Not sure about that one. The British don't like to complain. Your post just sounds like an excuse for not striving for excellence.
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Is any TOC more hated by its customers than Southeastern?
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Not sure about that one. The British don't like to complain. Your post just sounds like an excuse for not striving for excellence.
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Schnellzug
Established Member
Here's the thing; the British may not like to complain directly to whoever they feel has given them poor service (if indeed that is true anymore, and isn't just one of those images of the Brits that people still have, like fog and warm beer), but they do like to whinge about it, and TwitBook and so on has opened up a whole new world of opportunity to do so, is what I reckon.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Absolutely agree. SE really need to embrace social media for their own sake.
Their current Twitter feed is infuriating.
Mr Chivers and Mr Phillips have successfully succeded in taking the "GREAT" out of the "Great Eastern Mainline".......
They are pure racketeers.......promises, spin, flim flam which have all turned out to be pure LIES!!!!!
Trains that are truely appalling.......we could start an entire new thread on the APPALLING state of the NXEA fleet.....
It will take YEARS to recover from these idiots!!!!!!!!!!!
Robinson
Member
Going back to this - if I may add my disagreement to this theory - the 3 operators I use most often are ScotRail, South West Trains and Virgin. I find all 3 of those operators to be truly excellent.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
From a passenger's prospective the train may be late because they alighted at an intermediate station and the train was 4 minutes behind schedule, yet from the operator's viewpoint the train arrived at it's destination on time so the service was on time for the purpose of calculating whether season ticket holders get a discount when they renew.
I have limited experience of Southeastern services but one Saturday lunchtime I caught a Greenwich to Cannon Street service, which a single 465 turned up for. Everyone fitted on and got a seat but almost every seat was occupied. I heard a few people complaining saying it should have been an 8 carriage service.
Hydro
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Mar 2007
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- 2,204
Yes they do, they just don't like to complain to whatever's causing the complaint.
Pax: *mutter*"This train is rammed, why isn't it an 8 coach service? Bloody railways, like this every day....I can't breathe, starting to feel dizzy, hold me whilst I write my last will and and testament"*mutter*
Staff: "Everything OK in here?"
Pax: *croak*Yes....fine....thank you...."*expires*
From my observations, it seems that there is a different level of satisfaction given towards Tocs depending on the purpose of the journey. Perhaps this is down to the ''grass is always greener'' syndrome. Irregular customers from Lancashire travelling on a half-empty South West Trains 450 on a £5.30 Off-peak Day Travelcard will probably think they are wonderful compared to someone who has just shelled out 3 grand for an annual season.
tbtc
Veteran Member
...this is something I kept trying to explain to people in the "WSMR are great, they have 99.9% customer satisfaction" threads - leisure passengers are more likely to be satisfied with their journey, partly because if they weren't they wouldn't be using the train. Plus there's a chance they got a "cheap" ticket.
However commuters, paying through the nose, forced to travel long distances to work (partly because London house prices are so high, whilst provincial wages are so low) are "forced" to use the trains (and stump up for season tickets that cost significant amounts).
TOCs with large commuter volumes will always find it harder to satisfy people - the TOC is getting blame for a number of things outside its control (like the fact that someone is doing three hours a day commuting and can't afford to live near where they work or to work near where they live).
Quite true.
It's also true that the London commuter and the long distance business traveller subsidise other parts of the railway, so those customers have another reason to be dissatisfied: if they feel their ticket prices are too high it's because they are!
It's also true that the London commuter and the long distance business traveller subsidise other parts of the railway, so those customers have another reason to be dissatisfied: if they feel their ticket prices are too high it's because they are!
Southern
Member
Why is Southeastern hated by its customers? Well, let's see:
1. East Kent/Kent Coast services cut to make way for HS1. Journey times increase due to more stops being added on Ashford/Gillingham - London routes.
2. Metro routes that need more than a single 465 at the weekend.
3. Frequent cancellations/short formations due to failing reliability of Class 466's.
4. Staff who lack even the basic knowledge required to do their job, mainly down to lack of employer-employee communication.
5. Certain staff who just don't care and treat customers with contempt. "Poorly trained" is no excuse for this and its a shame because there are those out there who enjoy working with people.
1. East Kent/Kent Coast services cut to make way for HS1. Journey times increase due to more stops being added on Ashford/Gillingham - London routes.
2. Metro routes that need more than a single 465 at the weekend.
3. Frequent cancellations/short formations due to failing reliability of Class 466's.
4. Staff who lack even the basic knowledge required to do their job, mainly down to lack of employer-employee communication.
5. Certain staff who just don't care and treat customers with contempt. "Poorly trained" is no excuse for this and its a shame because there are those out there who enjoy working with people.
Not really, because Vehicle Excise Duty isn't charged per mile, and isn't spent (directly) on the roads anyway.
