Future of the 350/2s

The Ham · 27 Jun 2025

Brubulus said:
If ScotRail were to take the 350s, they should leave them as 4 car sets, given that there are some routes which only need 4 cars. They could probably get away with a net loss in units, by shortforming services and occasionally running EMU services with the battery fleet. Glasgow suburban services are heavily subsided and a loss in units will help reduce the subsidy.

Trainbike46 said:
Given ScotRail currently has some DMUs substituting for EMUs, I doubt they can lose many if any EMUs at all.

How many DMU's are substituting for EMU's?

The reason for asking is that it used to be that a DMU coaches had a £110,000 lease costs whilst EMU's cost £100,000 to lease.

Therefore if there's many DMU's (just on the saving from leasing them) then you could still see a saving even if there's an increase in the number of coaches being used..

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tfw756rider · 28 Jun 2025

SolomonSouth said:
I suppose that’s the only way. There are still a few 360s in storage, but I don’t think their coaches would work in a 350 formation.

I don't think there are any 360s in storage. All 21 360/1s are with East Midlands Railway, 3 of the 360/2s are with the Global Centre for Rail Excellence (GCRE), and the other 2 360/2s were scrapped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2025 ==

Nym said:
Would these be the 360s that would require TPWS fitting to be of any use by any chance?

They're unlikely to ever turn a wheel again in anger.

3 of them are with the GCRE and the other 2 were scrapped (see above).

Kite159 · 28 Jun 2025

tfw756rider said:
I don't think there are any 360s in storage. All 21 360/1s are with East Midlands Railway, 3 of the 360/2s are with the Global Centre for Rail Excellence (GCRE), and the other 2 360/2s were scrapped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2025 ==

3 of them are with the GCRE and the other 2 were scrapped (see above).

The 3x 360/2s are effectively in storage, just under the ownership in relation to that unbuilt test track. Chances are by the time that test track is built the 360/2s won't be around to run on it

Class15 · 28 Jun 2025

Kite159 said:
Chances are by the time that test track is built the 360/2s won't be around to run on it

This confused me. The 360/2s are owned by GCRE I thought?

D365 · 28 Jun 2025

Class15 said:
This confused me. The 360/2s are owned by GCRE I thought?

That doesn’t mean that GRCE is storing them securely or maintaining them at all.

Nym · 28 Jun 2025

D365 said:
That doesn’t mean that GRCE is storing them securely or maintaining them at all.

Given the GCRE is currently still a field with some rails in it (with a sprinkling of shiny things to get government and VC money) I'm inclined to agree.

D365 · 28 Jun 2025

Nym said:
Given the GCRE is currently still a field with some rails in it (with a sprinkling of shiny things to get government and VC money) I'm inclined to agree.

I wonder what became of the guided tours that GCRE was offering at RSN 2024...

Nym · 29 Jun 2025

D365 said:
I wonder what became of the guided tours that GCRE was offering at RSN 2024...

Been so long since I've been to an RSN so I'd struggle to know...

Latest news relates to that F&F installation that I strongly suspect was not funded by GCRE but was only facilitated by them.

Anyway, too off topic now.

350/2s, they'll fall into the moneypit of ROSCO gambling that went on in the latest tranches of stock contracts?

EDIT: F&F = Furrer+Frey AG

Trainbike46 · 29 Jun 2025

The Ham said:
How many DMU's are substituting for EMU's?

The reason for asking is that it used to be that a DMU coaches had a £110,000 lease costs whilst EMU's cost £100,000 to lease.

Therefore if there's many DMU's (just on the saving from leasing them) then you could still see a saving even if there's an increase in the number of coaches being used..

It's not a massive number, I think it is around 1 or 2 diagrams on the East Kilbride service, which was previously fully served with diesel before the recent electrification. The reason is that they can't free up quite enough EMUs to replace all diagrams yet. If you want exact numbers, some of the posters from Scotland will likely know the details in the East Kilbride thread?

My point was just that this shows that there really isn't space to reduce the number of electric units on the Scotrail network.

SC318250 · 29 Jun 2025

Trainbike46 said:
It's not a massive number, I think it is around 1 or 2 diagrams on the East Kilbride service, which was previously fully served with diesel before the recent electrification. The reason is that they can't free up quite enough EMUs to replace all diagrams yet. If you want exact numbers, some of the posters from Scotland will likely know the details in the East Kilbride thread?

