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The Labour Party under Keir Starmer

jfollows

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From 1988 to 1994, anyone who spoke on behalf of Sinn Fein couldn't be broadcast, whatever they wanted to say.
Good point, I’d forgotten that, it was nonsense and it died under the weight of its own stupidity, but I remember Gerry Adams being unable to speak in person.

My feeling is that words undoubtedly have power, but politicians banning them or otherwise making them illegal gives them more legitimacy than they ought to have. Most people are sensible and ignore nonsense. Politicians don’t.
 
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AlterEgo

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Good point, I’d forgotten that, it was nonsense and it died under the weight of its own stupidity, but I remember Gerry Adams being unable to speak in person.
He was allowed to be broadcast, but his voice had to be dubbed to comply with the law, hence the Day Today satire.

Here, Adams is dubbed by what is hilariously called an "interpreter"
 

styles

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Good point, I’d forgotten that, it was nonsense and it died under the weight of its own stupidity, but I remember Gerry Adams being unable to speak in person.

My feeling is that words undoubtedly have power, but politicians banning them or otherwise making them illegal gives them more legitimacy than they ought to have. Most people are sensible and ignore nonsense. Politicians don’t.
I think there's a difference between trying to ban something, and simply not giving them a platform.

I don't agree with proscribing Palestine Action as a terrorist group, but I equally don't believe the BBC needs to broadcast their vocal supporters under their entertainment coverage. It's not like there's a shortage of things to cover as Glastonbury if they want 24 hour coverage; there's over 100 stages and event spaces.

If anything, they'd have been better off reporting it under their news coverage.

And while I do agree that we're wandering into thought policing in the UK at times, if you lead a very large crowd into a chant calling for the death of hundreds of thousands of people, it shouldn't be too surprising that people think you've crossed a line into enticing violence.
 

alex397

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I really don’t understand the controversy.

I don’t condone political violence in any form, but the ‘kill the IDF’ chant is understandable considering the geocidal war crimes the IDF are committing. I don’t agree with that chant, but can also certainly understand why people would like that chant.

Some are acting as if this Bob Vylan has said ‘kill the Israelis’ which is really not what he’s saying.

There’s clear anti-Semitism in some pro-Palestinian protestors, and I have complained about this on another forum (and got piled on for complaining about this), but anger against the IDF is certainly not the same as calling for violence against Israelis/Jews which some overdramatic people want to claim.

It does feel like freedom of expression is under attack to be honest.
 

Falcon1200

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Some are acting as if this Bob Vylan has said ‘kill the Israelis’ which is really not what he’s saying.

It could be argued that that is exactly what he is saying, because if there was no IDF there would be no Israel; Or at least, no Israel with any Jews alive in it.

What the IDF is doing in Gaza is wrong, and their conduct means there is no chance of peace in the region (if there ever was), but that doesn't make calling for even more death acceptable, and the BBC should be utterly ashamed of having broadcast such.
 

alex397

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It could be argued that that is exactly what he is saying, because if there was no IDF there would be no Israel; Or at least, no Israel with any Jews alive in it.

What the IDF is doing in Gaza is wrong, and their conduct means there is no chance of peace in the region (if there ever was), but that doesn't make calling for even more death acceptable, and the BBC should be utterly ashamed of having broadcast such.
Let’s compare it to WW2. Stopping the Nazis from their atrocities would surely not be considered xenophobia against German people? So why is it different with the IDF?
 

david1212

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I wonder how long Rachel Reeves has left as chancellor after the latest clusterduck? She seems to have totally boxed herself in with pre-election promises and fiscal rules that leave only highly contentious choices and inevitable uproar over their very un-Labour nature. ...

I would like less than two weeks as there is speculation that at the upcoming Mansion House speech on 15 July she will announce a lowering of the current £20,000 annual cap that savers are allowed to put in the cash part of the individual savings account wrapper.

Stocks & shares are all very well if you have money you can risk but not where I would put funds like the tax-free lump sum from a pension to cover a future major expense. AFAIK now you can relatively freely transfer ISA fund between cash and stocks & shares but logically restrictions will be introduced.
 

GusB

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It could be argued that that is exactly what he is saying, because if there was no IDF there would be no Israel; Or at least, no Israel with any Jews alive in it.

What the IDF is doing in Gaza is wrong, and their conduct means there is no chance of peace in the region (if there ever was), but that doesn't make calling for even more death acceptable
What was said is very much open to interpretation. If they'd gone on stage and shouted "death to ISIS", "death to Hamas" or "death to Hezbollah", I don't think we'd be having this discussion. Nobody in the mainstream media would have really batted an eyelid, other than to offer support to the people who made those remarks.

I see "death to the IDF" as a call to disarm and disband that organisation, rather than wishing harm upon individuals. You're welcome to interpret those words differently and you're as free to disagree with me as I am to disagree with you. Unfortunately, what's happening here is that the government is trying to remove that freedom from us by banning certain organisations and criminalising anyone who disagrees with the government's position. We're on a very slippery slope.
 

