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Bedford to London: asked for Network Railcard discount and got GroupSave which wasn't accepted

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Thank you so much for all your replies. I think I've managed to decipher some of the abbreviations, not being 'in the know' with most of the train stuff!!

I have a Network Railcard so this was used for all of us, we don't have one each, in answer to one of the posts.

I can't upload the ticket as I don't have a scanner, but the tickets read:

Class: STD Ticket Type: SUP OFFPK DAY
2 Oct 2010
Price: 12.85
GPS-3
Between: Bedford Stations & London Zones 1-6
Route: Any Permitted

The manager at St Pancras kept saying that there is a 'list' that details all this and shows what it is and where you can use the tickets??? I checked all over the station at Bedford when we got back and I couldn't see anything and again why would I check as I assumed the tickets where correct.

Also, in reply to another thread I would have been more than happy to pay the difference in the fare prices but we were accused of being fare dodgers!!! Although we had tickets.
And no I didn't mention the diabetes etc as I was embarrassed at being pulled over infront of everyone anyway.

Anyway, what I would like to know is that as we didn't sign the PF notices do we still have to contest them or do we just ignore them?

Thank you again for all your replies.
 
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bradders1983

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:

Class: STD Ticket Type: SUP OFFPK DAY

Route: Any Permitted

Surely the above means it is cut and dried - "any permitted" means any direct train between the two stations?

I have travelled from London SP to Brighton and had "FCC ONLY " on my ticket in the "Route" section, so surely any restriction on operator also has to appear in this section on the ticket here?
 

b0b

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Surely the above means it is cut and dried - "any permitted" means any direct train between the two stations?

they're going to argue (if they really want to be stupid!) that the GPS-3 is the code that tells you its not valid on EMT. This is basically the same thing as Groupsave not being valid on XC, and they still seem to be getting away with it.
 

jkdd77

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they're going to argue (if they really want to be stupid!) that the GPS-3 is the code that tells you its not valid on EMT. This is basically the same thing as Groupsave not being valid on XC, and they still seem to be getting away with it.

Apologies for repeating myself, but even if the ticket is invalid, it doesn't necessary mean that a penalty fare may be charged.

Clearly, a PF may not be charged if a passenger is "off route" on a flexible ticket, or if they are travelling on an Off-Peak ticket when the ticket is time-barred, even though the ticket is 'invalid'.

I believe this "invalidity" falls into the same category, being a "published restriction" on the usage of a flexible ticket, and because this is the only reason why the ticket is not valid:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/nationalrailpenaltyfares/penaltyfaresrules.pdf
7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
7.7 Except when he or she is applying rule 6.7, an authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare if this would conflict with the rights given to the person by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
 

hairyhandedfool

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A ticket restricted to a TOC or not allowed on a particular TOC must have the restriction marked on the ticket. The Super Off-Peak Travelcard is not restricted and correctiy shows rte Any Permitted.

Groupsave in this case is a discount applied to that ticket and it is this discount that is restricted. This has been discussed before and, as with most topics involving the NCoC, has two opposing views with no real outcome.

HS1 is not a TOC in its own right so the restriction does not need to be shown.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
....Interestingly, it seems that if the passenger makes a mistake, they receive a PF, and if the staff make a mistake, the passenger receives a PF! We all make mistakes, HHF, I agree, but it always sems to be the fault of the passneger, implciitly or otherwise, according to 'the railway' and it's legislation! And, of course, if it comes down to it, it's just the customer's word against the staff members to boot!...

I agree that the passenger shouldn't be penalised for a staff members mistake, I was merely saying that staff make them (as opposed to it always being poor training or laziness, etc)
 

mumrar

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Surely the above means it is cut and dried - "any permitted" means any direct train between the two stations?

I have travelled from London SP to Brighton and had "FCC ONLY " on my ticket in the "Route" section, so surely any restriction on operator also has to appear in this section on the ticket here?
This has been covered in other threads before and the route being restricted by the ticket type would require to show 'FCC Only', but in this case it's the group discount which isn't valid on EMT (or at least EMT are saying that) and so the route will still show any permitted. I agree that that's not very fair, but that's how it is.

As regards the signature, if the box is empty and has not been written as 'refused', ie the customer refused to sign it, then it's invalid. Also, you can contest the presence of DVLA license, if they haven't noted your driver number with it.
 