Well yes really, because if you totted up all of the road tax and fuel duty etc and assigned it to each route mile according to its usage, you would still find that large sections or the road network still didn't generate enough usage to pay for their maintenance.
blakey1152
Member
- Joined
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- 450
SET have this uncanny ability to annoy me.
They seem to fail miserably on their communication skills and in the process frustrate their customers!
Last year, the ticket office at Slade Green was closed for 2 weeks and the ticket machine was out of order at the same time (no PTT machine at Slade Green). This meant that anyone needing a paper style ticket generally ended up with the spanish inquisition if stopped at their destinations.
I got stopped twice at Dartford and after getting the third degree and even being told that its my responsibility to have a ticket and I could have bought a ticket well in advance for my journey online or at another station I now take a picture if the ticket office is closed and the machine is out of order!
It seems that as far as they were concerned if the ticket office should have been open - they believed it was and I had purposely not bought a ticket.
I did end up spending the best part of half an hour getting through the barriers thanks to the over zealous staff at Dartford on those days!
conversely, the staff at London Bridge gave no trouble whatsoever!!!!!
Also, why do they always give the fast Gillingham to Charing X service priority over the stopping service?
I hate getting to the station to have to wait an additional 5-8 minutes if I'm unlucky enough to be at the station waiting for the --05 and --35 trains from Slade Green to Cannon Street as the fast is often running late!
That to me means that giving the late running fast priority will give them 2 late running trains arriving into London....
Rant and Rave over
Chris
Which reminds me.... I need to chase them up for the 50p they owe me!
They seem to fail miserably on their communication skills and in the process frustrate their customers!
Last year, the ticket office at Slade Green was closed for 2 weeks and the ticket machine was out of order at the same time (no PTT machine at Slade Green). This meant that anyone needing a paper style ticket generally ended up with the spanish inquisition if stopped at their destinations.
I got stopped twice at Dartford and after getting the third degree and even being told that its my responsibility to have a ticket and I could have bought a ticket well in advance for my journey online or at another station I now take a picture if the ticket office is closed and the machine is out of order!
It seems that as far as they were concerned if the ticket office should have been open - they believed it was and I had purposely not bought a ticket.
I did end up spending the best part of half an hour getting through the barriers thanks to the over zealous staff at Dartford on those days!
conversely, the staff at London Bridge gave no trouble whatsoever!!!!!
Also, why do they always give the fast Gillingham to Charing X service priority over the stopping service?
I hate getting to the station to have to wait an additional 5-8 minutes if I'm unlucky enough to be at the station waiting for the --05 and --35 trains from Slade Green to Cannon Street as the fast is often running late!
That to me means that giving the late running fast priority will give them 2 late running trains arriving into London....
Rant and Rave over
Chris
Which reminds me.... I need to chase them up for the 50p they owe me!
telstarbox
Established Member
Used to use Southeastern (and their predecessors) every day and still do now and again. I think they're pretty good tbh - decent rolling stock helps but the staff are much friendlier than those on FTPE and FCC in my opinion.
If you did. But there's no reason to, and in any case the southeast has plenty of country roads as well as motorways.
For the Railway though we have TOCs who pay the government large sums of money and TOCs who are paid equally large sums. The difference is clear.
Claiming that most complainants of SE are people blaming them for Network Rail issues is a bit unfair. There are always some people that will blame everything on Southeastern, or the TOC, for issues beyond their control. Having said that many have legitimate complaints recently over issues Southeastern are responsible for - that being lack of drivers and guards leading to cancellations, and also a lack of trains due to failing to manage maintainence properly, and worst of all never telling passengers what is happening at the station, or online, or giving a proper long term timeline of when a normal service will resume. Months of 4 coach trains at 6pm when 8 has been the norm for decades, with no reason given as to why does test people and SE just need to be honest, and rectify it.
If they put in one page on their website saying we expect normality to resume by December, for example, and why many trains are half length in peak times into London, that would make a difference.
I will add that station staff are always friendly when I encounter them. They often are as frustrated now with the continuing problems over the past 6 months as they are unfairly getting the flack from some people.
If they put in one page on their website saying we expect normality to resume by December, for example, and why many trains are half length in peak times into London, that would make a difference.
I will add that station staff are always friendly when I encounter them. They often are as frustrated now with the continuing problems over the past 6 months as they are unfairly getting the flack from some people.
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The TOC's themselves are artificial entities borne of the eccentric way in which the network was divided up at privatisation.
Just because your local TOC may pay a large sum towards the Government, that doesn't mean that it doesn't include routes which aren't in themselves profitable - or indeed that some off-peak trains on profitable routes aren't profitable. Why draw an artificial distinction between subsidising these services and not services elsewhere in the country.
It should also be remembered that at times, commuter TOC's in the South East have received subsidy from Central Government anyway, meaning subsidy from parts of the country with less access to railway transport.
