‘Avanti to stop at-seat service from May 2023’

[steeevooo]

Is there actually any money to be made in on-train catering? My understanding was that, across the board, there was only a minority of service groups where it even breaks even, let alone turns a profit. That being the case, and in the current financial climate, I hardly think it's surprising that catering services are being cut back or removed entirely. That's not to say that the Avanti at-seat system wasn't managed/implemented terribly though!

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there actually any money to be made in on-train catering? My understanding was that, across the board, there was only a minority of service groups where it even breaks even, let alone turns a profit. That being the case, and in the current financial climate, I hardly think it's surprising that catering services are being cut back or removed entirely.

Then you get into the issues of whilst the catering itself is a loss maker does the value added to the overall product of "traveling by long distance train" make up for that? How many passengers might be turned away from the idea that they can't get a drink or snack on-board for four hours? A difficult question to answer!

 

[Skymonster]

I can never get the Avanti Wifi to work and when it does it work…

I’m sure there’s an oxymoron in there somewhere

Seriously, I no longer take on-train catering seriously because (1) it’s overpriced for what it is, (2) it’s unreliable in terms of availability, (3) it’s low quality [I want real coffee not instant from a trolley, or a cold beer rather than something not chilled] and (4) I prefer a wider choice than that usually offered from the limited stock on a trolley. TOCs have to make a choice with catering - either give in and drop it, or do it properly and consistently. If they can’t do the latter, they need to do the former - rather than mess about and effectively push a lot of customers to alternatives that are usually more reliable, better quality and cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there actually any money to be made in on-train catering? My understanding was that, across the board, there was only a minority of service groups where it even breaks even, let alone turns a profit. That being the case, and in the current financial climate, I hardly think it's surprising that catering services are being cut back or removed entirely. That's not to say that the Avanti at-seat system wasn't managed/implemented terribly though!

Generally it only makes money for air travel because the stewards are needed legally and might as well do something. But for an operation like Avanti it's a differentiator - if they end up being the same as LNR why pay more?

Though Avanti have a mix of services - Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester probably don't really need it, you get on with a coffee and probably don't want another. But Glasgow takes 4.5 hours and so it's much more justified. GWR have this similar mix - for Bristol few probably care, for Penzance they very much do.

Hull have made a very odd choice which I wonder if it was union related, i.e. they used to have two staff, now only have one, and that one is refusing, backed by the union, to "do two peoples' jobs" even though this would be relatively easy by making minor changes to the First Class offering, e.g. the tea, coffee and soft drinks being self service and just put out in flasks and a fridge for people to get as they wanted?

 

[jhy44]

Admittedly I am privileged in that I do not have mobility issues, but I always prefer walking to a shop/buffet carriage than waiting for a trolley.

My last two journeys from Truro to Paddington (in Jan and Feb of this year respectively) illustrate this perfectly. Neither had a restaurant car; trolley only.

On the first journey, the Trolley never made it to my carriage at all on the 5 hour 30 minute journey.
Twice I walked the length of the train to find the trolley to plead that they serve me food and drink (as the cafe at Truro station was closed meaning I was unable to buy anything prior to boarding). Both times they refused due to 'health and safety grounds'. I arrived at Paddington famished having eaten nothing all day.

On the second journey, the trolley still hadn't arrived by Bristol Parkway (we were on diversion), i.e. over 3 hours in to the journey. I walked the train and found the trolley in a different carriage and this time the trolley operator had more sense and did indeed serve me. It was not until Reading that the trolley finally made it to my carriage. I was glad I didn't wait.

I understand that it's an annoyance not to have food or drink on a journey of a few hours, but for one of 5 and a half hours it becomes rather an emergency, especially if coming from stations with no provision to purchase drinks or food before boarding.

If GWR can't guarantee the trolley will make it to all coaches, then it is ludicrous for GWR to have a policy banning people being served if they walk to the trolley.
Would be far better to simply park the trolley at the half-way point of the train and then announce that people who want refreshments can find the trolley in Coach 'x'.

Or even install a vending machine as they do on many continental trains. That'd be better than nothing.

When I complained to the on-board staff about the shocking service, they said that GWR are intentionally under-resourcing catering teams to reduce sales, so that they can then use the poor sales as a justification for scrapping the trolley entirely. If that's the case then next time I'll fly from Newquay; at least Airports and Planes have refreshments available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If GWR can't guarantee the trolley will make it to all coaches, then it is ludicrous for GWR to have a policy banning people being served if they walk to the trolley.
Would be far better to simply park the trolley at the half-way point of the train and then announce that people who want refreshments can find the trolley in Coach 'x'.

In my pre COVID experience that was exactly what they did if it was a bit busy to get through. Has the policy changed?

 

[LowLevel]

Personally all I ever want off on train catering, usually, is a cup of decent coffee or occasionally a beer/wine. If there was a decent restaurant like you find abroad then I'd use it, but there isn't, and my truly long distance journeys are fairly rare in the UK.

I quite like a trundle to the buffet personally.

I am lucky enough to have some first class travel facilities and even then unless I'm having a treat trip for a holiday on LNER to Scotland in which case the full service is much appreciated, all I ever have is a coffee and a bottle of still water.