AlterEgo

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“Death to the IDF” means literal death, not “I hope they go away and are reformed like the RUC were in Northern Ireland”. It’s silly to pretend otherwise. The real issue is whether you can call for the death of soldiers - that is, legitimate military targets - who are engaged in murder and genocide, and whether that changes depending on whether the army doing the genocide is an “ally” of the UK or not.
 

102 fan

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Let’s compare it to WW2. Stopping the Nazis from their atrocities would surely not be considered xenophobia against German people? So why is it different with the IDF?
The thing is, in WWII people actually fought against the Nazis. They didn't just go to a concert, say the headline grabbing statements then go home. If these people were serious they would actually do something about it, not just say them at an overpriced concert.

Protests usually do nothing but make the participants feel better. Did the stop the war protests stop the war in Iraq? Has CND, in all the years it has been in existence ever managed to make a country disarm?
 

Mag_seven

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Can we get back to discussing Keir Starmer and the Labour Party please. Surely there is enough to discuss with tonight's vote:


"I've not had as much quality time with my colleagues since the Brexit wars," a minister told me with a wry smile.

A remark that gets to the heart of the row over changes to the benefits system within the Labour Party: this is a government with a big majority, that has already performed a big U-turn and yet is still involved in a big persuasion job.

Attempting to defuse a backbench rebellion is not something that's meant to happen, one year into government, with a working majority of 165.
 

brad465

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Sometimes I wonder if McSweeney has blackmail material on Starmer that's allowed the former to stay in the Downing Street Operation. If McSweeney is dismissed, how long before rather compromising photos of him appear all over the front pages?
 

Jantra

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Anyone know why 'Rachel from Accounts' was sobbing all the way through PMQs.
If Keir Starmer was looking for a fresh start, then having your Chancellor blubbing after you shelve a money saving scheme is not going to help!
 

YorkshireBear

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Anyone know why 'Rachel from Accounts' was sobbing all the way through PMQs.
If Keir Starmer was looking for a fresh start, then having your Chancellor blubbing after you shelve a money saving scheme is not going to help!
Reported to be something personal that occured between her and the speaker.
 

Gloster

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A bit odd. Although several allies of hers seem to be claiming that it was due to an interaction with The Speaker, nobody actually saw it. If that is the reason, then she is ridiculously thin-skinned for a leading politician.

If it is something personal or the interaction with the Speaker was just the final straw when personal matters were going badly, then we really need to wait and see (if we’d ever do). I note that the SNP has replied with a bland and sympathetic comment, while Badenoch seems to have leapt in with the boot, which might be ill-advised if the reason is something that one can genuinely feel sympathy about.
 

brad465

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A bit odd. Although several allies of hers seem to be claiming that it was due to an interaction with The Speaker, nobody actually saw it. If that is the reason, then she is ridiculously thin-skinned for a leading politician.

If it is something personal or the interaction with the Speaker was just the final straw when personal matters were going badly, then we really need to wait and see (if we’d ever do). I note that the SNP has replied with a bland and sympathetic comment, while Badenoch seems to have leapt in with the boot, which might be ill-advised if the reason is something that one can genuinely feel sympathy about.
In my primary school infants' life, there was a time where someone in my class upset another classmate, and my act of laughing at their misfortune landed me in as much trouble as the one who did the initial upsetting. Badenoch's comments reminded me of this.

The wider incident also brought back memories of Theresa May's resignation speech, which ended with "...the country I love!" while clearly breaking down as she said it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Badenoch's comments were utterly un-Parliamentary in nature and I am surprised and quite disappointed (if not actually angry) that the Speaker did not call her out on them and ask that she either packs in making personal comments or leaves the Chamber.
 

styles

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I'm not one for saying politics should be all roses but it shouldn't really involve opposition party leaders mocking their opponents for what has already publicly been described as a personal matter.

It's going to look very bad on Badenoch if it turns out to be a serious family illness or something.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not one for saying politics should be all roses but it shouldn't really involve opposition party leaders mocking their opponents for what has already publicly been described as a personal matter.

It's going to look very bad on Badenoch if it turns out to be a serious family illness or something.

I think either way it was just a really horrible thing to say (even if she was upset by something relating to the vote) and exposes Badenoch as a nasty little bully unfit to even be in the House, let alone the Leader of the Opposition.

There is absolutely no need for anything to become personal in that way in the Commons; debate should stick to the issues, not the individuals, unless of course there are substantiated allegations of professional misconduct.
 

styles

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I think either way it was just a really horrible thing to say (even if she was upset by something relating to the vote) and exposes Badenoch as a nasty little bully unfit to even be in the House, let alone the Leader of the Opposition.

