Manchester to Leeds Northern vs TPE fares

amahy · 7 May 2025

Does anybody know what the real reason is that Leeds to Manchester advanced and specific TOC only fares are always cheaper on Northern via the Calder Valley line than TPE via Huddersfield? Not only is the mileage physically longer on Northern, but it also takes longer, the trains are shorter, and generally, the Calder Valley line is not very well equipped for taking longer distance passengers between Manchester and Leeds.

The cheaper fares encourage more people to use Northern’s services, which are frequently short formed, where a 2 car set often leaves people on the platforms. This is especially frustrating for people using local stations on the Calder Valley line, as a Leeds to Manchester passenger could be taking up space on a full train, resulting in a long wait for passengers for the local stations, which could be resolved by simply making TPE’s fares cheaper.

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Bletchleyite · 7 May 2025

amahy said:
Does anybody know what the real reason is that Leeds to Manchester advanced and specific TOC only fares are always cheaper on Northern via the Calder Valley line than TPE via Huddersfield?

Competition. And nobody has yet thought about the fact that Northern and TPE are effectively now the same TOC and this no longer makes any sense for the reasons you state.

pokemonsuper9 · 7 May 2025

amahy said:
Does anybody know what the real reason is that Leeds to Manchester advanced and specific TOC only fares are always cheaper on Northern via the Calder Valley line than TPE via Huddersfield? Not only is the mileage physically longer on Northern, but it also takes longer, the trains are shorter, and generally, the Calder Valley line is not very well equipped for taking longer distance passengers between Manchester and Leeds.

The cheaper fares encourage more people to use Northern’s services, which are frequently short formed, where a 2 car set often leaves people on the platforms. This is especially frustrating for people using local stations on the Calder Valley line, as a Leeds to Manchester passenger could be taking up space on a full train, resulting in a long wait for passengers for the local stations, which could be resolved by simply making TPE’s fares cheaper.

Because Northern get more money when people buy the Northern only tickets, and same for TPE, it doesn't matter that it goes into the same pot now.

Maybe also having the cheaper fares brings a couple people to use the train that wouldn't have otherwise.

Also in my experience the TPE is also typically very busy.

Rail Ranger · 7 May 2025

A similar situation exists between Manchester and Sheffield.

Watershed · 7 May 2025

It doesn't make much sense nowadays, given that both operators are controlled by the government and (supposedly) run in a joined-up manner.

However the historical context is that once TPE services were split out into their own franchise around 2004, there was a financial incentive for the contemporary Northern franchise holder to create fares that encouraged people to use their slower services. That way, they would at least capture some more revenue from passengers towards the 'budget' end of the significant cross-Pennine market - since they would only get a very small share of the revenue from "Any Permitted" fares, as ORCATS distribution would not favour their overtaken services.

I don't have fares data going back far enough to say exactly when the "via Hebden Bridge" fares were created, but they were in place by 2014. I guess nobody has seen fit to remove them despite TPE services now being diverted via the Calder Valley increasingly often during engineering works, and the advent of cheap Advance fares even for short local journeys on Northern.

Mcr Warrior · 7 May 2025

TPE set the fares between Leeds and Manchester and runs the (usually) faster trains. Northern offer you a cheaper alternative, but using their trains only, so less flexibility. It's also slower, and doesn't get you to Piccadilly, if that's the Manchester station you were wanting, but you pays your money and takes your choice. A throwback to when TPE and Northern were in competition.

Howardh · 8 May 2025

Mcr Warrior said:
TPE set the fares between Leeds and Manchester and runs the (usually) faster trains. Northern offer you a cheaper alternative, but using their trains only, so less flexibility. It's also slower, and doesn't get you to Piccadilly, if that's the Manchester station you were wanting, but you pays your money and takes your choice. A throwback to when TPE and Northern were in competition.

Is it possible to buy Leeds to Any Manchester Station, then use Northern + TPE from Victoria to use the curve to Piccadilly (for the same price as Leeds - MCV)? Must add that I think there's a free bus from MCV to Piccadilly if that's not possible.

yorkie · 8 May 2025

Howardh said:
Is it possible to buy Leeds to Any Manchester Station, then use Northern + TPE from Victoria to use the curve to Piccadilly (for the same price as Leeds - MCV)? Must add that I think there's a free bus from MCV to Piccadilly if that's not possible.