My point was just that this shows that there really isn't space to reduce the number of electric units on the Scotrail network.

I dont think it is so much cost. It will be capacity at Glasgow Central High Level. Majority of East Kilbride services need 6 cars.

What might have worked if cerain diagrams on North Clyde could operate 4 coaches only then several 334 units could be freed up to release Class 318/320 units to release Class 380/385 units on Lanark/Inverclyde and Cathcart services

Southsider · 29 Jun 2025

Trainbike46 said:
It's not a massive number, I think it is around 1 or 2 diagrams on the East Kilbride service, which was previously fully served with diesel before the recent electrification. The reason is that they can't free up quite enough EMUs to replace all diagrams yet. If you want exact numbers, some of the posters from Scotland will likely know the details in the East Kilbride thread?

My point was just that this shows that there really isn't space to reduce the number of electric units on the Scotrail network.

East Kilbride is still entirely diesel, won’t be diesel/electric until December.

SC318250 · 29 Jun 2025

I think East Kilbride services off peak is 12 units, 2x6 cars, and 3x4 cars

Off peak is 3x4 cars

So potentially 4 x 380/0 and 2 x 3801/1 would be required for fully electric service. So 6 x 350/2 plus a spare…
Potentially 4 on Milngavie to Springburn and 2 on Whifflet services could work as majority of these are 3 car operated
Maybe those in know would be able to say whether this would cause an issue at Milngavie with train lengths?

Brubulus · 29 Jun 2025

Even if the 350/2s can't replace all of ScotRail's 318s/320s they can at least enable only a small order for 15 or so 3 car 385s. The amount that ScotRail spends on service provision in Glasgow needs to fall, that will require a reduction in the overall number of carriages by replacing 6 car services with 4 car ones, and reducing the number of peak extras by moving from 6 car to 8 car trains where possible.

D365 · 29 Jun 2025

Brubulus said:
Even if the 350/2s can't replace all of ScotRail's 318s/320s they can at least enable only a small order for 15 or so 3 car 385s. The amount that ScotRail spends on service provision in Glasgow needs to fall, that will require a reduction in the overall number of carriages by replacing 6 car services with 4 car ones, and reducing the number of peak extras by moving from 6 car to 8 car trains where possible.

Similarly to Northern, ScotRail is intending on a significant train order. Bi-mode and multi-mode units to replace their remaining ex-British Rail DMUs/EMUs and, eventually, the Class 334s.

Kite159 · 29 Jun 2025

Brubulus said:
Even if the 350/2s can't replace all of ScotRail's 318s/320s they can at least enable only a small order for 15 or so 3 car 385s. The amount that ScotRail spends on service provision in Glasgow needs to fall, that will require a reduction in the overall number of carriages by replacing 6 car services with 4 car ones, and reducing the number of peak extras by moving from 6 car to 8 car trains where possible.

What a bright idea, reducing train lengths from 6 coaches to 4 coaches...

Do you work for Merseyrail by any chance?

Brubulus · 29 Jun 2025

Kite159 said:
What a bright idea, reducing train lengths from 6 coaches to 4 coaches...

Do you work for Merseyrail by any chance?

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/3644/download?inline

Here's a report of the subsidy levels by route from another thread, this shows that a number of Glasgow suburban routes cost substantially more to run that they receive in fare revenue. Costs must be cut in this case, and the best way to do that is the strategic use of 4 and 8 car trains to replace 6 car trains and peak extras.

Peter0124 · 29 Jun 2025

Brubulus said:
https://www.scotrail.co.uk/media/3644/download?inline
Here's a report of the subsidy levels by route from another thread, this shows that a number of Glasgow suburban routes cost substantially more to run that they receive in fare revenue. Costs must be cut in this case, and the best way to do that is the strategic use of 4 and 8 car trains to replace 6 car trains and peak extras.

8 car services won't fit into most platforms unless its the Ayrshire Coast

Zomboid · 29 Jun 2025

Brubulus said:
Costs must be cut in this case, a

Why?

Yes, it needs subsidy, but it's a political choice by the funders (the Scottish government in this case, I assume) to do that. There is no fundamental imperative to reduce subsidy to the Glasgow suburban network if the government believes that the subsidy makes the city run smoothly and is therefore money well spent providing a public service.

