deltic
Established Member
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Totally agree, given we are slowly moving to GBR why are we perpetuating single TOC maps. Not a good omen for future rail integration.
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New Northern map
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jack31439
Member
One question just from looking at that map, how often if ever are units cycled from the Newcastle/Middlesbrough region down to York/Leeds and the rest of the network. As it shows, the only route via service trains is up around Carlisle, which would presumably be a right pain, are there any ECS paths Heaton - Neville Hill? Or are the sprinters in the Middlesbrough area pretty much there for months and months on end?
Well aware that the ECML is at peak capacity in that area, seems a shame you cant quite complete that full Northern-only loop!
Well aware that the ECML is at peak capacity in that area, seems a shame you cant quite complete that full Northern-only loop!
YorksLad12
Established Member
I'm calling it version 1.0 - with a map this size there are inevitably issues. I didn't twig that services started from / terminated at Knaresborough still, for example.
It does. That bottom dot is covering services from Bradford to Skipton, Ilkley, Leeds and from Leeds to Skipton. It's doing a lot of work, admittedly...
I think that's Northern's service to Stalybridge; then TPE through Huddersfield to Wakefield and York. All of the other Northern services duplicate Northern services, don't they?
Because it then follows a Northern route, I guess (though it does that between Bradford and Halifax as well). There should be lines coming off at Pontefract and Knottingley to Doncaster though. And the missing dot for Low Moor
This is where including other operators more clearly would have helped simply matters!
darloscott
Member
T
There is a swap of 158s every night between Yorkshire and NE running empty between York-Heaton & return
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Showing Barrow-in-Furness as having only terminating trains is not really accurate, since a fair few trains run right through from Lancaster through to the Cumbrian Coast and Carlisle.
Cross City
Member
1. Because it's a diagram not a map and is not meant to be 100% geographically accurate.
2. Because it would otherwise be impossible to portray the Leeds-Lincoln route in keeping with the theme of the design.
Greetlander
Member
Halifax ends up looking pretty central to the whole show, therefore I approve.
Howardh
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I think it's nice, and the same issue r/e colour blindness applies to the tube and most other colour maps too?? It would be helpful, but would probably complicate/clutter things, if they could show Ranger/Rover zones maybe in dark shades underneath. Maybe if it became "interactive" you could cluck on a button and all the zonal tickets are highlighted?
It's quite easy to spot minor errors for places that you know well (eg it implies that all Cumbria Coast services terminate in Barrow, but 5 southbound and 4 northbound continue to Lancaster/Preston; it doesn't show the direct services between Darlington and Whitby, or between Saltburn and Newcastle via Durham, and I'm sure there's many more for places I'm not familiar with), but overall this does a good job of illustrating a complex network.
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Edit, I'd have included a depiction of the Metro line to Newcastle Airport as well. That feels like an important connection.
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Edit, I'd have included a depiction of the Metro line to Newcastle Airport as well. That feels like an important connection.
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SuspectUsual
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My only criticism is the key. We're all used to maps like the tube, where they key shows each separately coloured line, whereas this one just picks one colour arbitrarily as an example, which might be confusing. The problem of course is that there are probably too many lines and colours to show each on the key.....
ScottGallagher
Member
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Why is there a break at Barrow when through services obviously exist from Lancaster to Carlisle? This implies nothing goes past Barrow from the south!
Edit, just noticed a.few have said the same thing!
Edit, just noticed a.few have said the same thing!
I really like this map and approve of giving each service group its own colour, however I would make some changes:
- Use a variation of colours for each service to Manchester Airport, rather than all shades of blue
- Use wider lines for service groups with more than 1tph, splitting into narrower lines where the frequency drops
- Combine Southport - Stalybridge and Southport - Oxford Road into a single line
- Use colour and white striped lines (like DLR, Overground, Elizabeth Line etc) for non-Northern TOC operated services
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
That feels like a thing for a different map, likewise the below
There is quite a difference in stopping patterns between the Stalybridge and Oxford Road Southports (look at the map), and with no "limited service" indicator apart for one special for peak time, I think keeping the specific services seperate is better
I agree, although I suspect it's harder for Northern than it would be for Southern or GWR because of how many cases of multiple tph are formed of different routes rather than exact duplicates.
