Bedford to London: asked for Network Railcard discount and got GroupSave which wasn't accepted

[dancinbird2009]

Can someone advise me on this please? Myself, my partner and my 20 year old son travelled from Bedford to St Pancras on a Saturday a couple of weeks ago.

I have a network rail card so I showed this to the ticket office and asked for 3 tickets to London including tube.

We boarded the next train to St Pancras which happened to be an East Midlands fast train. When we arrived at St Pancras we showed our tickets and were instantly pulled to one side for having the wrong tickets and told to pay a £45 fine EACH or get on the next Thameslink train back to Bedford!

It transpires that I had been sold GRP-3 tickets, this was pointed out by the ticket collector at St Pancras, I had not at ANY time been advised of this at Bedford, this apparently means that you cannot travel on an East Midlands train only a Thameslink train, again something I was not advised of at Bedford.

We could not get the train back to Bedford as I am a diabetic and coeliac (so have to eat at a certain time and can only eat certain foods)and as it was 12.45pm, coming up to my lunchtime, the journey back being 1hr 10mins and so we would arrive way past the time I would need to eat by. We did not have the £135 that was being demanded so their answer was to issue us with Penalty Fare notices.

Nobody was willing to help as Bedford station is a Thameslink station and we had arrived on the East Midlands platform with East Midlands employees who cannot comment on what the ticket people are selling at Bedford in the way of tickets as they are not employed by East Midlands! On inspecting the Penalty notices I noticed that they were signed by the East Midlands manager as having verified our details via DVLA - this is not true as none of us had our driving licences - and also required our signatures, which we were not asked for so the Penalty Notices have not been signed, Does anyone know if these are valid because of these discrepancies?

Also, I intend to vigorously contest these as I was not advised of a) what tickets I had been sold and b) the restrictions on these tickets as I would have just paid an extra £2 or £3 each to get the normal tickets.

Any advice would be appreciated. HELP!!!

 

[mumrar]

I noticed that they were signed by the East Midlands manager as having verified our details via DVLA - this is not true as none of us had our driving licences - and also required our signatures, which we were not asked for so the Penalty Notices have not been signed, Does anyone know if these are valid becuase of these descrepancies?

Firstly, sorry for you bad experience which has resulted from most likely poor communication of information from the ticket issuing staff at Bedford.

If you have not signed the penalty fares notices where the customer signature goes, then I am 99% sure that the notice is invalid, regardless of the untruth about how they verified your ID. In order to use a DVLA license for name or address verification they would need to record your driver number as proof the license was present for ID. Bearing all that in mind it seems that the penalty fares will be void, so you may not wish to complain about Bedford in writing, which could drop you straight back in it (your word against issuing staff scenario)

 

[b0b]

If you have the tickets still, can you scan them in or copy what they say EXACTLY to the thread. It sounds like it really sucks. I can't understand the advice to travel back to Bedford immediately though.

Does the ticket say "FCC ONLY" on it?

 

[Zoe]

I really don't think we should be encouraging people to scan tickets and upload images of them.

 

[b0b]

I really don't think we should be encouraging people to scan tickets and upload images of them.

why not? its not as if it contains any personal information, unless the ticket seller at Bedford is going to look up the ticket number to prepare his defence.

 

[clagmonster]

This seems very strange to me as EMT participate in the Groupsave scheme. Please could you confirm what is printed in the route field of the original tickets? Please could you also confirm which boc on the PFN was ticked as the reason for issue?

 

[wibble]

This seems very strange to me as EMT participate in the Groupsave scheme. Please could you confirm what is printed in the route field of the original tickets? Please could you also confirm which boc on the PFN was ticked as the reason for issue?

EMT have their own GroupSave product which is quota controlled.

 

[transportphoto]

Looking at AT-NFM7 for Bedford (0410) to London Zones 1-6 (0035) with discount GS3 for three adults travelling together.

As it was a Saturday I suspect you will have been sold:

WRE   -  SUP OFFPK DAYTC              FCC
00000 -  ANY PERMITTED   
Non-standard discounts apply
   3 Adults   @£    12.85  =  £    38.55
                              __________
                              £    38.55

Standard Class Single

Although this fare is set by FCC, the routing is '00000 - ANY PERMITTED', so it is valid via any permitted route.
Interesting that the agent sold you the GS3 ticket instead of the NEW discount, did you present all three railcards? (there is no differece in fares)

I personally think that the PF's have been issued incorrectly, EM & FCC both partake in the GS scheme, yo were travelling via a permitted route (or in this case on a direct train).

 

[Mike395]

Not sure on the legitimacy of it, but I have bought Groupsave tickets from Bedford many times before, and the routing is Any Permitted, however the ticket office staff have always advised us it is only valid on FCC services. In retrospect, surely unless 'FCC Only' is marked on the ticket (which I've only ever seen on summer promotional fares on the Bedford-Brighton route) EMT staff can do nothing about it, and it's their problem to sort out with EMT?

