£400 fine!!!

[matthew smith]

First time i have posted in this forum, hopefully im in the right place Looking for some guidance/advice...

I got a train from Stockport to Manchester, was late for the train so jumped straight on. When i got to Manchester the train staff stopped me and i was unable to present a ticket. He told me to buy one at the desk, as i went to buy a ticket a transport officer pulled me to the side and questioned me. I did tell him i lost my ticket and that the reason for me not having one, he proceeded to take some details from me. I gave him my home address as i am currently a student living in Sheffield and move house just about every year. Shortly after that my parents moved from the home address and into a new place, they still own the old house (rent it out). During this time letters have been sent to my old home address from the Greater Manchester accounts and enforcement unit, due to my parents no longer living in the house and me living in Sheffield i have not received any letters and a £3 fine is now over £400!!

I rang the enquires number straight away and was told i needed to make a statutory deceleration with my local court.

I am not looking to get rid of the fine as i am guilty in that sense, but i was unaware of any letters so i shouldnt have to pay £400?!? Any advice would be great, let me know if you need anymore details.

 

[najaB]

I am not looking to get rid of the fine as i am guilty in that sense, but i was unaware of any letters so i shouldnt have to pay £400?!

If you were completely unaware of any court proceedings then...

I rang the enquires number straight away and was told i needed to make a statutory deceleration with my local court.

Is the correct advice.

 

[matthew smith]

i only found out this week, which i'm still unsure how they even got my actual address.

 

[Bensonby]

Probably through bailiffs doing credit checks on you in an attempt to trace you to get you to pay up.

 

[matthew smith]

Ok, anything i should be aware of / prepare for at the statutory declaration? Never been involved with anything to do with court so this is new...

 

[thejuggler]

The debt collector will continue sending to the incorrect address until such point as a bailiff visits and is then satisfied the person they are looking for is no longer at that address. A further trace will then be carried out.

This issue (which has lead to hundreds of unknown CCJs on credit records as Court papers haven't been received so its counted as a non defended case) is another serious one which this Government made positive noises about dealing with, but has now kicked into the very long grass.

 

[pemma]

I got a train from Stockport to Manchester, was late for the train so jumped straight on. When i got to Manchester the train staff stopped me and i was unable to present a ticket. He told me to buy one at the desk, as i went to buy a ticket a transport officer pulled me to the side and questioned me.

Out of interest what time of day did you travel. It just sounds a bit strange that you got on to platform 3 or 4 at Stockport without a ticket and 10-15 minutes later there were ticket inspections at Piccadilly taking place. It also might be why you were pulled aside for questioning.

 

[matthew smith]

Around 10am on a Saturday but it was a while ago so i am guessing a little. The inspection was at the gates, i got off the train without being checked but as you may know Manchester doesn't have ticket barriers so when i tried to walk through the doors i was pulled back for not having a ticket.

 

[pemma]

Around 10am on a Saturday but it was a while ago so i am guessing a little. The inspection was at the gates, i got off the train without being checked but as you may know Manchester doesn't have ticket barriers so when i tried to walk through the doors i was pulled back for not having a ticket.

Some platforms at Piccadilly have ticket gates and most of the others have manual checks. Stockport has access to 4 of it's 5 platforms gated (the platform which isn't gated only has departures towards Hazel Grove and Sheffield) so it just seemed surprising you could have started your journey at Stockport and managed to get on a train without a ticket, unless you were travelling very early or latish (then it would have been surprising if the people doing ticket checks at Piccadilly had still been there.)

 

[Haywain]

Some platforms at Piccadilly have ticket gates and most of the others have manual checks. Stockport has access to 4 of it's 5 platforms gated (the platform which isn't gated only has departures towards Hazel Grove and Sheffield) so it just seemed surprising you could have started your journey at Stockport and managed to get on a train without a ticket, unless you were travelling very early or latish (then it would have been surprising if the people doing ticket checks at Piccadilly had still been there.)

I'm not sure that your comments about Stockport are entirely accurate. I have been there a couple of times recently, during the day on Saturdays, and the barriers have been open every time, on both sides of the station.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Ok, anything i should be aware of / prepare for at the statutory declaration? Never been involved with anything to do with court so this is new...

You accept that you were guilty. Call your local court and arrange to go in to make a statutory declaration. The court may only want to deal with the matter on the days that they normally have railway cases listed - this may be weekly, fortnightly or monthly depending on the court.