Yes, Leeds to Manchester Stns is valid via Piccadilly to Victoria, if that's what you are asking.

amahy said:
Does anybody know what the real reason is that Leeds to Manchester advanced and specific TOC only fares are always cheaper on Northern via the Calder Valley line than TPE via Huddersfield? Not only is the mileage physically longer on Northern, but it also takes longer, the trains are shorter, and generally, the Calder Valley line is not very well equipped for taking longer distance passengers between Manchester and Leeds.

The cheaper fares encourage more people to use Northern’s services, which are frequently short formed, where a 2 car set often leaves people on the platforms. This is especially frustrating for people using local stations on the Calder Valley line, as a Leeds to Manchester passenger could be taking up space on a full train, resulting in a long wait for passengers for the local stations, which could be resolved by simply making TPE’s fares cheaper.

I expect the cheaper fares will disappear in due course. Anyone who wants them should grab them while they can; people in high up places do read this forum, so suggestions to abolish cheaper fares do sometimes get listened to!

Tazi Hupefi · 8 May 2025

Sections 172-177 of the Companies Act 2006 places a number of obligations on to the directors of a company. Some of the requirements include a duty on directors to promote the success of the company and a duty to exercise independent judgement etc.

Northern and TPE are not the same company - yet, and it is still unclear whether that situation will ever change under the GBR world view. The latest gossip seems to be a return to something akin to sectorisation - so consolidation of companies into operating sector businesses.

Howardh · 8 May 2025

yorkie said:
I expect the cheaper fares will disappear in due course. Anyone who wants them should grab them while they can; people in high up places do read this forum, so suggestions to abolish cheaper fares do sometimes get listened to!

Could argue that the TPE is slightly more expensive but you get a day-time trolley service and the option to reserve a seat; so increasing the Northern fare would be unjust as you get neither!

Mcr Warrior · 8 May 2025

yorkie said:
Yes, Leeds to Manchester Stns is valid via Piccadilly to Victoria, if that's what you are asking.

To be fair, would be difficult to do that (i.e. travel to/via Piccadilly) on a route "Northern only" Leeds to Manchester Stns ticket, setting off from Leeds. Can still get there by interchanging at Salford Crescent, but it's a bit of a faff.

Howardh · 8 May 2025

Mcr Warrior said:
To be fair, would be difficult to do that (i.e. travel to/via Piccadilly) on a route "Northern only" Leeds to Manchester Stns ticket, setting off from Leeds. Can still get there by interchanging at Salford Crescent, but it's a bit of a faff.

Yes, the only other way is "direct" using TPE; is Salford Crescent part of "Manchester Stations"? Thinking Manchester Airport to Crescent on a Northern, then Northern from there towards Halifax/Leeds/Bradford should/would be a legitimate route as there's no other way by Northern as they don't use the curve? It's the route I'd choose rather than crossing Manchester with suitcases if a TPE (Airport to Victoria) wasn't available (late or cancelled).

Haywain · 8 May 2025

yorkie said:
I expect the cheaper fares will disappear in due course.

I'm not so sure - I think there is a fair chance that they will persist as route specific tickets, rather than TOC specific.

yorkie · 8 May 2025

Haywain said:
I'm not so sure - I think there is a fair chance that they will persist as route specific tickets, rather than TOC specific.

Howardh said:
Could argue that the TPE is slightly more expensive but you get a day-time trolley service and the option to reserve a seat; so increasing the Northern fare would be unjust as you get neither!

It makes sense to have 'route via Hebden Bridge' tickets at a lower price, absolutely.

However, I believe the concern is that there are some incredibly cheap Northern Advance fares, which are designed to entice people away from TPE, which are available on short formed services that are extremely busy, and I can't see that lasting in the longer term.

MatthewHutton · 8 May 2025

It sounds to me like the Calder Valley trains should be lengthened

yorkie · 8 May 2025

MatthewHutton said:
It sounds to me like the Calder Valley trains should be lengthened

Yes, they should, but that would be for the Speculative Discussion forum

Whisky Papa · 8 May 2025

yorkie said:
It makes sense to have 'route via Hebden Bridge' tickets at a lower price, absolutely.

