Class 185 reliability

Very new here so apologies if this discussed elsewhere. Did have a search around for 5-10 mins and saw nothing immediately.

I can't confess to having a massive interest in trains but I do have more than a passing one having been engrossed as a very young boy at the sight of the APT at Preston station one weekday evening sometime 1989/90 perhaps (unless those dates don't correlate with APT workings!).

However, I am a daily commuter between Bolton and Preston and have a choice of old Northern Rail rolling stock or the much never First TransPennine Express 185 units. It's perhaps no surprise that I time my commutes to marry up with TPE services which are not only faster for my journey but far my comfortable.

As someone with a slight engineering bent, when the 185s were introduced a couple of years back, I noticed the increase in engine revs upon braking and took it upon myself to investigate why before realising the rheostatic braking nature of the 185s. I wonder if anyone has ever looked into the environmental impact of an engine working harder under braking as opposed to older more traditional braking methods non-reliant on engine

Anyways, all this is just to demonstrate I do know a little more than just "it's a train with doors and wheels"!

The point I make is this...over the last six months or so it's become apparent a number of 185 engines idle poorly and some are starting to sound very "rough" indeed.

Also, TPE seem to run 185s on only 2 engines at certain parts and I notice this even between Bolton and Preston. The other day, on my way home, it was clear the driver was attempting to start the engine in my carriage but without success and at Chorley and Horwich Parkway stations continued to try but to no avail. Finally, when I got off at Bolton, I heard the engine finally start along with a huge plume of black acrid smoke which was blown down to platform level.

Do these Cummins engines have reliability issues or is poor idling, starting problems simply a result of inadequate/poor maintenance (savings costs?) at First TPE?

A wikipedia entry indicated oil splatterings visible externally on 185s necessitated a "crank case breathing modification". Has this had the desired effect as I still see oil splattered all over some 185s to this day.

F

FTPE have a policy of their drivers shutting down the engines in 1 coach when they're not really needed, to save fuel. Over the Pennines, the 185s seem to be able to keep to time even when only two of the three coaches are powered, going uphill! The class is well over-powered for most of its duties, but I would imagine that the 100 mph running requires all 3 coaches to be under power. In my experience, the engines that get cut out are usually below the 1st class coach, which means its passengers get a quieter ride.

I don't know what the actual reliability figures for the fleet are, but I would think pretty high.

Are you *sure* he was trying to start the 3rd engine? There would be no reason to need three engines in that location. Unless the computer was trying to start one and switch off another. It is meant to be running with only two. Which engine is shut down is controlled by a computer, it is not always the engine under first class, that would cause maintenance nightmares. They are all equal.

D841...Thanks for your comments.

I actually contacted First TPE customer service when I first realised 185s were being run on only 2 engines over certain areas as my normal morning commute is rarely on time. I suggested to them running the 3rd engine would help the train accelerate quicker and make up the lost time. Their response was to confirm 2 engine running was done to (a) reduce fuel costs and (b) for environmental issues. Nothing more was mentioned.

In my commuting experience, 3 engines are normally all in use on approach to Bolton (coming from Manchester Airport) but once cruising speed reached around Horwich Parkway, I've frequently been in a carriage which gets turned off. Then, prior to departure from Chorley station, the engine is restarted presumably to allow WCML operating speeds from Euxton Junction.

Interestingly, my train back from Preston to Bolton at night means I am on platform 5 of Preston station when 2 coupled 185s arrive from Manchester, splitting at Preston with front half to Edinburgh and rear half to Windermere. Only 5 engines are normally in use when the train comes to rest at Preston as I have a habbit of listening out as the train passes me on slowing down. Once split, all 6 engines are started presumably to allow for WCML operating speeds as both trains use WCML out of Preston.

ukrob - I'm no expert but I was confident (a) the engine in my carriage was not running for the entire journey from Preston to Bolton and at Preston, Chorley and Horwich Parkway stations there were strange noises coming from underneath which sounded very much like an engine turning but not particularly well nor for very long. I have used 185s every day of the week since their introduction and do listen and look out for the most bizarre things so unusual noises catch my attention. Then, at Bolton station, despite me having alighted and been walking away from the carriage, I heard a similar noise except this time the cranking procedure was successful and an awful lot of smoke belched out from the exhaust, much more than I'm used to seeing when they start up. So I'm not 100% certain but I'd go as far as to say 95% certain.