There is absolutely no need for anything to become personal in that way in the Commons; debate should stick to the issues, not the individuals, unless of course there are substantiated allegations of professional misconduct.
Badenoch's behaviour will appeal to a non-insignificant group of supporters mind. Those who think the Labour party is 'soft' or whatever. I suspect she said what she said knowing this.
 

Bletchleyite

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Badenoch's behaviour will appeal to a non-insignificant group of supporters mind. Those who think the Labour party is 'soft' or whatever. I suspect she said what she said knowing this.

I agree, but the Speaker should be insisting on professional standards and calling this sort of nastiness out.

It wasn't even said in a proper Parliamentary manner, e.g. "I wonder if I might enquire as to whether the Honourable Member is upset because her plans are not going well and whether she might be considering resignation?" - it was blunt, rude and downright inappropriate.
 

43096

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I agree, but the Speaker should be insisting on professional standards and calling this sort of nastiness out.

It wasn't even said in a proper Parliamentary manner, e.g. "I wonder if I might enquire as to whether the Honourable Member is upset because her plans are not going well and whether she might be considering resignation?" - it was blunt, rude and downright inappropriate.
I wouldn't expect anything else from Badenoch, to be honest. Vile person.
 

Darandio

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This is the bit that wound me up.

Following PMQs, Badenoch's spokesperson said a "personal matter doesn't really clear it up" as "you normally tell people what the personal matter is".

No, you generally don't broadcast to the world what your personal matter is.
 

Jantra

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And maybe it best not to turn up if your that upset, unless undue pressure was placed upon her!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Suspect she didn't want to sit beside Sir Kier, hence the reports of an argument between the two just prior to PMQs.
After all its not going to look too rosey if your Chancellor is missing the day after a major financial climb down.
I don't think it's the oppositions fault either.
 

Purple Train

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I think either way it was just a really horrible thing to say (even if she was upset by something relating to the vote) and exposes Badenoch as a nasty little bully unfit to even be in the House, let alone the Leader of the Opposition.

There is absolutely no need for anything to become personal in that way in the Commons; debate should stick to the issues, not the individuals, unless of course there are substantiated allegations of professional misconduct.
Indeed, and the usual Reform bores on the internet are being equally vitriolic. I'm not exactly impressed with her as Chancellor, but for goodness' sake be human. It's selfish bullies and cowards, like those who are mocking Reeves for this, who show what a total mess the country is in.
 

brad465

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I agree, but the Speaker should be insisting on professional standards and calling this sort of nastiness out.

It wasn't even said in a proper Parliamentary manner, e.g. "I wonder if I might enquire as to whether the Honourable Member is upset because her plans are not going well and whether she might be considering resignation?" - it was blunt, rude and downright inappropriate.
I think our outdated chamber setup exacerbated this incident (as well as making a whole host of other controversial moments more intense). Most parliaments around the world, including the devolved parliaments in Scotland and Wales, have semi-circle arrangements. Our two-sided parallel bench arrangement however makes it look more head-to-head and confrontational. I'm not suggesting today wouldn't have been bad had we had a better chamber arrangement, but the heat would have been much lower, and several other "confrontations" could have been/will be prevented.
 

Senex

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I think our outdated chamber setup exacerbated this incident (as well as making a whole host of other controversial moments more intense). Most parliaments around the world, including the devolved parliaments in Scotland and Wales, have semi-circle arrangements. Our two-sided parallel bench arrangement however makes it look more head-to-head and confrontational. I'm not suggesting today wouldn't have been bad had we had a better chamber arrangement, but the heat would have been much lower, and several other "confrontations" could have been/will be prevented.
For historic reasons the Westminster parliament—I was going to write "our" parliament, but I wonder how many of us feel any sense of ownership of the institution—is laid out for a form of court-room battle, in which one side's objective is simply to prove the other wrong. That encourages the same sort of bullying techniques we see and experience every day in our courts and as much controlled rudeness and offence as the Speaker will permit. It's an interesting question as to how far a different layout might make parliament more consultative and deliberative, but any move in that direction seems to be effectively ruled out for the future by MPs who want to restore the "Palace" of Westminster exactly as it is, even at the most outrageous cost.
 

martin butler

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I think Labour is dammed no matter what it does, there are those with in, who want a return to true socialist values, even if they are vote losers, and then, there is the very well-financed and connected right wing of politics, awash with shady money, who want to undermine Labour, and set us on the road to what's happening in the United States, civil unrest, and the call for a strong leader, and to gut protections, so that those they hate have no protections.

Starmer, is not the best person to be PM. I would rather see Andy Burnam return to mainstream politics, the Winter Fuel Allowance (WFA) was an ill-made move, but it was offset by other funding that was made available at local level, through council awards, but of course, no one mentioned that.

Should Starmer go? Not yet, because whoever replaces him will be under pressure to go to the public, that's what Reform and its backers want: Labour out, and for there to be a reform/ conservative / ERG coalition.

Imagine Truss on steroids, that's what you will get,
 
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