‘Deteriorating’ Cambridgeshire guided busway may need to be ripped up

[jonty14]

maybe the public did want the railway re-instated... but would it have been cost effective?

the truth is that most guided busways so far have been short sections to give buses a quick way through traffic bottlenecks (Crawley, Ispwich, Edinburgh)

so far the only 2 operational busways that cover ground that could be covered by rail are the cambridge and luton ones.

In the case of cambridge, being a deeply rural area albeit with large commuter flows I doubt there would ever be the passenger numbers to make it a viable rail route. As for luton all that would've been feasible as a rail route is a detached shuttle due to the layout and topography of the junction with the main line. It would've cost millions just to re-align and rebuild the junction.

I am sure (or would hope) that the councils did their due diligence to cost out all the options against projected passenger flows.

To castigate the busway option as cheap and nasty shows that you have a natural bias towards rail.... probably rail or nothing.... I wonder what the passengers would say given the option of rail or nothing? I'm sure they wouldn't choose "nothing"

As I said above the system used in luton and cambridge has worked well in other parts of the world... so the problem isn't the system or idea of busways in use.... it is the poor execution in the construction..

all a guided busway is is a rubber tyred tram.... seeing as though Paris has managed for years with rubber tyred trains I don't see why people are so anti busway when the only other viable option is "nothing at all"

Er this is a rail forum so bias is allowed towards railways.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I stand corrected on when the line closed to passenger traffic. However I do object to the slanderous comment you make about my views.

I have already stated in previous posts that I believe in horses for courses, but I WILL defend busways against the "rail at any cost" lobbyists such as yourself!

The original intention of this thread was to discuss what has gone so wrong with this busway that it needs remedial work already.

We fortunately live in a democracy. This means we elect politicians at both a local and national level. We then have to trust that they will use due diligence when taking decisions.

Whatever OUR views, the politicians in this case decided that a GUIDED BUSWAY would serve the needs of their residents better than a light or heavy rail solution.

Just because this particular busway has continually needed remedial work since being built does NOT make busways a flawed concept. ALL infrastructure needs maintenance and repair to keep it running at A1 condition.

Anyone who argues that the problems with the Cambridgeshire Busway's construction shows that busways are flawed has to then argue that RAILWAYS are also a flawed solution.... or have you forgotten what happened after the Hatfield crash when huge chunks of the rail network ground to a halt when it was discovered that the rails were full of cracks... perhaps at that point we should have ripped up all the rails and turned them into motorways? I think not!

Again this is a rail forum. If you are anti rail go on a bus forum and stop being provocative to rail supporters.

 

[radamfi]

If that is the case, speaking as one who resides exterior to the TfGM controlled empire, why have companies such as Stagecoach invested (in the TfGM area) so much money into very large fleets of brand new buses that are less polluting than were used in traffic in previous years?

What's the relevance of TfGM? Apart from a fast dwindling pot for subsidised services, TfGM has almost no say in local buses, at least for the moment.

Obviously old buses need to be replaced. Technology moves on, so the new buses are going to be cleaner, almost by default.

 

[Robertj21a]

Er this is a rail forum so bias is allowed towards railways.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Again this is a rail forum. If you are anti rail go on a bus forum and stop being provocative to rail supporters.

Errr.....this is headed 'Bus UK Forum'.....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wow, this has turned (in a Mrs Merton style) into a heated debate!!

Surely, the first thing is to agree that most people on this board are actually pro public transport. That doesn't make us typical - most people are either pro-car or are just apathetic.

Next thing is when looking at the solution to understand what the problem is/was. Now, I don't claim to know Cambridgeshire well, but my understanding was that it was two fold (albeit intrinsically linked):

1 - the ever increasing traffic on the A14 especially in peaks heading towards Cambridge
2 - the heavy traffic problems on the routes heading into the city from the West

Now, the potential solutions were to build your way out of it by widening the A14 but as we know, that doesn't solve the problem but merely kicks the can down the street. More importantly, it only has an impact on the A14 but unless you believe that any form of road building would be possible in Cambridge, it would merely exacerbate the problem.

You could reinstate the train but that fails on a number of scores. Firstly, the fact that the train doesn't serve the main traffic objective (i.e. the city centre) is by far the biggest issue. Also, there's the question whether there would be the ability to run a high enough frequency (financially more than technically) to make the service attractive for the target passengers? Thirdly, the cost of the project - the relatively straightforward reopening of the Alloa line was £85m (much more than CastIron's estimate of £51m for Cambridgeshire) and it should be noted, has also had major remedial works carried out on it.

Then there's the option of a tram. This would enable the penetration of the city centre and high frequency. However, the cost of that would be astronomically high.

That really left the busway as an option. Now, as has been stated, if you'd have had a standard road with CCTV to dissuade car users, then you have three problems. One is the fear that a change of administration will simply open it up to car users - surely the lesson of the Tory part of the coalition has been the use of "needs must" to excuse dogmatic pursuit of public spending cuts. Hence, a guided busway stops that. Similarly, it has a sort of kudos (it feels special and different) to help prise people out of their metal boxes. Thirdly, it has the flexibility to deviate and be extended at either end without the necessity for passengers to change, which makes it more attractive.

It is, at the end of the day, horses for courses. I'm pro-public transport whether it be bus, tram, train or ferry! We cannot be dogmatic and merely say "bus is best" any more than "rail is best". FWIW, I think Borders Rail is the most appropriate way forward to solve the issues of the A7 but rail to solve the issues on the A14. Not in my humble, and I hope, balanced view!