 

[g492p]

It demonstrated that there certainly was a culture of laziness among some Virgin/Avanti on-board stewards, because they'd rather sit there chatting than be in the passenger accommodation doing their job. It was noticeable how much better the service on the East Coast, where that culture had not developed, was.

On the East coast staff do that too, generally in K or M. This is usually due to there not being enough staff seats on the train, rather than your “culture of laziness”.

 

[dk1]

Some people do it deliberately for a laugh, but knowing how that app works I don't know how you could unless you had location services turned off, which falls into the bracket of "getting your comeuppance for not using the tech properly", but isn't unusual among the paranoid.

Got 4 Spoonx in my city so normally offers 3 of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Got 4 Spoonx in my city so normally offers 3 of them.

2 in MK (used to be 4), but it always shows the right one at the top of the list.

 

[dk1]

2 in MK (used to be 4), but it always shows the right one at the top of the list.

Probably more of an issue when you're half cut. Got a colleague that's done it

 

[Craig1122]

Posters always seem to fall into one of two two camps when the subject of on train catering is brought up, one stating that on board catering must be provided especially on long journeys and the other stating that is not needed any more due to "superior" shops at stations. Either way the TOCs can't seem to win on this topic!

Personally I'd like the option of buying on train but it's undeniable the choice on stations has improved dramatically since the days of Travellers Fare when things like M&S Simply Food just didn't exist. Most major stations also have a Tesco Express or similar nearby if you're in the know and don't want to pay the price premium of buying on station/train.

Killer trip for me was relying on GWR a few years back on the way home from Wales. Long wait for the trolley as other people have commented on. Paid £6 for a roll with a tiny bit of ham and a couple of pieces of wilting lettuce. Tesco meal deal was £3 at the time and would have been far better. That's the last time I've relied on train catering for food and that's entirely down to the poor service offered.

 

[185143]

I’ve known people do that even though it clearly asks you what pub you’re in.

I've done it twice!

Opened the app in Wick after a heavy night in Inverness the night before. It was still on The King's Highway, and for some reason DIDN'T prompt me with "are you in this pub?" So someone in Inverness got a Panini+chips and a pint out of me that day, as the staff said there was nothing they could do.

The same happened in Ashton in Makerfield after being in the Earlestown 'Spoons and it hadn't updated. On autopilot I ordered a pint and realised instantly what I'd just done. Though the staff were somewhat more helpful and rang the Earlestown pub, who confirmed the pint hadn't been poured and cancelled it.

Going off topic from Avanti at seat order, I do admit! Although... it could be possible to put your seat number online theoretically if it weren't for the requirement to be on the WiFi and have stuff sent to you, as some people do with the 'Spoons app.

 

[al78]

Then you get into the issues of whilst the catering itself is a loss maker does the value added to the overall product of "traveling by long distance train" make up for that? How many passengers might be turned away from the idea that they can't get a drink or snack on-board for four hours? A difficult question to answer!

It is an issue traveling a very long distance, e.g. London to Inverness. I don't want to spend a whole day just eating cold food and snacks. I had that issue a couple of years ago when I got a bus from Glasgow to London, the bus didn't stop anywhere to give anyone a chance of hopping off and getting a meal so I had to manage with snacks for 11 hours. The sleeper train is more practical for London to the Scottish highlands but for a single person it is very expensive unless getting any quality sleep is unimportant.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Is there scope to have catering as an add on for long distance either on board or by way of x percent off at the outlets in the stations for a meal deal , breakfast etc. During the booking process like plusbus.



I've seen videos of Japanese trains with vending machines, but they wouldn't last 5 mins here which is a shame.

 

[Bishopstone]

The RMT are unhappy with at-seat service being stopped.

Were they happy when at-seat service *started* on Avanti, or was it viewed as a burden which should command an incentive payment to deliver?

 

[swt_passenger]

The RMT are unhappy with at-seat service being stopped.

Were they happy when at-seat service *started* on Avanti, or was it viewed as a burden which should command an incentive payment to deliver?

There’s a previous thread from 2021, that initially seems to indicate they were not happy with a few matters to do with both catering and also the introduction of standard premium. I’m not aware of the exact details though:

RMT Ballot Avanti West Coast Members For Strike Action

RMT balloting for strike action and action short of a strike on Avanti West Coast over pay, the introduction of standard premium, and other issues. The ballot closes on 18 November. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members-updates/breakdown-in-industrial-relations--avanti-west-coast211021/...

www.railforums.co.uk

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the RMT find it possible to object to something being introduced, and then a few months later object to it being removed…

 

[Kite159]

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the RMT find it possible to object to something being introduced, and then a few months later object to it being removed…

Just look at the comments they made when First group took over from stagecoach on the South Western franchise. SWT being described as basket case and passengers deserving another operator only for them to do a complete 180 to say that Stagecoach was brilliant once the announcement was made.

 

[Craig1122]

Just look at the comments they made when First group took over from stagecoach on the South Western franchise. SWT being described as basket case and passengers deserving another operator only for them to do a complete 180 to say that Stagecoach was brilliant once the announcement was made.

