‘10 bell dispatch’ against a red?

[pompeyfan]

While watching a cross country voyager the other day, it got me wondering, if the guard gave a 1-2 to the driver on the bell whilst there was a red on the end, would the driver be obliged to report this via the usual process in the same way as receiving 2 against a red in ‘normal’ dispatch?

Edit: corrected bell code

 

[Jonfun]

Yes.
(NB for reference it's 1-2 on the bell/buzzer to close doors)

 

[Surreytraveller]

Yes.
(NB for reference it's 1-2 on the bell/buzzer to close doors)

I haven't been rules trained for a number of years now, but it always used to be the case that you could give a signal to 'close doors' even if a signal was at red, although after one SPAD too many we were always told not to. I don't know what the Rule Book says about this now?

 

[tsr]

It’s generally considered bad practice to close power doors against a red signal but there can be exceptions - the most common would be a scenario when you are locking the train out of service (but not yet dispatching it) but it could also end up being a method of last resort if there was a risk to safety from the doors staying open (for example, if the driver had stopped short and released the doors, or if there was an incident of serious disorder on the platform which could spill onto the train).

 

[craigybagel]

Believe it or not, there are two places I sign where the current local instructions are that we technically have to close the doors against a red signal. It's due to change soon though, and it will go back to the norm of only closing the doors after a proceed signal has been obtained.

 

[Jonfun]

There will always be the odd exception covered by local instructions as required, though when dispatching (which is what the OP was asking about) the rulebook states you must not begin the procedure until the signal is clear (or you have authority to pass/a movement authority).

This is of course distinct from other circumstances where you might need to close the doors (eg attaching/detaching, disposing, train too full to fit any more passengers on etc)

Is it the end of the world if it happens? Probably not, as most of the time the driver will spot it and stop the process. There are locations on the network where the driver can't see the signal/off indicator when they're at the stopping mark, however, where it becomes a bit more risky.

 

[clagmonster]

Believe it or not, there are two places I sign where the current local instructions are that we technically have to close the doors against a red signal. It's due to change soon though, and it will go back to the norm of only closing the doors after a proceed signal has been obtained.

Just as a matter of interest, where are they and why if you don't mind me asking. Something I've never come across, curiosity has the better of me.

 

[craigybagel]

Just as a matter of interest, where are they and why if you don't mind me asking. Something I've never come across, curiosity has the better of me.

They're both locations with locally operated level crossings. The current local procedure is to open local door, release other doors, close other doors (against the flashing red signal for the crossing), operate the plunger for the crossing, observe the barriers lower and flashing red light turn white, confirm the white light with the driver, close local door, ready to start.

There is a new procedure coming on a couple of weeks however - which amongst other changes will see the doors closed only after the white light has been obtained.

 

[TheEdge]

Just as a matter of interest, where are they and why if you don't mind me asking. Something I've never come across, curiosity has the better of me.

The Mk3 sets at Liverpool Street are another example. Its been many a year since I actually dispatched one so the timings may be wrong but the doors are locked 30 seconds before booked departure, with the exception of the local door, regardless of signal aspect. With the relatively small throat at Liverpool Street the routes only become available at the last second so the ability to just go when a proceed aspect is displayed is important!

 

[Skie]

Merseyrail close their doors in winter when sat at Bank Hall during the scheduled 5 minute wait there on the early services.

 

[221129]

Merseyrail close their doors in winter when sat at Bank Hall during the scheduled 5 minute wait there on the early services.

That's auto close though not being dispatched.

 

[bionic]

It's not uncommon to close doors if there is to be an extended stand at a red in a station platform and then release them again so the open doors can be closed but released, rather than stuck open. Many units don't have auto-close.

 

[Llanigraham]

They're both locations with locally operated level crossings. The current local procedure is to open local door, release other doors, close other doors (against the flashing red signal for the crossing), operate the plunger for the crossing, observe the barriers lower and flashing red light turn white, confirm the white light with the driver, close local door, ready to start.

There is a new procedure coming on a couple of weeks however - which amongst other changes will see the doors closed only after the white light has been obtained.

Sounds like they are on the Heart of Wales, and I'm guessing Llandovery is one?

 

[Tom Quinne]

You could with 2-1 to close the doors then 6 bells to draw forward towards the red signal.

If 2 bells are given against a red, the driver is required to report this to the signaller/Control it’s classed as a SASAD - Signal given Against Signal at Danger.

Like others have said there are local instructions that require a start against a red (with 6 bells) or signals off the platform where you can give 6 to draw forward (Stapleton Road, Bristol, DN line) is one.

 

[142Pilot]

I've never heard or seen sasad as an acronym.

Have you made that up as it's not in any rulebook or operating handbook that I have seen.

 

[hello]

2 on the Bell, always thought that is train is ready to start not RA

 

[craigybagel]

Sounds like they are on the Heart of Wales, and I'm guessing Llandovery is one?

Yes, and no (I sign the other end of that line). Llandovery may have a slightly different procedure as unlike the locations I sign, it is also a token exchange point.

I've never heard or seen sasad as an acronym.

Have you made that up as it's not in any rulebook or operating handbook that I have seen.

Judging by the locations mentioned, the individual works for GWR. Anecdotally, I've heard they do have some slightly different procedures in this area compared to other TOCs ....