 

[glbotu]

Wow, this has turned (in a Mrs Merton style) into a heated debate!!

Surely, the first thing is to agree that most people on this board are actually pro public transport. That doesn't make us typical - most people are either pro-car or are just apathetic.

Next thing is when looking at the solution to understand what the problem is/was. Now, I don't claim to know Cambridgeshire well, but my understanding was that it was two fold (albeit intrinsically linked):

1 - the ever increasing traffic on the A14 especially in peaks heading towards Cambridge
2 - the heavy traffic problems on the routes heading into the city from the West

Now, the potential solutions were to build your way out of it by widening the A14 but as we know, that doesn't solve the problem but merely kicks the can down the street. More importantly, it only has an impact on the A14 but unless you believe that any form of road building would be possible in Cambridge, it would merely exacerbate the problem.

You could reinstate the train but that fails on a number of scores. Firstly, the fact that the train doesn't serve the main traffic objective (i.e. the city centre) is by far the biggest issue. Also, there's the question whether there would be the ability to run a high enough frequency (financially more than technically) to make the service attractive for the target passengers? Thirdly, the cost of the project - the relatively straightforward reopening of the Alloa line was £85m (much more than CastIron's estimate of £51m for Cambridgeshire) and it should be noted, has also had major remedial works carried out on it.

Then there's the option of a tram. This would enable the penetration of the city centre and high frequency. However, the cost of that would be astronomically high.

That really left the busway as an option. Now, as has been stated, if you'd have had a standard road with CCTV to dissuade car users, then you have three problems. One is the fear that a change of administration will simply open it up to car users - surely the lesson of the Tory part of the coalition has been the use of "needs must" to excuse dogmatic pursuit of public spending cuts. Hence, a guided busway stops that. Similarly, it has a sort of kudos (it feels special and different) to help prise people out of their metal boxes. Thirdly, it has the flexibility to deviate and be extended at either end without the necessity for passengers to change, which makes it more attractive.

It is, at the end of the day, horses for courses. I'm pro-public transport whether it be bus, tram, train or ferry! We cannot be dogmatic and merely say "bus is best" any more than "rail is best". FWIW, I think Borders Rail is the most appropriate way forward to solve the issues of the A7 but rail to solve the issues on the A14. Not in my humble, and I hope, balanced view!

So, your analysis is reasonably spot-on but you make 2 mistakes.

1. The science park traffic is much worse than city-centre traffic for Cambridge (except on Saturdays, when the reverse is true - Cambridge on a Saturday is a nightmare). The busway is phenomenal at getting people off the A14 when going to work at the science park. This is where the busway is at its strongest. For this flow, one might argue, a railway could do an almost as good job, however it doesn't for getting people from the rest of Cambridge to the Science Park, especially the ever increasing Trumpington area. The city-centre traffic is actually quite well handled by the Park + Ride buses.

2. The problem with an on-street tram is less its cost, more its cost-benefit. Cambridge, due to its historic nature has no-where to send a tram that would be any better than a bus (unless you fancy ploughing through Jesus and Sydney Sussex Colleges, not to mention half of Chesterton), unless you want to go for the occasionally mooted "Cambridge Underground", at which point, yes, cost would be your problem.

***I think it was the 80s, I could be wrong.

 

[talltim]

Errr.....this is headed 'Bus UK Forum'.....

So it is!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So, your analysis is reasonably spot-on but you make 2 mistakes.

1. The science park traffic is much worse than city-centre traffic for Cambridge (except on Saturdays, when the reverse is true - Cambridge on a Saturday is a nightmare). The busway is phenomenal at getting people off the A14 when going to work at the science park. This is where the busway is at its strongest. For this flow, one might argue, a railway could do an almost as good job, however it doesn't for getting people from the rest of Cambridge to the Science Park, especially the ever increasing Trumpington area. The city-centre traffic is actually quite well handled by the Park + Ride buses.

2. The problem with an on-street tram is less its cost, more its cost-benefit. Cambridge, due to its historic nature has no-where to send a tram that would be any better than a bus (unless you fancy ploughing through Jesus and Sydney Sussex Colleges, not to mention half of Chesterton), unless you want to go for the occasionally mooted "Cambridge Underground", at which point, yes, cost would be your problem.

***I think it was the 80s, I could be wrong.

Thanks for the added info - much appreciated. As I say, I'm not so familiar with Cambridge as others like yourself.

I was aware that the Science Park is a very important a traffic objective (and is destined to grow further) but not the road infrastructure and congestion around it. Some will undoubtedly point at similar European historic cities with trams but really, the cost of it kills it.

Again, FWIW, I've experienced the busway twice and appreciate the vision of it, and enjoyed my experience. I think the actual concept is sound - sadly, it looks like the execution of it in the construction by BAM Nuttall is the issue!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, FWIW, I've experienced the busway twice and appreciate the vision of it, and enjoyed my experience. I think the actual concept is sound - sadly, it looks like the execution of it in the construction by BAM Nuttall is the issue!!

I've been on it a couple of times, once for the hell of it and once using it as a genuine park and ride (the X5 doesn't run late enough to do an evening out in Cambridge, sadly, as that would have been my preference if it did). It has a nice country branch line feel to it, and does the job quite effectively, to be fair to it.

I'd imagine it could be lumped in with the Edinburgh tram as "good idea, terrible execution" - but I'm sure that can be fixed.

 

[jonty14]

So it is!

Didn't realise that. Sorry. I don't look at the top bit of the page on my phone. I zoom in to quickly!