Peter Mugridge · 29 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
Yes, it needs subsidy, but it's a political choice by the funders (the Scottish government in this case, I assume) to do that. There is no fundamental imperative to reduce subsidy to the Glasgow suburban network if the government believes that the subsidy makes the city run smoothly and is therefore money well spent providing a public service.

I agree, and it's almost certainly a lot cheaper than jamming ever more people onto the roads causing more road repairs to be needed, more congestion losing people valuable time, creating a poorer environment for the public in the street...

A public transport subsidy is in fact an investment in the future.

Brubulus · 29 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
Why?

Yes, it needs subsidy, but it's a political choice by the funders (the Scottish government in this case, I assume) to do that. There is no fundamental imperative to reduce subsidy to the Glasgow suburban network if the government believes that the subsidy makes the city run smoothly and is therefore money well spent providing a public service.

On Inverclyde and South electrics services, weekday seat utilisation was well under 50% in 2019/20, so likely to be even lower now. Moving towards slightly shorter trains and less peak extras on journeys such as this, where the average fare paid is under £4 is entirely reasonable, all necessary actions must be taken given the financial state of the country.

Average journey distance in South Electrics is just 4 miles, and average revenue per journey was just £1.31 in 2019/20. Standing is acceptable for such short distances and at such low cost. Potentially a seat could be removed from each row to ensure sufficient standing capacity.

I'm not suggesting there should be another Beeching, with every route in Scotland accept the ECML, WCML and Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High shut.

tfw756rider · 30 Jun 2025

Brubulus said:
Even if the 350/2s can't replace all of ScotRail's 318s/320s they can at least enable only a small order for 15 or so 3 car 385s. The amount that ScotRail spends on service provision in Glasgow needs to fall, that will require a reduction in the overall number of carriages by replacing 6 car services with 4 car ones, and reducing the number of peak extras by moving from 6 car to 8 car trains where possible.

There'd be enough 350/2s to replace all of the 318s but only some of the 320s in addition to that (with the rest of the 320s only needing to be replaced by a new order of only ~15 AT200s/384s/385s/386s/whatever, as you say).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2025 ==

D365 said:
Similarly to Northern, ScotRail is intending on a significant train order. Bi-mode and multi-mode units to replace their remaining ex-British Rail DMUs/EMUs and, eventually, the Class 334s.

In that case, where did you find this out? Do you know where I can read more about it? Have quantities of units been decided? Have they provided an estimated date of when they're likely to have a shortlist of manufacturers? Have they provided an estimated date of when they hope to award the contract? Could 350s not help out in the meantime? Now with more question marks?

daodao · 30 Jun 2025

This thread has now reached over 500 entries, but no obvious role has yet been found for these units. They are relatively high speed trains designed for longer regional services rather than short urban journeys with frequent stops. They perform well on the Liverpool to Birmingham run.

I still feel that their best future use would be to displace Voyagers from the equivalent Manchester to Birmingham services, with 2tph using 8 coach trains. It would reduce diesel "running under the wires" and release the Voyagers for use elsewhere on non-electrified sectors of the XC network. While I accept that this would need significant revision of train timetables via Birmingham New Street, IMO the pain of doing this would be worth the gain.

SolomonSouth · 30 Jun 2025

daodao said:
This thread has now reached over 500 entries, but no obvious role has yet been found for these units. They are relatively high speed trains designed for longer regional services rather than short urban journeys with frequent stops. They perform well on the Liverpool to Birmingham run.

I still feel that their best future use would be to displace Voyagers from the equivalent Manchester to Birmingham services, with 2tph using 8 coach trains. It would reduce diesel "running under the wires" and release the Voyagers for use elsewhere on non-electrified sectors of the XC network. While I accept that this would need significant revision of train timetables via Birmingham New Street, IMO the pain of doing this would be worth the gain.

No role will be found, I don't think.

Replacing Voyagers with 350s would be getting rid of diesel trains under the wires on one hand, yes. On the other hand, you are also replacing 125mph trains with 110mph trains, and the interior comfort of a 350/2 is far less than that of a Voyager, so they would need interior modifications at minimum if they were to replace Voyagers.

ScotRail is not an option - they normally use 3/6 car trains, so the platforms are designed around this. An 8 car 350 would almost never fit in a Scotrail platform so services would be 4 car max. 4 down from 6 car is not good.