There's 2 locations on my own route card where my own preference is to give 6 rather then 2 if a certain signal is at danger. Technically, the signals concerned aren't defined as starting signals so there's nothing wrong officially in giving 2, but they are close enough to the platform for it to be at best uncomfortable to give 2 against, and there are certain drivers who will refuse to move the train at all under those circumstances. At my Toc we're not supposed to give 6 without discussing it with the driver first so I'll always ask the drivers preferences well before we get to the station (in both cases, there are certain scenario's where it is highly likely the signal will be on and you can prepare for that eventuality in advance). This is not an official thing though, just a courtesy on my part and an extra bit of protection.

 

[Crossover]

That's auto close though not being dispatched.

I don’t think Merseyrail units have door buttons at all so wouldn’t be auto-close

 

[Crossover]

There's 2 locations on my own route card where my own preference is to give 6 rather then 2 if a certain signal is at danger.

I have seen the same done at Newton-le-Willows in the Manchester direction before

 

[Esker-pades]

When travelling on the Far North, they had some codes I couldn't find the meanings for. They were the following:
2+1
2+3
2+1+2 or 3+2

 

[FGW_DID]

You could with 2-1 to close the doors then 6 bells to draw forward towards the red signal.

If 2 bells are given against a red, the driver is required to report this to the signaller/Control it’s classed as a SASAD - Signal given Against Signal at Danger.

Like others have said there are local instructions that require a start against a red (with 6 bells) or signals off the platform where you can give 6 to draw forward (Stapleton Road, Bristol, DN line) is one.

I've never heard or seen sasad as an acronym.

Have you made that up as it's not in any rulebook or operating handbook that I have seen.

Not heard that particular phrase but I have heard SASPAD - Starting Against Signal, Passed at Danger. Where the driver has accepted the bells and moved off, passing a red. If it’s just the dispatcher or guard initiating the dispatch process with the signal at red, i’ve only seen it referred to as a ‘dispatch irregularity’.

 

[michael74]

So I was sitting on a local train to Paiginton at Dawlish Warren last week, waiting for a couple of fast trains going west to pass, as the second HST passed the doors were closed and 2 bells given, the driver slowly took power and crawled to the signal and paused a brief second at the signal (I couldn't quite see what aspect was displayed, but the time from the HST passing to moving off was seconds), Is this because the signal isn't classed as a starting signal as discussed. Thinking about it if you waited for a green aspect then close doors then move off you could be over 1 minute late departing.

Edit: Looking on Google Earth, the signals protecting the junction are a fair distance from the platform so I may have answered my own question.

 

[Jonfun]

There are indeed some locations where a signal is within view but is not a starting signal at the end of the platform (Wavertree Tech Park and Newton le Willows are examples near me), in this case, the train can be dispatched in the normal manner regardless of signal aspect.

 

[TEW]

When travelling on the Far North, they had some codes I couldn't find the meanings for. They were the following:
2+1
2+3
2+1+2 or 3+2

The unusual codes on the Far North Line, and also the West Highland Line, are related to the RETB signalling. There are no physical signals for the guard to check, so the driver uses a buzzer code to inform the guard when the train has authority to proceed.

 

[sw1ller]

I have seen the same done at Newton-le-Willows in the Manchester direction before

Yep, that was the one I was thinking about when reading this thread. I get 3 different methods there.... I’ll either get 2, 6 or the guard will come and ask what I’d prefer. It doesn’t help that 3 depots sign it and all have their own way of doing things.

On a slightly different note, If I’m at a red elsewhere and I hear the doors closing, I’ll open the cab door so it’s impossible to give any bells.

I’ve also had two bells given 3 times to me this week when at a station that needs an RA. It’s so easy to do when the guards getting abuse at the other end and goes into auto pilot.

 

[CC 72100]

There are indeed some locations where a signal is within view but is not a starting signal at the end of the platform (Wavertree Tech Park and Newton le Willows are examples near me), in this case, the train can be dispatched in the normal manner regardless of signal aspect.

Although in similar locations I'm familiar with, some Guards will still give 6 at that location, despite the fact that the signal is not a starting a signal and just under 1/4 of a mile away. I hate 6!

 

[142Pilot]

Yep, that was the one I was thinking about when reading this thread. I get 3 different methods there.... I’ll either get 2, 6 or the guard will come and ask what I’d prefer. It doesn’t help that 3 depots sign it and all have their own way of doing things.

On a slightly different note, If I’m at a red elsewhere and I hear the doors closing, I’ll open the cab door so it’s impossible to give any bells.

I’ve also had two bells given 3 times to me this week when at a station that needs an RA. It’s so easy to do when the guards getting abuse at the other end and goes into auto pilot.

Correct.

I have also given 2 on receiving the ra

2 against a red means me and the guard have a chat, no official reporting dependant on the conversation or the guard.

99% are apologetic. The 1% argued and then wondered why the second time he did it I stopped the train and got it downloaded.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I've never heard or seen sasad as an acronym.

Have you made that up as it's not in any rulebook or operating handbook that I have seen.

It is/was used by GWR.

 

[Tom Quinne]

2 on the Bell, always thought that is train is ready to start not RA

It does yes, but after an incident in the 80s where two were given and taken against a red resulting in a fatal collision.

I’ve always thought and interpretated 2 bells as doors closed and RTS, not go.

But as we are a traincrew I wouldn’t give 2 unless the signal was a proceed aspect, you never know if the driver is switched on.

 

[Skie]

That's auto close though not being dispatched.

Current Merseyrail units don't have anything that fancy. It's just the guards being nice and keeping the cargo toasty.