125mph on the Great Eastern

[YourMum666]

Is there a good case for increasing speeds on the GEML to 125, and which parts of the mainline would initially be the best place to implement this new speed limit, and can the OHLE cope with the speed increase. As we all know the stadler flirts can do 125mph, so should plans be put in place to increase certain parts of the line to full 125 running to slash journey time

 

[Darandio]

It comes up here fairly regularly and one critical piece of infrastructure you haven't mentioned is signalling, signal spacing on the GEML is quite short apparently. Geology also plays a part as well and that's without taking into account that any increases wouldn't bring great benefits in shortening the journey time.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And they'd surely just catch up the Ipswich/Clacton/Braintree/Town services anyway?

 

[RuddA]

Quite a few level crossings on the route as well, especially between Diss and Norwich.

Hope he doesn't mind me including him, but I'm sure @dk1 will know the answer.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there a good case for increasing speeds on the GEML to 125, and which parts of the mainline would initially be the best place to implement this new speed limit, and can the OHLE cope with the speed increase. As we all know the stadler flirts can do 125mph, so should plans be put in place to increase certain parts of the line to full 125 running to slash journey time

It’s not just OHLE, there’s signalling spacing as has been mentioned already. There’s also all the effects on civils and structures, track forces, passing clearances, level crossing risk, etc etc. There‘s far more involved than the rolling stock’s capability. Speeding up some trains on a mixed traffic railway may well reduce total capacity anyway.

 

[adamedwards]

What would be the gain in revenue to pay for the speed increase? As Norwich to London is under 2 hours it would be pretty marginal as the train is already far faster than road or any flight. I would think the new station at Beaulieu Park with it's passing loop will do far more for reliabilty and tightening of existing timings than increased speed. Also what locations could be increased from a low level? Would a faster double track swing bridge at Norwich gain more than many miles of 125mph track? Not saying it won't be viable at some point, but there's likely to be lower hanging fruit first.

 

[Magdalia]

It comes up here fairly regularly and one critical piece of infrastructure you haven't mentioned is signalling, signal spacing on the GEML is quite short apparently.

If you compare the OTT maps, you can see that the down main between Liverpool Street and Shenfield has about twice as many signals as the down fast between Kings Cross and Welwyn Garden City, both of which are about 20 miles. I don't know if this still happens on the GEML, but in ye olden dayes a green required three double yellows ahead, not one.

And they'd surely just catch up the Ipswich/Clacton/Braintree/Town services anyway?

And they would catch up with 75mph heavy intermodal trains even more quickly. We are talking about one of the two main rail routes out of a very big container port.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there a good case for increasing speeds on the GEML to 125, and which parts of the mainline would initially be the best place to implement this new speed limit, and can the OHLE cope with the speed increase.

Last time the question was asked, and some links to other threads with the reasons why it won't happens.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/geml-110-125mph-operation.228139/#post-5534688

 

[Snow1964]

Route is not really long enough to justify it, south of Colchester signal spacing precludes it, not really going to save any time on few extra miles to Ipswich (where everything stops anyway).

Might be a case for some 105 or 110mph sections north of Ipswich, but even that is questionable. The 100mph limit is more historic based on max 1980s traction (and 1960s locos used in 1980s) could do, rather than a speed optimised on clean sheet of paper. Certainly no justification for 125mph.

 

[dk1]

Quite a few level crossings on the route as well, especially between Diss and Norwich.

Hope he doesn't mind me including him, but I'm sure @dk1 will know the answer.

Afternoon & not at all mate. Yes, unless the multitude of AHBs between Manningtree & Norwich as well as Church Street Kelvedon were upgraded at great expense you’ll never see anything above 100mph on the GEML.

 

[RuddA]

Thank you.
With all the houses being built in Norfolk, if they had kept the intermediate stations there would probably have been a greater chance of some reopening and a stopper being reintroduced rather than getting 125mph running. But unfortunately there's probably a 0% chance of that ever happening.

 

[class26]

What would be the gain in revenue to pay for the speed increase? As Norwich to London is under 2 hours it would be pretty marginal as the train is already far faster than road or any flight. I would think the new station at Beaulieu Park with it's passing loop will do far more for reliabilty and tightening of existing timings than increased speed. Also what locations could be increased from a low level? Would a faster double track swing bridge at Norwich gain more than many miles of 125mph track? Not saying it won't be viable at some point, but there's likely to be lower hanging fruit first.

No flights between Norwich and London .

 

[Trainfan344]

The best thing would be to focus on increasing capacity between Ipswich and Norwich.

Grade separation at Haugley and invest in 4 track between Chelmsford and Shenfield should be prioritised to increase the capacity.

 

[dk1]

No flights between Norwich and London .

You aren’t going to get any faster with a double track Swingbridge at Trowse. It’s already 40mph which compares extremely well with the 15mph double track bridge it replaced in 1986. There is also a tight 30mph bend just the other side.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

No flights between Norwich and London .

I mean there's flight plans you can get, however there are no direct flights, most involve a change (usually at Amsterdam)

Probably no one would choose the 3h 15 flight (+travel time to Heathrow itself) over the GEML, which seems to take no more than 2 hours.

 

[William3000]

The best thing would be to focus on increasing capacity between Ipswich and Norwich.

Grade separation at Haugley and invest in 4 track between Chelmsford and Shenfield should be prioritised to increase the capacity.

North of Haughley junction, traffic is sparse.