I hadn't realised engine running order was computer controlled as I had assumed the driver was in charge of which engine was running. Mind you, last night, when 2 185s were detaching from each other, I was standing alongside the driver's cab of the train which had just reversed a couple of feet, and initially noted the front engine was not running. Then, with the driver having opened his door and leaning out talking to staff on the platform, the engine did start up. Either he initiated the procedure and it takes a few seconds to commence or it was started automatically.

None of this, of course, covers the rough sounding idling of some of the units. When the 185s were first introduced they would idle pretty much perfectly from an audio standpoint. There are a number which now cycle up and down the revs when idling and one last night came so close to stalling on the "rev down" the carriage vibrated a little.

The internal scrolling messageboards are also beginning to cause problems with some "pixels" now failing.

Incidentally, is it just coincidence that late trains don't show the current time on the displays or is this intentionally FTPE policy not highlighting late services to passengers?

F

D841 said:

In my experience, the engines that get cut out are usually below the 1st class coach, which means its passengers get a quieter ride.

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I must take issue with that, I travelled in 185115 on the 0400 Manchester Airport to York on Saturday 17th January 2009 in the First Class section. I lost count of the number of times the engine in our coach shut down (I am aware of the Eco Mode function and all that) between Manchester Piccadilly (where I joined vice Manchester Airport in the end to observe freights beforehand) and Leeds. Which meant that yes whilst it was off it was quieter, but when they fired it back up (and the engine would be off for around 30 seconds each time thus pointless to me...) the noise and rattling was ridiculous. So much so I was very tempted to find the driver and tell him to stop switching the bloody thing off!

Perhaps it would be suffice to say this was not a journey I enjoyed. And I like the 185s!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ffcphone said:

None of this, of course, covers the rough sounding idling of some of the units. When the 185s were first introduced they would idle pretty much perfectly from an audio standpoint. There are a number which now cycle up and down the revs when idling and one last night came so close to stalling on the "rev down" the carriage vibrated a little.

The internal scrolling messageboards are also beginning to cause problems with some "pixels" now failing.

Incidentally, is it just coincidence that late trains don't show the current time on the displays or is this intentionally FTPE policy not highlighting late services to passengers?

F

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I concur with the comment re: idling engines. My first run with the class in 185107 from Manchester Piccadilly to Mauldeth Road (to scratch in the required shack!) in 2007 went beautifully, no problems noted whatsoever. Same for the rest of them in the meantime. Much more recently (November 2008 onwards) I've noticed the rattles and poor idling a lot on my 185 moves.

I also noticed this thing with the time on 185115 last weekend, the clock was not displayed on the display until 0601. No idea why that would be though.

Techniquest said:

Which meant that yes whilst it was off it was quieter, but when they fired it back up (and the engine would be off for around 30 seconds each time thus pointless to me...) the noise and rattling was ridiculous. So much so I was very tempted to find the driver and tell him to stop switching the bloody thing off!

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I've had this problem on a Voyager and a Meridian before. The engine would cut off and then start again a minute or so later. Overheating??? - the driver must know this is happening so why not isolate the engine?
Also I think this eco-mode stuff isn't doing the engines any favours and the constant shuting of and starting must be putting a lot of strain on them. Couldn't the engine just idle when it is not needed on instead of shutting off - a computer could control this.

I would agree with that suggestion. This Eco Mode thing is going to be the downfall of the class if they keep on with it the way it is now.