When you attend court you'll be asked to explain why you didn't know about the case, be honest and you'll be walked through the declaration in court. Most likely you'll then be read the charge and expected to enter a plea, which I would expect to be guilty. The court will then proceed to sentence - expect a fine of 50% of your income, plus costs and charges and the fare avoided.

It's a shame that you didn't get the paperwork as you may have been able to settle out of court for around £80, though that ship has now sailed.

Also - you can always make the declaration quite cheaply at a local solicitors and then send it to court as Signed For post. That saves an immediate trip and ensures that you're within the technical two-week limit to make the declaration; though the court will not enforce it if you have an appointment.

You should not need to be represented in court - that's just additional money you could use for your fine.

 

[matthew smith]

Ok i'm unsure what the confusion is with this? let me know so i can clear it up... when i got on the train at stockport the gates where open... When i got off at Manchester i had to walk through a manual ticket check which had two people on each door checking tickets. At this point i got stopped...

 

[matthew smith]

in reply to puffing devil, i am a student so have no income. The fine when it was first sent to my old address was £3 not £80.

I rang court and arranged a date for my statutory declaration, i can update once i have been to court.

 

[Puffing Devil]

in reply to puffing devil, i am a student so have no income. The fine when it was first sent to my old address was £3 not £80.

I rang court and arranged a date for my statutory declaration, i can update once i have been to court.

If you have no income as a student your income will be assumed to be £120/week.

Assuming that you are given a Band A fine, and plead guilty at the first opportunity, you will be looking at:

Fine = 50% of £120, less 1/3 for the prompt guilty plea: £40
Victim Surcharge: £30
Prosecution Costs: £100 (Estimate - varies by TOC)
Fare Evaded: £3

Total Around £173

The "fine" sent to your old address was not a fine - it may have been an unpaid fare notice, or a letter relating to your stop asking for more information. Without seeing it, I can't comment.

[Edited to correct typo - VS is £30 not £20]

 

[matthew smith]

I've never actually received a letter relating to the original fine. I did recieve a "further steps notice" letter which states"as you have failed to make payment as directed, you are hereby given notice that one or more of these following steps will be taken against you"

 

[Puffing Devil]

The "fine" sent to your old address was not a fine - it may have been an unpaid fare notice, or a letter relating to your stop asking for more information. Without seeing it, I can't comment.

i have not received any letters and a £3 fine is now over £400!!

I've never actually received a letter relating to the original fine.

You did post about a £3 fine. Moot point now.

I did recieve a "further steps notice" letter which states"as you have failed to make payment as directed, you are hereby given notice that one or more of these following steps will be taken against you"

I'm assuming that this is what prompted you to take action? If you've had this for a while you could be out of time for the Statutory Declaration.

 

[matthew smith]

I've already called the court and arranged my statutory declaration and they told me that is was originally a £3 fine.

I was mainly after what to expect from a statutory declaration and if i should prepare for it in anyway.

 

[Puffing Devil]

No court in England would impose a £3 fine. The fact that you have a £400 demand suggests that the matter has been heard in your absence and a fine of £220 imposed, plus associated costs.

There is nothing to prepare for the Stat Dec, other than to arrive on time and be prepared to wait. Turn your phone off before entering the courtroom and the hearing should all be done is less than 10 minutes, with you being around £200 lighter.

 

[TBirdFrank]

Go and see CAB and get some proper advice.

 

[matthew smith]

Yes she also told me on the phone that they had went to court in Bolton in April without me. I still dont understand why i would have to pay £200 seems though i never knew anything about this till this week?

Thanks for your help btw

 

[Haywain]

Go and see CAB and get some proper advice.

The advice being given by Puffing Devil is very good advice, and probably better than would be obtained at a Citizens Advice Bureau.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would agree that the advice provided by Puffing Devil is as good as if not better than any you would get from a Citizens Advice Bureau. Indeed I suspect most would refer you onto a local solicitor firm as I don't think they would be able to deal with it themselves (unless they either a) have a criminal law project funded which most won't or b) have an agreement with a solicitor firm for one of their solicitors to work in Bureau providing x number of appointments per week to CAB clients).

I still dont understand why i would have to pay £200 seems though i never knew anything about this till this week?

Because you're seemingly guilty of a criminal offence. When you discovered that prosecution action was being taken does not make any difference in the eye of the law. There was chance that you could have settled the matter with Northern for around £80 but it almost certain that that chance has now gone as the matter is in the hands of the Courts now.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes she also told me on the phone that they had went to court in Bolton in April without me. I still dont understand why i would have to pay £200 seems though i never knew anything about this till this week?