Just my 2p

 

[Ferret]

To save Yorkie the bother of copy and pasting a PM I sent him earlier, even if the tickets were not valid on the EMT service; if it's clear that the error lies with ticket office staff then the tickets should be withdrawn and TI reports submitted so that the lost revenue can be recouped! I'd be sending EMT an absolute rocket if I was the OP asking why their staff are incapable of doing this?

 

[clagmonster]

EMT have their own GroupSave product which is quota controlled.

Not according to this page: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr354fdc0a0400020101fea1769fbf60/details.html
It is the same schemeas other operators use, albeit on some route tickets are issued in a different way.

 

[scotsman]

Sorry to say this, but I believe the error actually lies with the passenger for not ensuring that their ticket is correct (ridiculous as it sounds).

 

[EM2]

I know that EMT stopped accepting GroupSave between STP AND Bedford some time ago and having checked EMT's website to replicate this journey (three adults, Saturday, Newtwork Card), a GroupSave fare isn't offered.
However, IMO, that does NOT absolve the issuing station of blame. They should have explained any restrictions to the customer.

 

[jkdd77]

This link: http://www.nationalexpresseastanglia.com/offers/groupsave
"8. Excess fares may be payable by the Group if restrictions are broken."

implies that use of a Groupsave ticket on services when it is not valid [other than by way of TOC restriction actually stated on the ticket as per Condition 10] is only liable to an excess fare, not a penalty fare.

This is supported by Condition 12(a) of the NRCOC, and by the Penalty Fares Regulations stating that passengers are not liable to pay penalty fares when they are entitled to pay an excess fare.

https://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=6
Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

I think there are very strong grounds for appeal here.

 

[mumrar]

Interesting stuff, it seems that pretty much everything that could be done wrong, has been. It certainly seems that the PF's are invalid 'if' the customer hasn't signed them, together with the false ID quoted on the PF. I cannot answer all of the specific shenanigans on who does or does not accept Groupsave, but as stated in a different thread, the groupsave is a discount, not a ticket type, therefore the tickets do not need to display FCC only.

I don't think the customer can be too much to blame, although hard and fast they say you should check before you walk off. The two options used by EMT staff should have been to excess the tickets, or withdraw them for investigation via TIR system.

 

[MikeWh]

Sorry to say this, but I believe the error actually lies with the passenger for not ensuring that their ticket is correct (ridiculous as it sounds).

This is quite dodgy really. Is the customer expected to know the difference between two 3-5 letter codes printed on the ticket? In all other respects the tickets will look the same (price, origin, destination, date, etc etc etc). I really don't think that the railway has a leg to stand on here. As a rail enthusiast I'd know the difference, but an occasional traveller who has asked for a ticket and been charged what he expected to be charged for a ticket that contains all the details he expects?

Also, did the OP explain his medical condition to the staff at St Pancras? If yes, then I would seriously consider contacting BBC London News who may well want to heap embarassment on all concerned over this sorry affair.

 

[t0ffeeman]

I'd just have caught an FCC train back to Kentish Town and disappeared from there...

 

[b0b]

I'd just have caught an FCC train back to Kentish Town and disappeared from there...

which is kind of hard to do if you're not being allowed to exit from the EMT platforms...

 

[Mojo]

On Saturdays FCC trains depart from the "high level" platform 1 so it is rather unfortunate that:
a - the passengers did not claim to have come off the FCC service
b - the passengers did not walk out the wide open gate which is open for FCC passengers travelling on Oyster PAYG

 

[MikeWh]

I'd just have caught an FCC train back to Kentish Town and disappeared from there...

which is kind of hard to do if you're not being allowed to exit from the EMT platforms...

On Saturdays FCC trains depart from the "high level" platform 1 so it is rather unfortunate that:
a - the passengers did not claim to have come off the FCC service
b - the passengers did not walk out the wide open gate which is open for FCC passengers travelling on Oyster PAYG

If the EMT staff had escorted the passengers to the next Bedford service it is likely that the first stop would have been St Albans. Given the circumstances outlined by the OP, that would almost certainly have been just as useless.

However, this thread has reminded me of a discussion about a month ago on a very similar topic. Is there any possibility that the fault actually lies with the software in the machine in the ticket office at Bedford? Is it possible that it's doing the same thing as the NRES system does? Is there anyone near Bedford who could go along and find out?

 

[RJ]

Not sure on the legitimacy of it, but I have bought Groupsave tickets from Bedford many times before, and the routing is Any Permitted, however the ticket office staff have always advised us it is only valid on FCC services. In retrospect, surely unless 'FCC Only' is marked on the ticket (which I've only ever seen on summer promotional fares on the Bedford-Brighton route) EMT staff can do nothing about it, and it's their problem to sort out with EMT?

Just my 2p

It wouldn't show in the routing, it shows where the railcard discount would normally be displayed.