Ferret

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This is basically the same thing as Groupsave not being valid on XC, and they still seem to be getting away with it.

Sorry, how exactly are XC 'getting away with it'?! The salient points are that Groupsave is not valid on Crosscountry, nowhere does it say that Groupsave is valid on Crosscountry, and SWT now announce that it is not valid on Crosscountry? It really is breathtakingly simple! XC are not 'getting away with anything' - they are just refusing to accept another company's product for use on their trains as any business is entitled to do and indeed would.
 

sheff1

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Anyway, what I would like to know is that as we didn't sign the PF notices do we still have to contest them or do we just ignore them?

Ignoring the discussion on the validity, or otherwise, of Groupsave is anyone able to give a definitive answer/advice on this?

I would like to know the answer myself for future reference. Are there any documented instructions available online?
 

b0b

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If the original ticket had been correctly printed "NOT EMT" then the OP may have realized what happened.
 

Ferret

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If the original ticket had been correctly printed "NOT EMT" then the OP may have realized what happened.

More pertinently, if the staff in the ticket office had explained the validity as they are required to do, then the customer would not be in this position. The issue of a PF is incorrect, the way the PF has been issued is incorrect - so all in all it's a massive fail all round.
 

First class

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This has been covered in other threads before and the route being restricted by the ticket type would require to show 'FCC Only', but in this case it's the group discount which isn't valid on EMT (or at least EMT are saying that) and so the route will still show any permitted. I agree that that's not very fair, but that's how it is.

As regards the signature, if the box is empty and has not been written as 'refused', ie the customer refused to sign it, then it's invalid. Also, you can contest the presence of DVLA license, if they haven't noted your driver number with it.

Penalty Fares are not required to be signed by the customer to be valid. They are merely asked to sign to confirm the details are correct, but there it does not void the PF if they refuse to sign. Signing a PF does not indicate that you agree with being charged a PF, it indicates that you are content that the details are correct and that you have, indeed paid (part of) the penalty fare. There is no reason not to sign, I actually think it gives you more rights (in terms of proof).

It is good practice to write 'refused' or words to that effect, but it would not see a PF thrown out.

Most PFs now also carry a description of the passenger as CCTV is increasingly being investigated.
 

clagmonster

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The Super off-peak travelcards are 'rte Any permitted' and valid on EMT. Groupsave is only valid on EMT on flows where a GR3 or GR4 fare exists (Bedford to London does not have one - Groupsave is a discount for FCC).
Thanks very much for that, it is most interesting and if true the advertising on the National Rail website, among others, is very poor. Please may I ask, where is this documented?

Dancinbird2009, may I ask, when you purchased your tickets, did the clerk mention any operator restrictions on this ticket (or the groupsave discount). Was there any discussion at all as to which services you would use?
 

Bedpan

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Surely we shpuldn't lose sight of the fact that the travellers has a Network Railcard. Was this pointed out to the ------- at the ticket barrier at St Pancras station?
I'm not sure that I and everybody else spend a great deal of time checking what I have bought to ensure its absolutely correct and if I am in a hurry to catch a train this might apply to train tickets. In the case of the many occasional travellers I'm not convinced they would know that their tickets should have said NSE where GPS-3 was written.
So this is another instance where a penalty fare notice has been issued wrongly despite the fact that the correct fare for the journey has been paid, probably due to a simple and understandable mistake by the ticket seller at Bedford. His mistake, and yet the OP is issued with a Penalty Fare
Whilst the issue of the wrong tickets was probably a simple mistake the same cannot be said of the deliberate issue of the PF.
 

b0b

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So this is another instance where a penalty fare notice has been issued wrongly despite the fact that the correct fare for the journey has been paid, probably due to a simple and understandable mistake by the ticket seller at Bedford.

I'm not so sure you can discount that the ticket seller, employed by First Capital Connect, knew that 3 people on a Network card is the same price as GroupSave-3, and is told to sell the GPS-3 as the revenue would not be split with EMT....
 

scotsman

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How many passengers would understand what 'Route Not XC' actually means if it wasn't pointed out to them, especially those who only use the train occasionally ?

Fair enough, but at least they've made an effort - a damn sight better than a string of numbers. I had a passenger I had to help at the weekend - she boarded out tour thinking it was the 0859 to Kings Cross (an EC service) as the departure boards had it up as that. I went to sort out times and connections for her to get to her destination and discovered her ticket read Route: XC ONLY.