Because you missed whatever letters were sent to your old address you missed the chance that you had to negotiate an out of court settlement. The TOC thought that you were ignoring them and took the matter to court.

When the matter went to court you did not attend (as you didn't receive your post) and you were found guilty in your absence and an appropriate fine imposed.

You were traced as the court tried to collect the fine. As you did not know about the case you can legitimately reset the court process back to the summons stage. The expectation is that you will answer the charge in court and be sentenced if found (or you plead) guilty.

You have to pay £200, or whatever the penalty decided by the court may be as you have committed a criminal offence by boarding a train without a valid ticket.

There is a very slim chance that the prosecutor may agree to an out of court settlement on the day. When you arrive at court ask who the prosecutor will be in your case and ask to speak to them. When you meet them explain the confusion with your address and apologise for it coming to court. Ask them if they would consider withdrawing the case and settling out of court. It's a chance and you have nothing to lose by asking.

Thanks for your help btw

Thank you.

 

[pemma]

It's a shame that you didn't get the paperwork as you may have been able to settle out of court for around £80, though that ship has now sailed.

in reply to puffing devil, i am a student so have no income. The fine when it was first sent to my old address was £3 not £80.

No court in England would impose a £3 fine.

My interpretation of the posts is Northern were following their procedure correctly and only initially asked for the unpaid fare as it was a first offence. (Northern agreed with TfGM that the £80 out-of-court settlements wouldn't be used for first offences.) However, as the fare went unpaid it went to court.

 

[matthew smith]

Thank you Puffing Devil.

On the day i will speak to the prosecutor and explain my situation, hopefully he settles out of court.

 

[Haywain]

There is a very slim chance that the prosecutor may agree to an out of court settlement on the day. When you arrive at court ask who the prosecutor will be in your case and ask to speak to them. When you meet them explain the confusion with your address and apologise for it coming to court. Ask them if they would consider withdrawing the case and settling out of court. It's a chance and you have nothing to lose by asking.

Genuine question: if the OP makes a statutory declaration at court and pleads guilty, will there be a prosecutor present to negotiate with, or would this option rely on making the statutory declaration at a solicitors office?

I've already called the court and arranged my statutory declaration and they told me that is was originally a £3 fine.

As noted by jcollins above, Northern appear to have originally asked for nothing more than the fare due. As they will now have incurred considerable additional costs there is little chance they will now settle for an amount as low as that.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Genuine question: if the OP makes a statutory declaration at court and pleads guilty, will there be a prosecutor present to negotiate with, or would this option rely on making the statutory declaration at a solicitors office?

It depends...... Some courts will schedule these matters for Statutory Declarations to be heard when the appropriate prosecutor is due to be in court so they can move straight onto a new hearing. In times gone by the matter would be heard then adjourned to the next "Railway Court", though adjournments and delays are frowned on nowadays. As the OP has been given an appointment, I would assume that the railway prosecutor would be in court, otherwise, they would have nobody to prosecute the restarted case.

If the SD is made at a local solicitor the matter would be relisted when the appropriate prosecutor is in court.

 

[island]

Whatever you do, don’t sit on your hands – your statutory declaration must be made within 21 days of you discovering the issues and there are very limited grounds for that time limit being extended.

Edit: I see the OP has an appointment.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Genuine question: if the OP makes a statutory declaration at court and pleads guilty, will there be a prosecutor present to negotiate with, or would this option rely on making the statutory declaration at a solicitors office?

With the ‘fast tracking’ of Statutory Declarations routinely applied now, if Matthew Smith enters a guilty plea when he makes his declaration, the Court will deal with the matter there and then.

Remembering to provide evidence of income, apologising to the Court and TOC and accepting that he was guilty of travelling without first buying a ticket will very substantially reduce the penalty that has been previously imposed.

Pleading ‘not guilty’ will likely see the matter returned to the prosecutor to prepare for trial at a later date when the witness would be called to give evidence.

Not knowing about the letters isn’t a defence to the original action, the TOC and Court both addressed correspondence to the address that the traveller gave with a legitimate expectation that it would be received by him.

I’m not saying this happened in Matthews case, but it isn’t unknown for someone to give an old address intending that they wouldn’t hear anything further, but with traceability being so much improved for Courts enforcement teams these days, Statutory Declarations are pretty common and dealt with promptly wherever possible.

 

[island]

It’s worth being clear that the option to pay £3 is no longer on the table. That would have been the amount payable on the day or within the allotted period.