What exactly does "eco mode" do? I had presumed it merely automatically turned an engine off if the train was stationery for a preset length of time ie brought to rest at a signal due to a problem ahead. Burning fuel and producing emissions not very bright when little chance of moving off in the short term. A bit like a massive traffic jam on the motorway. Everyone turns their car engines off.

Does eco mode have some input during train motion?

F
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

222001 said:

I've had this problem on a Voyager and a Meridian before. The engine would cut off and then start again a minute or so later. Overheating??? - the driver must know this is happening so why not isolate the engine?
Also I think this eco-mode stuff isn't doing the engines any favours and the constant shuting of and starting must be putting a lot of strain on them. Couldn't the engine just idle when it is not needed on instead of shutting off - a computer could control this.

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I presume train engines, like other petrol or diesel powered engines are cooled. So if they are over-heating it's due to a problem such as lack of coolant or other internal mechanical failure. If my car was to suddenly start over-heating I wouldn't keep stopping and starting the engine.

So perhaps there's something more to this?

F

ffcphone said:

I presume train engines, like other petrol or diesel powered engines are cooled. So if they are over-heating it's due to a problem such as lack of coolant or other internal mechanical failure. If my car was to suddenly start over-heating I wouldn't keep stopping and starting the engine.

So perhaps there's something more to this?
F

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I think the engine shuting off and re-starting was an automated process. I don't the driver would do that, unless he was struggling to get power out of the other engines.

Eco-mode works as you decribed. Another part of this is drivers shuting down engines on routes that don't need them running - but this can be done many times during the route and it can't be good for engine wear.

You might referring to the engine hunting for fuel. I'm told they are supposed to do this but don't know why.

Found this on the Siemens Transportation website which might help those, like me, fill in the gaps...

Eco-Mode saves 1.8m litres of fuel for the Class 185 fleet
Date: 30/11/2007

An environmental improvement initiative developed by First TransPennine Express and Siemens Transportation Systems, has slashed the fuel consumption of the Class 185 Diesel Multiple Unit by 7%.

It has also reduced engine running time by 80 minutes per vehicle per day, saving over 1.8m litres of fuel per year.

Eco Mode has been introduced without incurring any delay minutes on the First TransPennine Express network or compromising on passenger comfort. It has been developed through train control modifications, selective engine use, evaluation of route-by-route fuel consumption rates and analysis of driving techniques – all with the overall objective of reducing CO2 emissions.

One of the key features of the Eco Mode is reduced engine idling time by automatically shutting engines down when trains are stationary and through using just two of the three engines on selected routes. Meanwhile, Eco Driving guidelines to optimise coasting – developed following comprehensive modelling of train performance over the geography of the core route – have been introduced. First TransPennine Express has consulted and involved its drivers to ensure they are fully engaged in and supportive of the initiative.

Nick Donovan, engineering director at First TransPennine Express, said: “We take our responsibility to operate our business in a way which minimises our carbon footprint very seriously. This pioneering scheme will deliver long term reduction of at least 11% in fuel use without significant capital investment in the fleet – just initiative and hard work jointly between First TransPennine Express and Siemens. Our goal is to increase the fuel savings from the already achieved 1.8 million litres per year to at least 2.5 million litres per year.”

Additional elements of the initiative all designed to reduce fuel consumption include running empty stock moves to depots on just one engine and implementation of train control software that eliminates unnecessary engine idling at standstill.

Hans Benker at Siemens said: “Environmental considerations such as reducing CO2 emissions and improving sustainability play an important role when it comes to making the railways attractive and ensuring that even more people and freight will be carried by rail in the future. This initiative demonstrates Siemens’ commitment to optimising the performance of the Pennine Class 185 – the first diesel variant of the proven Siemens Desiro electric train – both in terms of reliability and environmental performance. This is the first of what we hope will be a series of joint initiatives with First TransPennine Express to minimize the environmental impact of running the fleet.”