However, I believe the concern is that there are some incredibly cheap Northern Advance fares, which are designed to entice people away from TPE, which are available on short formed services that are extremely busy, and I can't see that lasting in the longer term.

Northern Advance fares on the Calder Valley have always irked me, especially back when I had to sell them or sort out issues with them. The fact that they could be even bought on peak (farewise) trains and undercut weekly season prices seemed farcical.

One odd thing with 'route via Hebden Bridge' tickets - I recall them showing up in the ticketing system when TPE trains were on diversion via the Calder Valley, something which is obviously occurring a lot at the moment.

Watershed · 8 May 2025

Tazi Hupefi said:
Sections 172-177 of the Companies Act 2006 places a number of obligations on to the directors of a company. Some of the requirements include a duty on directors to promote the success of the company and a duty to exercise independent judgement etc.

Northern and TPE are not the same company - yet, and it is still unclear whether that situation will ever change under the GBR world view. The latest gossip seems to be a return to something akin to sectorisation - so consolidation of companies into operating sector businesses.

Funnily enough the same sections don't seem to have prevented the mutual ticket acceptance in the event of disruption which has been agreed between Northern, TPE and LNER - despite this reducing revenue for the unaffected TOC(s).

These sections are often wheeled out as a justification for almost anything a company has chosen to do. In practice they are almost meaningless due to the amount of discretion Courts give directors - a decision would have to rise to the Wednesbury unreasonableness standard to be actionable.

yorksrob · 8 May 2025

I think a lot of it boils down to TPE not having cheap day returns for this route, so to have a day trip offer one has to go to the Northern only products.

I think the best simplification would be to recreate having off-peak on all routes along with cheap day returns on all length appropriate routes - which is more or less what there was before TOC's started messing around with things.

yorkie · 8 May 2025

Whisky Papa said:
One odd thing with 'route via Hebden Bridge' tickets - I recall them showing up in the ticketing system when TPE trains were on diversion via the Calder Valley, something which is obviously occurring a lot at the moment.

Yes, providing the train goes via Hebden Bridge, they are valid on TPE

The same happens with LNER each Autumn on "Route: Carlisle" tickets, it has happened on the IC West Coast franchise under Virgin Trains on "Route: High Wycombe" tickets, and many more examples.

yorksrob said:
I think a lot of it boils down to TPE not having cheap day returns for this route, so to have a day trip offer one has to go to the Northern only products.

Yes, TPE bumping up their fares, along with Northern reducing theirs, has all combined to create some big discrepancies in some areas.

yorksrob said:
I think the best simplification would be to recreate having off-peak on all routes along with cheap day returns on all length appropriate routes - which is more or less what there was before TOC's started messing around with things.

The DfT appears to have a policy that the lowest priced fares are the ones that will go; cheaper fares that have been abolished won't be reinstated, and the more expensive fares are the ones that will prevail. This policy is currently being trialled on LNER between London and Newcastle/Edinburgh (and associated flows).

I agree that TOCs messing around with things has caused price rises, and that the anomalies are not the cheaper fares, but the more expensive fares, however the DfT takes a very different view to us, and sees the higher priced fares as the fare that people should be paying. Anyone who can't afford the higher priced fares needs to switch to the roads, or simply stay at home, in the DfT's opinion.

yorksrob · 8 May 2025

yorkie said:
The DfT appears to have a policy that the lowest priced fares are the ones that will go; cheaper fares that have been abolished won't be reinstated, and the more expensive fares are the ones that will prevail. This policy is currently being trialled on LNER between London and Newcastle/Edinburgh (and associated flows).

I agree that TOCs messing around with things has caused price rises, and that the anomalies are not the cheaper fares, but the more expensive fares, however the DfT takes a very different view to us, and sees the higher priced fares as the fare that people should be paying. Anyone who can't afford the higher priced fares needs to switch to the roads, or simply stay at home, in the DfT's opinion.

Indeed. We need a Government to give them a more sensible policy steer, however that seems unlikely to happen at the moment.

johntea · 9 May 2025

There is also some weird pricing going on outside Leeds

e.g. Castleford to Manchester is a pretty stable £14 - £15 advance on the new 'direct' TPE service but Northern are throwing out advances for £8 (but no such luck should you live 5 minutes up the road in Normanton!)