I think it's just
- Newcastle to Ashington (except Manors)
- Saltburn to Darlington (but with 1tph continuing to Bishop Auckland)
- Liverpool to Wigan
- Manchester Airport to Blackpool North
- Manchester to Hadfield
- Manchester to Hazel Grove (but with 1tph continuing to Buxton)
- Manchester to Alderley Edge (but with 1tph continuing to Crewe)
- Leeds to Bradford Forster Square / Ilkley / via Harrogate to York
Another thing I’d point out is that reversals (like Bradford Interchange, Lancaster etc) are shown, but this isn’t necessary on a schematic map. It can actually be more confusing since map users might mistake them as separate services, even if they each have their own unique colour.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Not all reversals are shown (e.g. Manchester Airport, Sheffield)
I think Bradford makes sense to show (since it allows Interchange and Forster Sq to be closer together), and Lancaster is a terminus quite a bit of the time (And also would be quite difficult to show as a through service).
Also just realised it's not showing the Rochdale-Blackburn/Clitheroe and Southport-Stalybridge stopping at Salford Central!
Probably because they're not officially/ legally closed
consettman
Member
Are there really no Northern services using the Ordsall chord any more? (or any other TOC's services for that matter?)
Just 1tph from Transpennine Express.
The name "North Yorkshire Moors" is wrong for the geographic feature and the National Park covering it, as they are the "North York Moors" - North York Moors National Park Authority https://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/
The preserved railway between Pickering and Whitby is called the "North Yorkshire Moors Railway" and that is correctly shown on the map.
The preserved railway between Pickering and Whitby is called the "North Yorkshire Moors Railway" and that is correctly shown on the map.
Rover
Member
I'm colour blind - for me it's not much of a problem when the colours are next to each other because they are different shades, you can tell one shade from another, you don't need to know what the colour is. The problem comes with identifying the colours, I could not tell you what all those colours were - reds and browns I've no chance, they look the same to me.
This is a significant improvement on the old map. I agree with the suggestion that TPE is poorly represented - especially between Leeds and Manchester - and should probably be included at least as a "frequent service from another operator" as a separate line.
DelW
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I'm glad that TOCs are still making the effort to produce maps like this, rather than simply pushing everyone into using online journey planners.
Those planners are okay if you need to go from point A to point B. But if I'm staying at point A, and want a day out by train, I might look at going via B to C, then back via D and E. Maps like this show which options are easiest, in terms of connections, without having to look up numerous journeys or timetables.
As one who's unfamiliar with Northern's services, it also makes it much easier for me to understand their structure. My main suggestion for improvement would be to name the operators of the other services alongside the line on the map. But overall it's a useful guide I think.
Those planners are okay if you need to go from point A to point B. But if I'm staying at point A, and want a day out by train, I might look at going via B to C, then back via D and E. Maps like this show which options are easiest, in terms of connections, without having to look up numerous journeys or timetables.
As one who's unfamiliar with Northern's services, it also makes it much easier for me to understand their structure. My main suggestion for improvement would be to name the operators of the other services alongside the line on the map. But overall it's a useful guide I think.
YorksLad12
Established Member
As an amateur designer, that's good to know about reds and browns. Some of the blues seem quite fractional in their difference too.
The TPE-only routes should be in the double lining used for East Coast and West Coast services, I'd suggest. That would also help differentiate TPE and GC services between Mirfield and York/Doncaster (the latter not being shown).
Apparently (LinkedIn post), this map doesn't replace any other maps - the existing ones will all still be available.
Agreed, this is exactly what I mean.
RikGarner
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- 18 Apr 2018
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It's a little misleading to say Piccadilly to Victoria is a nine minute connection. The journey may take nine, but you could have to wait twelve minutes for the next service.