Further developments to the scheme are planned from January 2008 - the train control system will shut down engine use during trips where full power is not required and a cab display will show drivers’ fuel usage to show changes in their driving techniques translate to savings in fuel consumption.

F

Well at least one company seems to care about saving fuel! I remember seeing an EMT 10 car Meridian with all engines running. That is just not needed.

The cynic in me says "less fuel = less fuel costs = higher profit".

I wonder if I write to Mr Donovan he'll agree to refund 7-11% of my season ticket costs as a result of Eco Mode saving them money?

F

And I wonder if FTPE are given their 4th car if they will still be able to run on 2/4 engines or not...

Bayum said:

And I wonder if FTPE are given their 4th car if they will still be able to run on 2/4 engines or not...

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That is pretty irrelevant surely as they are not getting their 4th cars?

I thought they were...

And, i'm pretty sure it said somewhere in that House of Commons video that they were as well?

Could be wrong though... Hope i'm not...

Bayum said:

I thought they were...

And, i'm pretty sure it said somewhere in that House of Commons video that they were as well?

Could be wrong though... Hope i'm not...

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They are getting a number of new trains, not Class 185 vehicles as part of the 200 new DMU carriages.

ffcphone said:

The cynic in me says "less fuel = less fuel costs = higher profit".

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=more money to spend on improving your railway lines.

ffcphone said:

I wonder if I write to Mr Donovan he'll agree to refund 7-11% of my season ticket costs as a result of Eco Mode saving them money?

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Well, no. Because it's saving 7% on the fuel costs. The drivers still get paid the same, as do the other operational staff. The stations still need to be maintained, the trains still need to be maintained... I suppose the cost saving is, in effect, minimal when you take everything else into consideration.

me123 said:

=more money to spend on improving your railway lines.

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Hmmm, wishful thinking. I'm sure the shareholders in First Group and Keolis would have something to say about that.

me123 said:

Well, no. Because it's saving 7% on the fuel costs. The drivers still get paid the same, as do the other operational staff. The stations still need to be maintained, the trains still need to be maintained... I suppose the cost saving is, in effect, minimal when you take everything else into consideration.

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Agree with your point in principle although given the amount of fuel they must purchase, a 7% reduction in fuel costs is probably very noticeable to TPE expenses.

On a separate issue, and something I always mention to TPE customer services when I contact them, is how clean and tidy they are managing to keep the 185 interiors to date. I appreciate even the oldest 185s are probably only coming up to 3 years old this year but nevertheless with some of the people I see travelling on them and their habits, I'm very impressed with overall cleanliness. Something to be applauded.

Railway Gazette article provides further detail as to the 185's Eco Mode which may be interesting to those who are interested!

"Siemens Mobility and TransPennine Express initiated the Eco-Mode programme to maximise the energy efficiency of the Class 185 fleet in July 2007. By the end of that year, a range of techniques had been adopted aimed primarily at helping drivers to conserve fuel through a more detailed understanding of the topography of the routes covered by TPE’s fleet. Eco-Mode Phase 1 yielded savings equivalent to 1·8 million litres of fuel per year but the two companies have continued to develop a more sophisticated approach based around computer control of each train’s power usage.

At the heart of the programme is the selective use of the Cummins QSK19 powerpacks, rated at 750 hp, which are located under each of the three cars. The second phase introduces the 'eco-cruise’ concept, a driver-selectable facility that maintains the speed of the train automatically on two engines, allowing the third to be shut down to save on fuel and lifecycle costs. The driver is able to select the function as soon as the desired cruise speed is reached.

The engine shutdown has no impact on journey times however, as all three power units are used to accelerate to line speed. No hardware changes have been made to the DMUs — the cruise facility can be managed using the existing driver-machine interface.

As part of the latest upgrade, Eco-Mode now allows the train to run automatically on two engines during part of a journey where full power is only required sporadically, for example when accelerating away from station calls.