TBF, I don't think that position is unique to the RMT. Most passengers weren't that enamored with Stagecoach until they experienced First.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's a major issue for me and I expect a lot of other people. I'm not giving payment details on an insecure WiFi network.

Wi-Fi networks aren’t insecure of themselves, and payments are through HTTPS. The biggest issue with Wi-Fi networks isn’t that the free Wi-Fi in a cafe or hotel is insecure, it’s that it is easily spoofed and can trick people from the legitimate Wi-Fi network to one controlled by crooks. It’s a lot harder to spoof the Wi-Fi of a moving target.

As for the age-old trolley vs buffet argument, the answer really needs to be both for multi-carriage trains. 5 coaches is about the limit for a single trolley and, even then, you’ll often not see the trolley. I did Huddersfield-York recently on TPE in 1st class and didn’t see a soul.

 

[william.martin]

Do they do at seat service on the voyagers?
I have never tried however due to where I live I don't get the 390's just the 221's.

 

[thomalex]

Tried my best to use it a few weeks back and couldn't log on to the Wifi successfully so eventually gave up and walked to the shop. LNER seem to have a much better system that doesn't require you to log on to the onboard Wifi.

 

[Trackman]

Tried my best to use it a few weeks back and couldn't log on to the Wifi successfully so eventually gave up and walked to the shop. LNER seem to have a much better system that doesn't require you to log on to the onboard Wifi.

Never had it working, even when wifi was working - I asked about it, apparently it wasn't a staff problem but the app was linking to the wrong unit number.
So how does the LNER app work? never used it. How does it know what train you are on, do have to enter journey details?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never had it working, even when wifi was working - I asked about it, apparently it wasn't a staff problem but the app was linking to the wrong unit number.
So how does the LNER app work? never used it. How does it know what train you are on, do have to enter journey details?

The QR codes on the seatback take you to a URL which includes the unit number.

 

[Trackman]

The QR codes on the seatback take you to a URL which includes the unit number.

So simple when you think about it.

 

[cactustwirly]

I can get an EE signal pretty much all the way from MK to Edinburgh via Birmingham, so perhaps you need a better phone or a better network. Voda isn't terrible but does have quite a lot of gaps.

I believe at least some on-train wifi uses EE for that exact reason. Plus an aerial on the roof will give a better signal than one inside.

But it isn't always 4G, I still get H+ when I'm at work

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it isn't always 4G, I still get H+ when I'm at work

I've not had HSDPA+ for a long time but that's still enough to work.

 

[DelW]

TBF, I don't think that position is unique to the RMT. Most passengers weren't that enamored with Stagecoach until they experienced First.

Indeed, there were some in 2017 who thought that, in the words of the song, "things could only get better". SWR soon proved otherwise.

It seems to me that standard class catering is likely to disappear from most routes within very few years. The DfT's preferred model is evidently to cut timetables and/or train lengths until the majority of services run full and standing if not crush-loaded. That's not compatible with either trolley service or passengers getting to a buffet car, or indeed for the at-seat system discussed above.

Such catering as survives would be in first class only (as a way to drive patronage there even when its seating quality is reduced) with something like complimentary basics (tea, coffee, biscuits, crisps etc.) and paid-for sandwiches, cakes, and hot snacks delivered to f/c seats only.

At present there's no way I'd head out on a long train journey without taking whatever food and drink I wanted with me, either from home or buying on the way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, there were some in 2017 who thought that, in the words of the song, "things could only get better". SWR soon proved otherwise.

It seems to me that standard class catering is likely to disappear from most routes within very few years. The DfT's preferred model is evidently to cut timetables and/or train lengths until the majority of services run full and standing if not crush-loaded. That's not compatible with either trolley service or passengers getting to a buffet car, or indeed for the at-seat system discussed above.

Such catering as survives would be in first class only (as a way to drive patronage there even when its seating quality is reduced) with something like complimentary basics (tea, coffee, biscuits, crisps etc.) and paid-for sandwiches, cakes, and hot snacks delivered to f/c seats only.

At present there's no way I'd head out on a long train journey without taking whatever food and drink I wanted with me, either from home or buying on the way.

I can't see any sense in having First Class catering but not having that same person able to sell to walk-up Standard passengers, either via online ordering or by them going and waiting at the end of First Class for them to come along and serve them. The Hull Trains situation is utterly bizarre and can as far as I can tell only be for reasons relating to industrial relations, i.e. there used to be two staff, now there's one, and they together with the Union is refusing to have them do "two jobs". Nobody is going to pay the hefty cost of upgrading just for a cup of tea.

I can see there being no catering at all on most services though. And I'd welcome that in a way - I am happy to pay a little extra for a better seat, but don't want that price inflated by paying for "freebies" I don't want. That's why I like Standard Premium.

 

[DelW]

I can't see any sense in having First Class catering but not having that same person able to sell to walk-up Standard passengers, either via online ordering or by them going and waiting at the end of First Class for them to come along and serve them.

The problem with that is that there are an increasing number of services on which it's just impossible to even walk through the train, let alone carry food and drink (or push a trolley).