 

[scotsman]

This is quite dodgy really. Is the customer expected to know the difference between two 3-5 letter codes printed on the ticket? In all other respects the tickets will look the same (price, origin, destination, date, etc etc etc). I really don't think that the railway has a leg to stand on here. As a rail enthusiast I'd know the difference, but an occasional traveller who has asked for a ticket and been charged what he expected to be charged for a ticket that contains all the details he expects?

Sorry, badly made statement. What I mean is, the TOCs expect them to do this, even when the passenger expects the staff to get it right (and it doesn't all the time) - but this is not within reason.

If it said ROUTE: NOT XC or whatever, then fair enough - the passenger should have read it.

 

[12CSVT]

Sorry, badly made statement. What I mean is, the TOCs expect them to do this, even when the passenger expects the staff to get it right (and it doesn't all the time) - but this is not within reason.

If it said ROUTE: NOT XC or whatever, then fair enough - the passenger should have read it.

How many passengers would understand what 'Route Not XC' actually means if it wasn't pointed out to them, especially those who only use the train occasionally ?

 

[Bedpan]

As the OP had a Network railcard the fare should have been the more or less the same whether they were issurd with GPS-3 or NSE - lookong at the National rail website £38.55 with a network card or £39 with Groupsave (2X£19.50). So they have been overcharged £0.45 if they have been sold Groupsave tickets. Now if that was the other way round, they would have been taken to the cleaners in all probability.....

The fares quoted though are for super off peak London Travelcards which are available at weekends and give at least an extra 20% off CDR fares at weekends. The question is, are these tickets available for travel only on FCC or can they be used on EMT as well? The impression I get is that they are only valid on FCC trains, but surely only an excess should be payable.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Super off-peak travelcards are 'rte Any permitted' and valid on EMT. Groupsave is only valid on EMT on flows where a GR3 or GR4 fare exists (Bedford to London does not have one - Groupsave is a discount for FCC).

The staff at Bedford ticket office should (a) have been aware of that and (b) have told the op about it (giving them the choice of travel by EMT or FCC), we all make mistakes though and this could have been one mind you.

There is an expectation that passengers make sure they have the right ticket for their journey (in the NCoC), particularly in Penalty Fares Scheme areas, but the selling staff (if the ticket was bought from the ticket office) should be making sure, as best as they reasonably can, that they issue a ticket that is suitable for the passenger's journey.

At the end of the day the average passenger can only check with the staff member (or one of their colleagues) that it is valid. What else can they reasonably do?

 

[transportphoto]

As the OP had a Network railcard the fare should have been the more or less the same whether they were issurd with GPS-3 or NSE - lookong at the National rail website £38.55 with a network card or £39 with Groupsave (2X£19.50). So they have been overcharged £0.45 if they have been sold Groupsave tickets.

No, both of the fares are at £38.55

the only reason I can see that they issued GS3 not the requested NEW ones is that not all of / no railcards were presented to th clerk.

This is similar to the XC argument we had recently.

 

[philjo]

No, both of the fares are at £38.55

the only reason I can see that they issued GS3 not the requested NEW ones is that not all of / no railcards were presented to th clerk.

As it is a Network card, up to 4 adults (plus 4 children) can get the discount on the same card (when travelling with the named cardholder), so presumably they only had one card to show.

 

[Greenback]

The Super off-peak travelcards are 'rte Any permitted' and valid on EMT. Groupsave is only valid on EMT on flows where a GR3 or GR4 fare exists (Bedford to London does not have one - Groupsave is a discount for FCC).

The staff at Bedford ticket office should (a) have been aware of that and (b) have told the op about it (giving them the choice of travel by EMT or FCC), we all make mistakes though and this could have been one mind you.

There is an expectation that passengers make sure they have the right ticket for their journey (in the NCoC), particularly in Penalty Fares Scheme areas, but the selling staff (if the ticket was bought from the ticket office) should be making sure, as best as they reasonably can, that they issue a ticket that is suitable for the passenger's journey.

At the end of the day the average passenger can only check with the staff member (or one of their colleagues) that it is valid. What else can they reasonably do?

Yes, there seems little the passenger could do in this case, as it looks like it was a mistake on the part of the ticklet office staff member at Bedford.

Interestingly, it seems that if the passenger makes a mistake, they receive a PF, and if the staff make a mistake, the passenger receives a PF! We all make mistakes, HHF, I agree, but it always sems to be the fault of the passneger, implciitly or otherwise, according to 'the railway' and it's legislation! And, of course, if it comes down to it, it's just the customer's word against the staff members to boot!

I hope the OP is able to get the problem sorted out. It appears to have been a bit of a shambles all round, from booking office to gateline.

 

[asylumxl]

EMT doesn't accept them. They declare this usually just before the train departs. It's a load of bollocks but seems they get away with what they like.

 

[Greenback]

I am not a big fan of EMT or their PF operations!