The selection is made on the basis of an algorithm that analyses the geographical location of the train, its speed and the driver’s traction needs. On a less arduous route, such as between York and Scarborough, two-engine running is triggered very early in the journey, whereas on higher-speed routes all three cars are powered throughout. This is a particular feature of TPE services from Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh via the steeply-graded northern section of the West Coast Main Line.

TPE expects Eco-Mode Phase 2 to extend the annual reduction in fuel consumption from 7% under Phase 1 to 11%, and the programme as a whole should reduce engine hours by 20%.

In addition to the fuel saving benefits that the software brings, there are additional advantages such as a reduction in engine idling. Most of TPE services now arrive at terminal stations with only two engines running, and one of these is automatically shut down one minute after arrival. These are then re-started just prior to departure.

The programme to modify the 51-strong Class 185 fleet to full Eco-Mode operation was due for completion at the end of August. Passengers are likely to notice the change only through a quieter ride and quieter stations."

I beg to differ. Passengers (ie me) now notice frequent engine starts!

Quite so, it's hardly difficult to notice when the engine under your feet sounds like it stalled!

Granted, on my trip to the North with 185131 and 115 (latter returning home) earlier this month I didn't notice it as much, but then I was engrossed in my book going north and with my MP3 player going south.

What I couldn't fail to notice was the seats and how dreadfully uncomfortable they are! Even a Voyager (from memory, thankfully I haven't endured one since January 2009) and my 175 going north was more comfortable, and they rank amongst the most uncomfortable seats in the country. Suffice to say alighting at Manchester and standing at the end of platform 8 was more comfortable...

I find them fairly comfortable actually, and I do travel on them a hell of a lot!

Eco mode seems to be working alright too, it appears to be able to cut off an engine whilst still moving, but only start one when stopped. One of the major problems is the heating in the coach with the engine turned off often fails!

I concur some people find them OK, but I'm a large chap (as you may recall from our meet in Doncaster almost a year ago Jordy) so I find them worse than the average individual. Which is in complete contrast to my surprise of my opinion of them from February to April 2007 (the first couple of months I had tried them out within), which I have decided is due to my anti-plastic feelings since January this year.

Eco Mode did seem better on the few bits of 185'ing I did, 185106 on the 0750 from Leeds as far as York for me didn't seem to be constantly shutting down and firing back up all the time as per my previous 185'ing a few months ago. Which is good, as I had been fed up of things shaking across the tables!

And thank you to the gentleman who posted the article by the way, made for an interesting read. I didn't know that they had been planning to introduce EM2, but it looks like they'll save a fortune on fuel when it kicks in.

Jordy said:

I find them fairly comfortable actually, and I do travel on them a hell of a lot!

Eco mode seems to be working alright too, it appears to be able to cut off an engine whilst still moving, but only start one when stopped. One of the major problems is the heating in the coach with the engine turned off often fails!

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I think you're right about starting and stopping. I was on one from Manchester to Leeds earlier this week. The engine under my coach cut out between Stalybridge and Mossley, i.e. on the climb, and cut in again in the platform at Huddersfield. I haven't noticed any failed heating yet, though.

ukrob said:

They are getting a number of new trains, not Class 185 vehicles as part of the 200 new DMU carriages.

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Testament to DafT's perfection of dragging their heels and making things more complicated for nothing.

The uneven idling is caused by the engine ECU taking it in turns not to inject fuel into a cylinder. This is done on a cyclical system so the sequence will start with number one cylinder and move progressively down the rack and then start at one again. (Well thats what the nice man at Scania told me about Cummins engined lorries today).

It is also possible that there are also running on Bio fuel. As this will make the engine sound different

Techniquest said:

And thank you to the gentleman who posted the article by the way, made for an interesting read. I didn't know that they had been planning to introduce EM2, but it looks like they'll save a fortune on fuel when it kicks in.

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No worries.

The article was actually from Q4 2008 so Eco Mode Phase 2 is already implemented.

I've also located this Railway Gazette article referring to Phase 1...

"TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS and Siemens Transportation Systems are extending their Eco-Mode programme, which was launched in July [2007] to improve the environmental credentials of the UK train operating company's 51-strong fleet of Class 185 Desiro DMUs.

Eco-Mode focuses on reducing fuel consumption by encouraging drivers to adopt more efficient driving techniques, analysing fuel consumption against the gradient and speed profiles of routes covered by the Class 185s. TPE says this has already reduced fuel consumption by 7% and reduced engine running time by 80 min per vehicle per day, equivalent to 1·8 million litres of fuel per year.

The three-car sets have all vehicles powered by a 750 hp Cummins QSK19 underfloor engine. Empty stock movements are routinely undertaken on a single engine, and gradient modelling of the TPE network has enabled Siemens engineers to develop a 'route map' for drivers showing where schedules can be maintained with the use of only two engines.

An automatic shutdown feature for use at depots and stabling points has been introduced, as TPE Engineering Director Nick Donovan acknowledges that the QSK19 power unit 'does not like idling'.

TPE is to step up its driver training this month in the search for further gains. Donovan suggests that the operator faces a cultural challenge as much a technical one, getting the drivers to trust the Class 185 to start from cold rather than leaving units to idle for long periods when not in revenue service. 'We said that if they could trust their car to start from cold in the morning, they could trust the 185 too', he comments.

Siemens is working on an algorithm that will enable one of the three engines to be shut down automatically whilst running over pre-defined sections of line, such as the steeply-graded descent from Standedge Tunnel to Stalybridge. However, the drivers would still have a manual override. A cab display will show fuel usage, helping the drivers to see how changes in driving technique translate into fuel savings.

TPE believes fuel consumption could be cut by as much as 20% when the Eco-Mode programme is fully implemented.

CAPTION: The modification of each Class 185 DMU for Eco-Mode operation is denoted by the letter E applied to the cab front."

Remember this is an article from December 2007.

And one more article from the Cummins website...

"Berlin, Germany (September 19, 2006) - Cummins latest version of the Stage IIIA/Tier 3 certified QSK19-R horizontal engine for passenger railcars is exhibited at the Innotrans exhibition (September 19 - September 22). By incorporating state-of-the-art modular common rail fuel system (MCRS) and the latest combustion technology, the well-proven 19litre horizontal engine now has even lower emissions whilst retaining its output range of 485 kW to 560 kW (650 hp to 750 hp).

"The engine is purpose-designed for powering high speed rail Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs) and passenger railcars around the world", commented Steve Dodman, Locomotive-Business Development Manager. "The new generation QSK19-R meets the latest Stage IIIA European emissions as well as Tier 3 EPA MOH (Mobile Off-Highway) emissions. The 19litre engine is the number one engine in the European market in the range of 485 kW (650 hp) to 560 kW (750 hp) for the underfloor railcar diesel market".

"The QSK19-R will be equipped with Modular Common Rail Fuel System (MCRS) as early as 2007 which is normally found in the locomotive version of the QSK19-L. The vertical locomotive engine with MCRS is already in rail service in a multi-engine, ultra low emissions switcher in California", Mr Dodman added. MCRS offers incomparable capabilities. It enables precise control of fuel injection to prevent unbalanced fuelling and the uneven pressure between cylinders which contribute to NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). Noise under load and at idle can dramatically be reduced, by up to 7 dB(A). Also, engine idle stability and cold starting are considerably improved.

Over 1,500 Cummins QSK19-R engines have been installed worldwide in high speed passenger trains. In particular, Cummins has supplied more than 550 engines to German train manufacturers. A few of the Cummins QSK19-R powered railcars in Germany include the VT612 built by Bombardier, VT605 built by Siemens-Bombardier and VT614 re-power by DB.