The other day I even saw a £6 Northern Manchester to Castleford advance!

yorksrob · 9 May 2025

johntea said:
There is also some weird pricing going on outside Leeds

e.g. Castleford to Manchester is a pretty stable £14 - £15 advance on the new 'direct' TPE service but Northern are throwing out advances for £8 (but no such luck should you live 5 minutes up the road in Normanton!)

The other day I even saw a £6 Northern Manchester to Castleford advance!

£15 advance ? Better off getting a return anyway.

TUC · 9 May 2025

Yet again, I am left wondering why some rail enthusiasts have an issue with passengers having the option of cheaper prices, either from slower routes or from competition. Why do they want people to have to pay more? Do they really think that is what the public wants?

amahy · 9 May 2025

TUC said:
Yet again, I am left wondering why some rail enthusiasts have an issue with passengers having the option of cheaper prices, either from slower routes or from competition. Why do they want people to have to pay more? Do they really think that is what the public wants?

I made this thread because I’ve lived on the Calder Valley for 15 years, and am sick and tired of people travelling between Manchester and Leeds taking up seats of local passengers, when those people have a much better, faster alternative of 4tph travelling via Huddersfield, yet people living on the Calder Valley have no other option, other than using an alternative method of transport, which is not good for the railways.

Going slightly off topic, I am also annoyed that, while I believe the TRU is a great booster for the north of England, the Calder Valley is seeing all the disruption from the diversions, and none of the benefits, as people will continue to travel from Manchester to Leeds via the Calder Valley if fares stay as they are.

Bletchleyite · 9 May 2025

TUC said:
Yet again, I am left wondering why some rail enthusiasts have an issue with passengers having the option of cheaper prices, either from slower routes or from competition. Why do they want people to have to pay more? Do they really think that is what the public wants?

The public overridingly wants a less confusing fare system. These fares are confusing, and mostly for a tiny saving.

It's enthusiasts and MoneySavingExpert types that want them. These people know enough to benefit from complexity.

TUC · 9 May 2025

Bletchleyite said:
The public overridingly wants a less confusing fare system. These fares are confusing, and mostly for a tiny saving.

It's enthusiasts and MoneySavingExpert types that want them. These people know enough to benefit from complexity.

Plenty of the public use ticket-retailing apps and websites and are well used to looking for the best deal, just as with buying any other product. Money Saving Expert is a site used by millions of people.

The notion that people are willing to pay more for 'simplicity' is very much an affluent middle class concept.

Watershed · 9 May 2025

Bletchleyite said:
The public overridingly wants a less confusing fare system. These fares are confusing, and mostly for a tiny saving.

"Via Hebden Bridge" fares are hardly confusing. The saving is also far from tiny; for example, from Manchester to Huddersfield you're looking at £21.80 for a "via Hebden Bridge" Anytime Day Return vs £27.40 for an "Any Permitted" Anytime Short Distance Return (there's no Anytime Day Return, of course...).

Bletchleyite said:
It's enthusiasts and MoneySavingExpert types that want them. These people know enough to benefit from complexity.

No, it's people who want to pay a reasonable fare.

yorksrob · 9 May 2025

amahy said:
I made this thread because I’ve lived on the Calder Valley for 15 years, and am sick and tired of people travelling between Manchester and Leeds taking up seats of local passengers, when those people have a much better, faster alternative of 4tph travelling via Huddersfield, yet people living on the Calder Valley have no other option, other than using an alternative method of transport, which is not good for the railways.

Going slightly off topic, I am also annoyed that, while I believe the TRU is a great booster for the north of England, the Calder Valley is seeing all the disruption from the diversions, and none of the benefits, as people will continue to travel from Manchester to Leeds via the Calder Valley if fares stay as they are.

You're quite right to be annoyed.

There ought to be a cheap day return between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield.

That would alleviate a lot of Calder valley issues.

TUC · 9 May 2025

yorksrob said:
You're quite right to be annoyed.

There ought to be a cheap day return between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield.

That would alleviate a lot of Calder valley issues.

Most of the Calder Valley overcrowding is on the Hebden Bridge-Leeds section, not because of through passengers from Manchester.

Manchester to Leeds Northern vs TPE fares

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