TOCs do need to make it more obvious I suppose
 

MikeWh

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I'm not so sure you can discount that the ticket seller, employed by First Capital Connect, knew that 3 people on a Network card is the same price as GroupSave-3, and is told to sell the GPS-3 as the revenue would not be split with EMT....

If that is the case then surely they also must explain that the ticket cannot be used on EMT. If such a conversation had been started then I'm sure that the word groupsave would probably have crept into it and the issue would have gone away one way or the other.

Just going back to my earlier post ... is anyone in a position to verify whether the ticket office machine might suffer from the same issue as NRES and convert 3 people with railcards into a groupsave-3 without warning?
 

Greenback

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I agree that the passenger shouldn't be penalised for a staff members mistake, I was merely saying that staff make them (as opposed to it always being poor training or laziness, etc)

I wasn't having a pop at you HHF! I know that everyone, passengers and staff make mistakes now and again, it just seems to be more costly for the passenger whoever makes it!

More pertinently, if the staff in the ticket office had explained the validity as they are required to do, then the customer would not be in this position. The issue of a PF is incorrect, the way the PF has been issued is incorrect - so all in all it's a massive fail all round.

Agreed, subject to the elimination of technical problems (see below!)

Surely we shpuldn't lose sight of the fact that the travellers has a Network Railcard. Was this pointed out to the ------- at the ticket barrier at St Pancras station?
I'm not sure that I and everybody else spend a great deal of time checking what I have bought to ensure its absolutely correct and if I am in a hurry to catch a train this might apply to train tickets. In the case of the many occasional travellers I'm not convinced they would know that their tickets should have said NSE where GPS-3 was written.

I doubt the code means anything to anyone outside of the railway industry! I doubt I would have picked up on it, if I hadn't had the experience of working in the ticket office many years ago. I don't know how the average person is emant to spot this sort of thing.

If that is the case then surely they also must explain that the ticket cannot be used on EMT. If such a conversation had been started then I'm sure that the word groupsave would probably have crept into it and the issue would have gone away one way or the other.

Just going back to my earlier post ... is anyone in a position to verify whether the ticket office machine might suffer from the same issue as NRES and convert 3 people with railcards into a groupsave-3 without warning?

Ticket office staff should explain any restrictions to the customer. But firstly, they should try and establish exactly what the customer requires (not an easy task in today's complicated world of ticketing!). The second part of the process is to actually issue the correct ticket according to those needs. Neithe rof these seems to have been done on this occasion.

Having said that, it is surely worth at elast an investigation to see if there is a technical problem with ticket issuing systems replacing the network discount with groupsave when there are 3 or 4 adults travelling. This would also mean that the clerk didn't make any mistake at all!
 

hairyhandedfool

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I'm not so sure you can discount that the ticket seller, employed by First Capital Connect, knew that 3 people on a Network card is the same price as GroupSave-3, and is told to sell the GPS-3 as the revenue would not be split with EMT....

Ticket sales from the ticket office at Bedford MUST be impartial, they MUST NOT put the interests of one TOC above another, even when the fare is the same.

Thanks very much for that, it is most interesting and if true the advertising on the National Rail website, among others, is very poor. Please may I ask, where is this documented?....

I don't think it is in the public domain unfortunately, I saw it in 'The Manual' (FRPP).

FRPP said:
Area of validity

On services operated by:

  • c2c
  • Chiltern Railways
  • East Midlands Trains (only on flows where there is a GR3 &GR4 fare)
  • First Capital Connect
  • First Great Western
  • First Scotrail (only on flows where there is a GR3 & GR4 fare)
  • London Midland
  • National Express East Anglia (except Stansted Express services)
  • SouthEastern
  • Southern
  • South West Trains


If the original ticket had been correctly printed "NOT EMT" then the OP may have realized what happened.

The ticket is correctly printed 'Any Permitted', it is the discount that is restricted, not the ticket (see NCoC Condition 12).
 

b0b

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I don't think it is in the public domain unfortunately, I saw it in 'The Manual' (FRPP).

if its not in the public domain, I can't see how its part of the contract and therefore I can't see how the ticket can not be valid.


The ticket is correctly printed 'Any Permitted', it is the discount that is restricted, not the ticket (see NCoC Condition 12).