This proves that the 19-litre engine far surpasses any other equivalent engine in terms of durability and uptime availability. Indeed, the upgraded Stage IIIA/Tier 3 QSK19-R engine will move this reputation even further ahead with overall durability increased by up to 30%. The engine offers high acceleration and high speed capability reducing journey times - very important factor to both train operators and passengers.

The QSK19-R's compact size, low profile and in-line configuration allows simple underfloor installation, as well as the benefit of all-external maintenance and good accessibility. Furthermore, the QSK19-R's proven high reliability, long life to overhaul and multiple rebuilds make it a unique product in the underfloor railcar diesel market giving increased confidence to rail operators every time.

The 19-litre engine uses full authority control electronic management system which precisely and continually maintains an optimum balance between load demands, fuel-efficiency and emissions control. Plus, it provides advanced monitoring, diagnostic and prognostic capabilities. The Cummins electronic control system has been proven in railway applications throughout the world from the high altitudes of Tibet to the deserts of Namibia.

The engine electronic module operates at twice the processing speed of the previous system, fully isolated from any detrimental thermal or vibration loadings. Engine sensors, harness and connectors have all been upgraded to rugged, fail-safe designs matching that found on much larger Cummins Quantum locomotive engines."

19 litres...that must guzzle some diesel. I wonder what mpg those engines get.

F

I am sure that the Eco Mode system on the Class 185 units has its attributes in both fuel savings and engine/transmission life cycles, but surely account must be taken by the increased demands to the engine starting systems with increased wear rates of those areas concerned. Even at normal operating temperatures, the Cummins QSK19 takes quite a bit of cranking to fire up and no matter how many advancements Cummins have made to their engines to date, diesel engines are not suited for continual shut down-start up procedure that Eco Mode dictates. A case of solving one problem but creating another?

TrainBrain185 said:

I am sure that the Eco Mode system on the Class 185 units has its attributes in both fuel savings and engine/transmission life cycles, but surely account must be taken by the increased demands to the engine starting systems with increased wear rates of those areas concerned. Even at normal operating temperatures, the Cummins QSK19 takes quite a bit of cranking to fire up and no matter how many advancements Cummins have made to their engines to date, diesel engines are not suited for continual shut down-start up procedure that Eco Mode dictates. A case of solving one problem but creating another?

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Yeah, isn't it a known fact (from cars etc also) that most wear is caused by engines which are started and stopped constantly (cars with lots of motorway miles for example generally have had less wear and tear on the mechanical parts than one which has just been used around town) as well as the fact that more fuel is used when an engine starts up.

I have always wondered why they don't shut the engines down when parked in stations for a long while (namely terminuses where some can be sat waiting for half an hour or more - Manchester Piccadilly springs to mind being a regular point of change for me where some of the Voyagers are there for a while) and can only assume it is because the engines are best left running and being kept warm to keep them their most efficient.

I have come accross the Eco-Mode a couple of times now, most notably on the stretch (as someone previously pinted out) between Malton and Seamer on the Scarborough line when it went notably quieter (in that case I think it was coach C - I am led to believe each coach drops out in turn to keep the fuel levels similar in all tanks) but on arrival at Seamer and the engine firing up I noticed how unrefined it was as the entire coach shuddered. I have seen black smoke too, just when the trains are pulling out of stations as well.

As far as the seats are concerned, I don't find them too bad, and I'm not all that small, although it does somewhat depend on getting a seat as the units are commonly nowhere near large enough for the major routes they serve, but do wonder how well the trains will "wear" as some seat edges have completely warn, something I can't say I have spotted on the likes of the Voyagers (unless they are getting replaced without it being that obvious)

sellis89 said:

Yeah, isn't it a known fact (from cars etc also) that most wear is caused by engines which are started and stopped constantly (cars with lots of motorway miles for example generally have had less wear and tear on the mechanical parts than one which has just been used around town) as well as the fact that more fuel is used when an engine starts up.

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The majority of engine wear occurs when the engine is started because the oil has gone to the bottom of the engine, meaning that it is not as well lubricated, causing increased wear on the parts.