There may well be plenty of country roads in the South East, but road infrastructure will always be more expensive per head where population is less densley spread, meaning in effect that money raised through road taxes in the South East will flow North and West. (This is one of the justifications for Scotland receiving a more funds from Central Government per head of population). Why are you so concerned about subsidising one form of transport elsewhere in the country but not another ?
The way we pay for our road infrastructure is actually rather old fashioned. With electronic road pricing, there's no reason why road usage couldn't be more closely factored in to where the road budget is spent. In many ways, this would be logical. There does seem to be a certain amount of resistance to this though.
Poss Planner
Member
- Joined
- 25 Aug 2011
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- 19
Speaking as a victim of National Express's Bus Operation in the West Midlands - interesting to see they are held in such high regard for their rail franchise.
I trust their fares have risen relentlessly as they try to extract as much money as possible with the least effort!
I trust their fares have risen relentlessly as they try to extract as much money as possible with the least effort!
National Express were effectively bankrupt 2 years ago when Bowker left under a cloud......
All the announced NXEA improvements were binned immediately and the only driver for NX Group over the 2 years has been PROFIT!
Stuff customers....they dont care!
All the announced NXEA improvements were binned immediately and the only driver for NX Group over the 2 years has been PROFIT!
Stuff customers....they dont care!
I have just emailed SET to compliment one of their staff, who was absolutely outstanding yesterday. So they can't be all bad!
In fact, I have found their trains very good on each occasion I have travelled with them, though I accept my feeling smight be different if that was every working day!
In fact, I have found their trains very good on each occasion I have travelled with them, though I accept my feeling smight be different if that was every working day!
Where did you get that idea? MML is the exception that makes the rule, and it's atypical of their franchises.
Having examined MML in detail I'm not sure why it's held in such high regard anyway. It was inefficient, and it's decent performance was solely down to having little interference and decent rolling stock from the off. Its management also indulged in stupid internecine strife with fellow NX TOC, Central Trains.
I suspect that the love for MML comes from the fact that it continued to run largely as it did under BR.
tbtc
Veteran Member
MMl completely changed the service, doubled the number of services into London, introduced direct London links to a lot of new places (Barnsley, Burton, Matlock etc)...
...they turned it from being a neglected "also ran" into a busy route, in the way that Chiltern have done the same for their route.
Introducing the first Turbostars, then extending them, then introducing 222s to replace them, planning to run nine coach services from Leeds to London... they were a breath of fresh air.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
MML were once named the worst operator for punctuality but this was only because of problems encountered when extending their Sheffield services to Manchester during the major engineering work on the WCML.
Cascading the 170s to sister company CT was also a good move by National Express. It's just a shame that EMT didn't take on part of the CT 170 fleet.
Cascading the 170s to sister company CT was also a good move by National Express. It's just a shame that EMT didn't take on part of the CT 170 fleet.
lookingforit35
Member
I use SE every weekday so feel pretty well qualified to comment.
I certainly dont "hate" the company. The staff are usually pretty helpful and trains on my route are more on time than not.
Where they consistently annoy though is:
Season ticket prices hiked up to reflect the "improvement" that HS1 brings. But Javelin trains dont run from my station and I get no tangible benefit! I've used HS1 from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras occassionally but my SE annual season ticket gets me no discount either.
Train maintenance is best described as patchy. I posted about the odd way the 375 fleet is being refurbed - latest is to screw the handholds back on so they hang off the seat backs at a weird angle. 375s could be so good but are negelcted by SE. And whilst not exactly important, dont get me started about the endless variations of colour schemes!
I certainly dont "hate" the company. The staff are usually pretty helpful and trains on my route are more on time than not.
Where they consistently annoy though is:
Season ticket prices hiked up to reflect the "improvement" that HS1 brings. But Javelin trains dont run from my station and I get no tangible benefit! I've used HS1 from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras occassionally but my SE annual season ticket gets me no discount either.
Train maintenance is best described as patchy. I posted about the odd way the 375 fleet is being refurbed - latest is to screw the handholds back on so they hang off the seat backs at a weird angle. 375s could be so good but are negelcted by SE. And whilst not exactly important, dont get me started about the endless variations of colour schemes!
I guess I was wrong then, they did do some good things. When I looked at them in 2006 I wasn't impressed. Perhaps the management had changed.
tbtc
Veteran Member
It may not have looked that impressive, but it was a huge leap forward from the BR days, when the Midland Main Line was downgraded significantly - having an independent franchise on the MML meant a great leap forward (service used to be 1/hour to Nottingham and 1/ hour to Sheffield under BR)
jamesst
Member
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone who has ever worked with the British public in any profession will tell you this couldnt be further than the truth!!
Anyone who has ever worked with the British public in any profession will tell you this couldnt be further than the truth!!
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