I saw a bit of talk at one point of fitting 350/2s with shoes and giving them to SWR, but:
1) We don't know if it's possible, or practical, to fit them with shoes in the first place,
2) As far as I'm aware they are not compatible electronically with 444/450 and would have to be diagrammed separately which would be a pain.

I saw a few users saying they could go to EMR to run alongside 360s. This seems like a decent proposal on the surface, but I have no idea if EMR have enough depot space, and again we face compatibility issues. As far as I'm aware 350s cannot work with 360s. Also, more 2+3 would be the last thing EMR want.

So they seem likely to end up stored for years and eventually scrapped.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but as far as I'm aware, 350s do not have selective door opening, which is a major thing going against them and really limits the number of routes they can run on. That, and the 2+3 interior is not ideal either.

pokemonsuper9 · 30 Jun 2025

SolomonSouth said:
On the other hand, you are also replacing 125mph trains with 110mph trains,

Are XC's Voyagers even able to get above 110mph much, isn't the only area of higher speed between Wolverhampton and Stafford?

Zomboid · 30 Jun 2025

pokemonsuper9 said:
Are XC's Voyagers even able to get above 110mph much, isn't the only area of higher speed between Wolverhampton and Stafford?

Birmingham to Derby and the top of the ECML are also 125mph.

Didcot to Reading if pathed on the fast lines, but that's not very far.

WideRanger · 30 Jun 2025

Not intending this to sound like a loaded question: how hard/expensive would it be to replace 2+3 seating with reasonably comfortable 2+2 seating?

Brubulus · 30 Jun 2025

SolomonSouth said:
No role will be found, I don't think.

Replacing Voyagers with 350s would be getting rid of diesel trains under the wires on one hand, yes. On the other hand, you are also replacing 125mph trains with 110mph trains, and the interior comfort of a 350/2 is far less than that of a Voyager, so they would need interior modifications at minimum if they were to replace Voyagers.

ScotRail is not an option - they normally use 3/6 car trains, so the platforms are designed around this. An 8 car 350 would almost never fit in a Scotrail platform so services would be 4 car max. 4 down from 6 car is not good.

I saw a bit of talk at one point of fitting 350/2s with shoes and giving them to SWR, but:
1) We don't know if it's possible, or practical, to fit them with shoes in the first place,
2) As far as I'm aware they are not compatible electronically with 444/450 and would have to be diagrammed separately which would be a pain.

I saw a few users saying they could go to EMR to run alongside 360s. This seems like a decent proposal on the surface, but I have no idea if EMR have enough depot space, and again we face compatibility issues. As far as I'm aware 350s cannot work with 360s. Also, more 2+3 would be the last thing EMR want.

So they seem likely to end up stored for years and eventually scrapped.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but as far as I'm aware, 350s do not have selective door opening, which is a major thing going against them and really limits the number of routes they can run on. That, and the 2+3 interior is not ideal either.

Northern is the most reasonable place for them to go, however they seem to want new trains in the long term to replace 323s instead of just using 350/2s. Scotrail is also a reasonable place, but it would likely require SDO fitment, however this has been done for other Desiros.

sprinterguy · 30 Jun 2025

pokemonsuper9 said:
Are XC's Voyagers even able to get above 110mph much, isn't the only area of higher speed between Wolverhampton and Stafford?

And a 5 mile stretch of 115mph (MU limit) on the Down between Congleton and Macclesfield, though I recognise that's fairly marginal.

Nym · 30 Jun 2025

WideRanger said:
Not intending this to sound like a loaded question: how hard/expensive would it be to replace 2+3 seating with reasonably comfortable 2+2 seating?

Depends on who is specifying it.
It can be a relatively trivial task, until people come in and try and make it fancy rather than just “fit these seats.”

Failed Unit · 30 Jun 2025

How close are they to the 700 / 717 mechanically. I know the cabs are totally different. Would they be suitable for Great Northern to send the rest of the 387s south? (After reseating of course to 2+2 seating) Don’t get me wrong I would prefer the status quo and keep the 387s, however as passenger numbers grow and the desire to kill of the Networkers, having dual voltage trains on AC routes when we have AC units rusting away isn’t for the greater good.

Future of the 350/2s

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