That seems a mighty obscure technicality - especially in the case of the OP, in that its the "wrong kind of groupsave". The ticket is restricted from certain operators, I think it should show the operator restriction on the ticket.
 

yorkie

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The ticket is valid on any train operating company unless it is stated on the ticket.

Not in a leaflet. ON THE TICKET.

If the OP doesn't mind media attention, he may be doing us all a favour if he brings this to the attention of the media. If so, please ask us for some input and to help the media contacts understand the issues and get a good story out.

EMT deserve awful publicity for this.
 

Ferret

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The ticket is valid on any train operating company unless it is stated on the ticket.

Not in a leaflet. ON THE TICKET.

If the OP doesn't mind media attention, he may be doing us all a favour if he brings this to the attention of the media. If so, please ask us for some input and to help the media contacts understand the issues and get a good story out.

EMT deserve awful publicity for this.


Hmmmm, EMT are indeed in the wrong on this one, as are FCC. I'm looking forward to hearing what comes of any complaint the OP makes - a PF was nothing like the correct way of resolving the matter, and EMT owe you a nice apology.

As for the issue of Groupsave validity in general, we've proved categorically that from a legal standpoint, it doesn't need to say on the ticket 'route not XC' or whatever, and I really think it's time everyone moved on and accepted that fact! And yes, the Groupsave leaflet is relevant - condition 1c says so.
 
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Hi Everyone

Thanks again for all your comments.

And Yorkie he is a she!!

Just to clarify I showed the ticket person my Network Railcard and asked for 3 tickets to London St Pancras including tube fair. He at no time said to me that the tickets I had been sold were only for use on certain trains as I certainly wouldn't have bought them in the first place as I usually board the first train I can get onto and if a fast one all the better. Also, I had no idea what the GPS-3 even meant until they told me at St Pancras, and the most annoying thing is that the price diffence between the 'right' and 'wrong' tickets is negligible. What I found dispicable was the way that they just expected us to come up with £135.00 and the fact that you couldn't reason with the 'Customer Services' manager he just kept repeating himself over and over saying I should have checked their T&C's and he wasn't responsible and couldn't comment on the staff at Bedford as they were employed by FCC, not EMT, although they are selling EMT tickets. Where can you check these T&C's because they are not on view at the station and does anybody check these online, where presumably they are somewhere, before they go on a trip....errrrmmm I don't think so. The bloke was a complete a***hole...and he threatened to call the police when I told him so!!! Which I wanted him to do as I just wanted someone to have some sort of common sense, but of course in the end he didn't, we were taking my son out for a trip before he went back to Uni and it spoiled the whole day. In all the times I have travelled by train the staff have always been helpful and happy to help, this has really put me off going anywhere by train as I'm now paranoid about having the right tickets and having to check eveything.

In response to another thread I was very tempted to go to the media but not sure how to go about it really.

If someone could help with a final thing - do you think we should just explain everything that happened in our defence on the penalty notice as the reason why we contest it or is there other things we should point out?

And thank you all again for your help and knowledge, very much appreciated.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think it is quite possible the clerk had no idea that they gave you a GR3 fare.

My reasoning is that when I entered three Network Railcard returns from Bedford to London into my Fastis machine at work, it listed both the fares, but crutially the GR3 fare was the first fare. If I was just issueing tickets to people in a long queue (as I am sure those at Bedford do), it would be very easy for me to miss something as small as that.

Not that it helps you particularly, but hopefully it might help you understand why the clerk might have said nothing or given you no choice in the matter.

When I worked for Thameslink (FCC), but not in Bedford, it was rare to sell tickets for three people together on a Railcard, so this might make the clerk less aware of it happening aswell.
 

Bedpan

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Where can you check these T&C's because they are not on view at the station and does anybody check these online, where presumably they are somewhere, before they go on a trip

Well, if I happened to be travelling from Bedford without a network card, I suppose I might, if I was feeling particularly prudent, check the validity of Groupsave on www.nationalrail.co.uk. If I did that, I would learn for instance that they were not valid on some routes, that they were not valid on Stansted Express for instance, and even that there are some trains on First Great Western that it cannot be used on. It confirms that East Midlands Trains is one of the companies operating Groupsave; nowhere does it indicate that the tickets are not valid on some of their trains. So....if I was travelling from Bedford I would not hesitate to get on an EMT service.