 

[Russel]

The Great Eastern has been closed most weekends for engineering works over the last 20 years, don't give then more reasons to need to do 'upgrades'...

 

[Trainbike46]

Is there a good case for increasing speeds on the GEML to 125, and which parts of the mainline would initially be the best place to implement this new speed limit, and can the OHLE cope with the speed increase. As we all know the stadler flirts can do 125mph, so should plans be put in place to increase certain parts of the line to full 125 running to slash journey time

200 km/h / 125 mph stadler flirts are available to order, but that doesn't mean that GAs Flirts can do that too. Though when they were ordered I did read somewhere that the 100 mph top speed could be upgraded to 110 mph if required later, but going to 125 mph would require new trains.

If there are any slow sections that could be upgraded that is more likely to be possible - as increasing a 40 mph section to 75 mph speeds up all trains, it shouldn't reduce capacity. Though I'm not sure there's any slow sections that could be upgraded for a reasonable price?

 

[zwk500]

London to Norwich is 115 miles and takes 1h44, so an average speed of 66mph. I would suggest therefore that the focus on improving journey times would be better spent on raising floors, not ceilings.

 

[bramling]

Is there a good case for increasing speeds on the GEML to 125, and which parts of the mainline would initially be the best place to implement this new speed limit, and can the OHLE cope with the speed increase. As we all know the stadler flirts can do 125mph, so should plans be put in place to increase certain parts of the line to full 125 running to slash journey time

I suspect the infrastructure work would be prohibitive, and would simply cause more timetable conflicts.

If there was money to spend, I’d do it on raising lower speed limits where possible, and/or sorting out capacity bottlenecks.

 

[AM9]

200 km/h / 125 mph stadler flirts are available to order, but that doesn't mean that GAs Flirts can do that too. Though when they were ordered I did read somewhere that the 100 mph top speed could be upgraded to 110 mph if required later, but going to 125 mph would require new trains.

If there are any slow sections that could be upgraded that is more likely to be possible - as increasing a 40 mph section to 75 mph speeds up all trains, it shouldn't reduce capacity. Though I'm not sure there's any slow sections that could be upgraded for a reasonable price?

There's not much that can be done to improve the GEML, even in the peaks. Maybe provide an up goods loop at Ingatestone (mirroring the existing down one) which would give an opportunity to order/reorder trains entering the four track metro lines west of Shenfield for less disruptive access to the NLL. Chelmsford Station could maybe do with a through track allowing passenger services to be looped there although Beulieu Park should also provide timetable options for overtaking stoppers, (and possibly turning Chelmsford area trains).

 

[dk1]

There's not much that can be done to improve the GEML, even in the peaks. Maybe provide an up goods loop at Ingatestone (mirroring the existing down one) which would give an opportunity to order/reorder trains entering the four track metro lines west of Shenfield for less disruptive access to the NLL. Chelmsford Station could maybe do with a through track allowing passenger services to be looped there although Beulieu Park should also provide timetable options for overtaking stoppers, (and possibly turning Chelmsford area trains).

Chelmsford station isn’t wide enough for long enough for a useful middle road. It used to have one which was often used to store a few vans or the odd locomotive but that’s all. Beaulieu Park will do a better job for that sort of thing. Ingatestone down loop is next to useless for freight as is too short to accommodate anything other than the odd stone/sand train. Not sure it’s really possible to extend it or provide anything opposite. It’s often better to just let the freight continue.

London to Norwich is 115 miles and takes 1h44, so an average speed of 66mph. I would suggest therefore that the focus on improving journey times would be better spent on raising floors, not ceilings.

You can easily do it in under 90 minutes with Ipswich only services. One recent non-stop additional service was timetabled to complete the route in 87.

 

[zwk500]

You can easily do it in under 90 minutes with Ipswich only services. One recent non-stop additional service was timetabled to complete the route in 87.

Proving the point quite neatly - it's going slow (stopping) that kills the journey, not being unable to go fast.

 

[dk1]

Proving the point quite neatly - it's going slow (stopping) that kills the journey, not being unable to go fast.

Also the retarded schedules with extended dwell times don’t help. If you get faster timings like at the weekend then you catch up freight off peak and other commuter traffic in the peaks. That’s always been the problem with this line.

 

[Horizon22]

The Great Eastern has been closed most weekends for engineering works over the last 20 years, don't give then more reasons to need to do 'upgrades'...

Freight really hammers the line and that won't end any time soon, unfortunately.

 

[Bald Rick]

To summarise:

Is there a good case for increasing speeds on the GEML to 125

No

and which parts of the mainline would initially be the best place to implement this new speed limit,

None

can the OHLE cope with the speed increase

No.


Thread closed?

 

[dk1]

To summarise:



No



None





No.


Thread closed?

Hallelujah

 

[Energy]

You'd probably get more extra capacity out of upping freight to 100mph.

London to Norwich is 115 miles and takes 1h44, so an average speed of 66mph. I would suggest therefore that the focus on improving journey times would be better spent on raising floors, not ceilings.

Fully agreed.

 

[Trainbike46]

Also the retarded schedules with extended dwell times don’t help. If you get faster timings like at the weekend then you catch up freight off peak and other commuter traffic in the peaks. That’s always been the problem with this line.

Now that the entire GA fleet has been replaced, will there be a timetable recast to make use of the better performance of the new stock?

 

[Bald Rick]

Now that the entire GA fleet has been replaced, will there be a timetable recast to make use of the better performance of the new stock?

it’s been on the cards for three years, but it is proving quite a challenge…