The blocker is the government's insistence on a members voting
Which they could remove at any time. It's their block and are choosing to use it. Drinking the Kool-Aid doesn't change that.
The blocker is the government's insistence on a members voting
The Government have moved the RMT grades to a fixed no strings offer for year one (2022), and year two (2023) will be negotiated on TOC by TOC basis for changes to T&Cs, rather than 'one size fits all'.
They chose to change the second year to a more reasonable offer to halt RMT action and chose NOT to do the same with ASLEF to leave the 'greedy train drivers' out on a limb to then enact the Minimum Service Levels.
That's what this is all about. The entire rail industry was provoked into strike action, it was really inconvenient, a solution (that was in their Manifesto!) was pushed through (with less opposition than if their had been no dispute), and now they just have to enact it with the 'greedy drivers' who are the only ones who haven't settled yet (because unlike the RMT, they still have a 'one size fits all' offer).
If ASLEF were to spend money putting an unacceptable deal to a vote, then the government would conjour up something else to stall things.
Just cast your mind back to 2022 - for the ENTIRE YEAR ASLEF were asking for meetings about pay, and being ignored; Cast your mind back to January 2023 - the first offer (5% year one, 4% year two with loads of strings) unnegotiated before any meetings and sent to the media first (who of course pitched it as 9%, playing down it was over two years, and didn't mention the strings).
Then meetings, things looking up, then a worse offer. 4% year one (A reduction. Remember, there's no strings in year one in either the first or second offer, so there's no need for a reduction in year one - other than to provoke), 4% year two with loads of strings still.
Then the settlement with RMT last December, which everyone from the layman bystander to industry expert says would settle the ASLEF dispute as well.
But no.
The government wants to ride to the rescue and enforce Minimum Service Levels, and having invested so much into this now (including suppressing growth in the industry and the general economy by doing so) are reluctant to back down. They will conjour up another stumbling block as they dont want to just back down and settle. They want MSLs.
But having been warned that their introduction will only cause prolonged disruption, and the TOCs don't want them because of this, it might well just drag on until the election, with government blaming the TOCs for not using the law it has provided.
If MSLs do happen, it's going to be interesting as Network Rail and whoever are Fleet Maintainers are going to be shelling out a pretty penny on every delay caused by every little niggling fault on one of those days.
Perhaps another reason why they haven't been implemented?
We need a change of Government to get through this impasse, because, in short, you can't negotiate with someone who won't talk and who makes a worse offer on the rare occasion you do, and who makes out that you are awkward because you are the only one who hasn't settled yet, but refuses to even consider making you the same as what it took the others to settle.
This Government do not want this settled.
However I still can't quite understand the resistance from ASLEF members to having a ballot on the offer, as it will have no detrimental effect on them or the union, but might enable progress. Its a chance for the union to get onto the front foot as far as I can see.
I still can't quite understand the resistance from ASLEF members to having a ballot on the offer.
Even more simply.Simply.
Ballot held. ASLEF members would reject the offer.
The DfT would change the wording of the offer, claim it’s a new offer and demand another ballot
Ballot held. ASLEF members would reject the offer.
The DfT would change the wording of the offer, claim it’s a new offer and demand another ballot
Ballot held. ASLEF members would reject the offer.
The DfT would change the wording of the offer, claim it’s a new offer and demand another ballot
Repeat.
So what would the ballot ultimately achieved, apart from no strike action and delay?
Even more simply.
ASLEF have ballot on the offer. The members reject it, as they will, ball firmly back in the court of RDG / DfT. And if ASLEF put in the counter offer as I've suggested, then who knows? ASLEF members might get a nice back payment that they could use to take the family on holiday, or invest, or whatever they choose...
You've told me what you think will happen. Because you don't actually know, unless of course you work in DfT in which case you probably shouldn't be commenting on this matter as per the Civil Service CodeI’ve told you what will happens when you put the ball back in the court of the RDG / DFT.
If you think it’s as simply as ASLEF putting in a counter offer and it being accepted you’re living in cloud cuckoo land! The DFT know what offer will settle the dispute. They done it with the RMT.
Even more simply.
ASLEF have ballot on the offer. The members reject it, as they will, ball firmly back in the court of RDG / DfT. And if ASLEF put in the counter offer as I've suggested, then who knows? ASLEF members might get a nice back payment that they could use to take the family on holiday, or invest, or whatever they choose...
You've told me what you think will happen. Because you don't actually know, unless of course you work in DfT in which case you probably shouldn't be commenting on this matter as per the Civil Service Code
Indeed. Members may have less of a desire than ASLEF to give the Government a bloody nose, and may feel that the offer on the table is acceptable to them.
Let me guess. The impass will continue until the general election. Then you will all be hoping that a newly elected Labour government will come charging in and instantly offer ASLEF members a sweet deal to end the dispute...l‘ve clearly got a better idea of what will happen than you…. as has most of the people on this forum!
Even more simply.
ASLEF have ballot on the offer. The members reject it, as they will, ball firmly back in the court of RDG / DfT. And if ASLEF put in the counter offer as I've suggested, then who knows? ASLEF members might get a nice back payment that they could use to take the family on holiday, or invest, or whatever they choose...
I’ve told you what will happens when you put the ball back in the court of the RDG / DFT.
If you think it’s as simply as ASLEF putting in a counter offer and it being accepted you’re living in cloud cuckoo land! The DFT know what offer will settle the dispute. They done it with the RMT.
