 4-5% per year for employees on something like 50k pa (is that a fair average?). If you think about the maths, that's a lot of money to come out of a first budget of a new government.
whoosh
Established Member
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- 1,375
They have suggested that Year Two and changes to T&Cs be taken to local TOC level for negotiation. They have offered this as a 'way out' of the dispute to Rail Delivery Group since the last meeting in Spring 2023. It has not been taken up.
Because.... drum roll... that wouldn't prolong the dispute and push the Minimum Service Level agenda.
Cuckoo land indeed. "Just make a counter offer." "Just ignore the fact you are paid negotiators acting on other's behalfs, use their money to ask THEM! [And ignore the strike ballots to continue action]"
Not budgeting properly and keeping money owed safely tucked away?
Don't tell us: ASLEF'S fault right?
I actually think your alternative ending is the most likely. They might make the right noises now to get the votes but SHOULD they get in I think they’ll quickly change their tune.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Well drumroll.... ASLEF haven't put the offer out to its members, so no progress.. I mean after nearly a year this should be chuffing obvious right?
The entire reason this impasse exists is because:
- The government insist on the deal being put to the membership
- ASLEF's decision to make reject the deal at an executive level means that the above won't (not cannot) happen
No, not at all. That would be entirely the government's fault. And it could get worse, they could pull the offer entirely prior to the election and spend the money on giving their mates a last minute tax cut, knowing full well that a Labour government would struggle to balance the books & find the cash for ASLEF's back pay... Just saying like...
Or "free money" as one of them put it.
Arguably ASLEF has something the Government doesn't. Time.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Possibly, assuming a new government coming in after the GE takes a favourable view of the dispute. This is not guaranteed.
No, there’s been no progress because the government doesn’t want there to be. That is chuffing obvious to everyone concerned!
You mean you don’t want them to
. We are prepared to take the risk…Bantamzen
Established Member
There's been no progress because both sides won't budge from their positions. That's the most chuffing obvious thing!
I mean your faith in them may be misplaced. Starmer hasn't exactly got behind any of the industrial disputes, there's maybe a message there? Personally, if I were in this dispute, I'd prefer the union land a similar deal to what the RMT did before the GE.You mean you don’t want them to
Strike ballots have laws governing how they must be done. You don't need a ballot in order not to strike. An electronic referendum is perfectly legitimate way of accepting or rejecting an offer, it's separate to a strike ballot. RMT have used them.
So you're saying that if ASLEF simply back down and agree to a ballot, that will bring about the end of this dispute?
Bantamzen
Established Member
No.
For a start it is not a backdown. And secondly it may not bring about and end to the dispute, but it might move it forward a bit.
newtownmgr
Member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 627
It as a backdown tho & goes against the aslef charter.
As far as I am aware our own drivers aslef company council had been in promising negotiations regarding productivity and pay with their TOC until this was shut down by the DfT over 2 years ago. It's now been 5 years since my TOC gave their drivers any pay increase.
Bantamzen
Established Member
No, it would be a backdown by the executive. Whom by the way don't lose anything during the dispute.
lol
No, it would be a backdown inflicted on the members.
If we weren’t happy with what the ASLEF negotiators are doing, we would have stopped mandating further strike action. You seem to be really struggling with this concept.
You can type away all you like, your line of thought doesn’t speak for the ASLEF membership.
This is very much your individual opinion which is incompatible with the ASLEF balloting.
The position you keep repeating is all and well good if you're negotiating in good faith, but it assumes the following sequence of events:
1. ASLEF put offer to vote
2. ASLEF members reject it out of hand, which they will
3. Government says "oh yes, you've shown us your strength of feeling - let's put together a better offer"
4. Things move forward
In my opinion the actual sequence of events would be:
1. ASLEF put offer to vote
2. ASLEF members reject it out of hand, which they will
3. Government says "well, the offer is there, let us know if you change your mind"
4. We continue exactly as we are now, except ASLEF has broken it's own charter at the Government's behest and spent money on a pointless vote
My opinion is that your opinion assumes good faith on the part of the Government, of which there is none, and that doing as they ask will do precisely nothing to move the situation forward and therefore is irrelevant.
All it would do is allow ASLEF to say "we've done what they ask and they won't move" and the Government to say "greedy train drivers have rejected a fair offer which would take their average wage to £65,000 per annum which is still there if they want to come back to it".
Your solution is not a solution and all parties are fully aware of it. This is not the usual good faith negotiations between participants with an interest.
Exactly, it get old hearing the same tripe that it should be put to members.
Bantamzen
Established Member
How would taking a ballot on the offer be a backdown? Unions are built on democratic processes that allow their members to have their say on key issues. Yet here we are with union members arguing that they should listen to their leaders, that they pay for, and not have a say.
If this is the modern day perception of how unions work, then this is a bad day.
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