In your case, of course, you have a network card and wanted tickets with a network card discount, so why on earth should you be expected to bother to check the terms and conditions for Groupsave tickets?

the most annoying thing is that the price diffence between the 'right' and 'wrong' tickets is negligible.

This confuses me - as far as I can see (and Yorkie and otheres on this site are ticketing experts and I am just a bloke who happens to be interested in railways) the price you paid - £38.55 - is the price for 3 super off peak travelocards with Network Railcard discounts. The Groupsave scheme lets 3 or 4 people travel for the price of 2 ordinary tickets. According to both the national rail site and the FCC site, a super off peak travelcard from Bedford is £19.50 so I would have thought that the fare for 3 groupsave tickets should be twice this ie £39. The bottom line is, if you paid £38.55 there isn't a negligible price difference, there is no difference at all.
In response to another thread I was very tempted to go to the media but not sure how to go about it really.

You could always try the JVS Consumer Program (Jonathan Vernon Smith) on BBC Three Counties Radio. I'm listening to it now! 08459 455555 or 01582 637400.

I don't know about the answer to your last question. I personally don't have any faith in the penalty fares appeals process and if they do refund your money, I guess that they will not do anything about the same problem happening to somebody else in the future.
 

Greenback

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Just to clarify I showed the ticket person my Network Railcard and asked for 3 tickets to London St Pancras including tube fair. He at no time said to me that the tickets I had been sold were only for use on certain trains as I certainly wouldn't have bought them in the first place as I usually board the first train I can get onto and if a fast one all the better. Also, I had no idea what the GPS-3 even meant until they told me at St Pancras, and the most annoying thing is that the price diffence between the 'right' and 'wrong' tickets is negligible. What I found dispicable was the way that they just expected us to come up with £135.00 and the fact that you couldn't reason with the 'Customer Services' manager he just kept repeating himself over and over saying I should have checked their T&C's and he wasn't responsible and couldn't comment on the staff at Bedford as they were employed by FCC, not EMT, although they are selling EMT tickets. Where can you check these T&C's because they are not on view at the station and does anybody check these online, where presumably they are somewhere, before they go on a trip....errrrmmm I don't think so. The bloke was a complete a***hole...and he threatened to call the police when I told him so!!! Which I wanted him to do as I just wanted someone to have some sort of common sense, but of course in the end he didn't, we were taking my son out for a trip before he went back to Uni and it spoiled the whole day. In all the times I have travelled by train the staff have always been helpful and happy to help, this has really put me off going anywhere by train as I'm now paranoid about having the right tickets and having to check eveything.

In response to another thread I was very tempted to go to the media but not sure how to go about it really.

If someone could help with a final thing - do you think we should just explain everything that happened in our defence on the penalty notice as the reason why we contest it or is there other things we should point out?

And thank you all again for your help and knowledge, very much appreciated.

I would set out everything that happened and then send the correspondence to the appeals body, and also copies to both EMT and FCC as a formal complaint.

Do they seriously expect everyone to check the terms and condition of tickets before they go and buy one at the station? Such arrant nonsense should be challenged through the media and Passenger Focus if EMT don't provide a full apology and ensure that their staff are briefed not to spout this sort of utter drivel!
 

ainsworth74

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Do they seriously expect everyone to check the terms and condition of tickets before they go and buy one at the station?

I don't think its unreasonable to expect a passenger to check the terms and conditions. What is unreasonable is printing restriction codes on tickets and then not giving the passenger anyway of checking those restriction codes but still charging the passenger should they get it wrong! Of course one of my favourite things about tickets is the Validity: See Restrictions section. Where exactly should I go to see these restrictions?
 

Greenback

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How can the passenger check T&C's if they don't know what ticket they are going to get? In this example the OP wanted the cheapest tickets to London with a Network Card. They may have indeed checked this out, but they didn't get that particular ticket anyway! So it is a ridiculous statement for a so called manager to make!

'You've got a groupsave'
'Have I? I didn't want one, and I didn't ask for one!'
'You should have checked the terms and conditions'
'What, for a ticket I've never heard of, and one that I didn't want to buy?'
'It clearly says GR-3 on the ticket'
'And what exactly is that supposed to eman, and how am I supposed to know?'
'Ask a member of staff'
'It wa smember of staff that gave me this ****** thing that you now expect me to pay £135 for having'
'You should have checked the terms and conditions'

Honestly, John Cleese couldn't have made it worse in Fawlty Towers.
 
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