Not budgeting properly and keeping money owed safely tucked away?Oh and just have a think about this. If no settlement is reached before the GE, the pay claim will reach back up to 3 years. That means that an incoming government will have to find 4-5% per year for employees on something like 50k pa (is that a fair average?). If you think about the maths, that's a lot of money to come out of a first budget of a new government.
Let me guess. The impass will continue until the general election. Then you will all be hoping that a newly elected Labour government will come charging in and instantly offer ASLEF members a sweet deal to end the dispute...
Well here's an alternative ending. Labour get into power, find the the finances of the country are utterly and totally fubar. So they have to focus on getting the nation's finances back on track, and don't have time to worry about a dispute which barely raises any heckles these days.
Well drumroll.... ASLEF haven't put the offer out to its members, so no progress.. I mean after nearly a year this should be chuffing obvious right?They have suggested that Year Two and changes to T&Cs be taken to local TOC level for negotiation. They have offered this as a 'way out' of the dispute to Rail Delivery Group since the last meeting in Spring 2023. It has not been taken up.
Because.... drum roll... that wouldn't prolong the dispute and push the Minimum Service Level agenda.
No, not at all. That would be entirely the government's fault. And it could get worse, they could pull the offer entirely prior to the election and spend the money on giving their mates a last minute tax cut, knowing full well that a Labour government would struggle to balance the books & find the cash for ASLEF's back pay... Just saying like...Not budgeting properly and keeping money owed safely tucked away?
Don't tell us: ASLEF'S fault right?
Or "free money" as one of them put it.As for the TOCs dont they just get their management fee regardless?
Result: Stalemate. But the government does have something ASLEF and it's members don't. The money...
Possibly, assuming a new government coming in after the GE takes a favourable view of the dispute. This is not guaranteed.Arguably ASLEF has something the Government doesn't. Time.
Well drumroll.... ASLEF haven't put the offer out to its members, so no progress.. I mean after nearly a year this should be chuffing obvious right?
Possibly, assuming a new government coming in after the GE takes a favourable view of the dispute. This is not guaranteed.
The certainty of bad faith, or the possibility of not?Possibly, assuming a new government coming in after the GE takes a favourable view of the dispute. This is not guaranteed.
There's been no progress because both sides won't budge from their positions. That's the most chuffing obvious thing!No, there’s been no progress because the government doesn’t want there to be. That is chuffing obvious to everyone concerned!
I mean your faith in them may be misplaced. Starmer hasn't exactly got behind any of the industrial disputes, there's maybe a message there? Personally, if I were in this dispute, I'd prefer the union land a similar deal to what the RMT did before the GE.You mean you don’t want them to . We are prepared to take the risk…
Strike ballots have laws governing how they must be done. You don't need a ballot in order not to strike. An electronic referendum is perfectly legitimate way of accepting or rejecting an offer, it's separate to a strike ballot. RMT have used them.It can‘t be done online for the same reasons we don’t vote in General Elections online.
So you're saying that if ASLEF simply back down and agree to a ballot, that will bring about the end of this dispute?There's been no progress because both sides won't budge from their positions. That's the most chuffing obvious thing!
No.So you're saying that if ASLEF simply back down and agree to a ballot, that will bring about the end of this dispute?
It as a backdown tho & goes against the aslef charter.No.
For a start it is not a backdown. And secondly it may not bring about and end to the dispute, but it might move it forward a bit.
As far as I am aware our own drivers aslef company council had been in promising negotiations regarding productivity and pay with their TOC until this was shut down by the DfT over 2 years ago. It's now been 5 years since my TOC gave their drivers any pay increase.Precisely. Agreements are there to be reached. It’s well within reach. Am I right in saying that ASLEF reached a technical agreement in pronciple, on multiple occasions, with the DFT & RDG, only for those agreements to be vandalised at the 11th hr due to direct interference by the Tory government??
Seems to me the common denominator in the dispute is the
No, it would be a backdown by the executive. Whom by the way don't lose anything during the dispute.It as a backdown tho & goes against the aslef charter.
lolNo, it would be a backdown by the executive. Whom by the way don't lose anything during the dispute.
The position you keep repeating is all and well good if you're negotiating in good faith, but it assumes the following sequence of events:Well drumroll.... ASLEF haven't put the offer out to its members, so no progress.. I mean after nearly a year this should be chuffing obvious right?
The entire reason this impasse exists is because:
Result: Stalemate. But the government does have something ASLEF and it's members don't. The money...
- The government insist on the deal being put to the membership
- ASLEF's decision to make reject the deal at an executive level means that the above won't (not cannot) happen
No, not at all. That would be entirely the government's fault. And it could get worse, they could pull the offer entirely prior to the election and spend the money on giving their mates a last minute tax cut, knowing full well that a Labour government would struggle to balance the books & find the cash for ASLEF's back pay... Just saying like...
Exactly, it get old hearing the same tripe that it should be put to members.lol
No, it would be a backdown inflicted on the members.
If we weren’t happy with what the ASLEF negotiators are doing, we would have stopped mandating further strike action. You seem to be really struggling with this concept.
You can type away all you like, your line of thought doesn’t speak for the ASLEF membership.
This is very much your individual opinion which is incompatible with the ASLEF balloting.
How would taking a ballot on the offer be a backdown? Unions are built on democratic processes that allow their members to have their say on key issues. Yet here we are with union members arguing that they should listen to their leaders, that they pay for, and not have a say.lol
No, it would be a backdown inflicted on the members.
If we weren’t happy with what the ASLEF negotiators are doing, we would have stopped mandating further strike action. You seem to be really struggling with this concept.
You can type away all you like, your line of thought doesn’t speak for the ASLEF membership.
This is very much your individual opinion which is incompatible with the ASLEF balloting.