140mph trains

[YourMum666]

Which sections of railway in the uk (outside HS1) would be the most ideal parts to incorporate 140mph running.

 

[Bartsimho]

Which sections of railway in the uk (outside HS1) would be the most ideal parts to incorporate 140mph running.

ECML from York to Darlington. It was the race track anyway

 

[devon_belle]

The GWML must be a good candidate because of its relative lack of curves.

Not sure how feasible it would be operationally/beyond Bristol Parkway. I wonder if the OHLE currently in place could handle 140 mph trains?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If ETCS is put on the WCML 390s can go 140.

 

[YourMum666]

The GWML must be a good candidate because of its relative lack of curves.

Not sure how feasible it would be operationally/beyond Bristol Parkway. I wonder if the OHLE currently in place could handle 140 mph trains?

what about the B&H, it’s relatively straight

ECML from York to Darlington. It was the race track anyway

what about north of darlington?

 

[devon_belle]

what about the B&H, it’s relatively straight

Is it? There are a few severe links which I think would need to be ironed out. Also, I suspect any local trains and freight traffic would interfere with 140 mph running.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If ETCS is put on the WCML 390s can go 140.

The Eurobalises are already there for TASS, too!

The GWML must be a good candidate because of its relative lack of curves.

Not sure how feasible it would be operationally/beyond Bristol Parkway. I wonder if the OHLE currently in place could handle 140 mph trains?

Yes, the GWML OHLE (west of Airport Jct) is specified for 140mph (with two pantographs iirc) - so it can also support higher speeds in addition to surviving a nuclear attack.

 

[devon_belle]

in addition to surviving a nuclear attack

Thinking ahead... I like it!

 

[YourMum666]

Is it? There are a few severe links which I think would need to be ironed out. Also, I suspect any local trains and freight traffic would interfere with 140 mph running.

which ones namely, i think from Pewsey to Castle Cary should be good for 140mph

correct me if i am wrong but the midland mainline between Bedford and Leicester can run 140

 

[hexagon789]

Peterborough to Stoke, given that was (bar one 135mph curve) passed for 140mph for test trains with Flashing Greens.

York to Darlington as mentioned, being one of the longest 125mph sections.

The GWML, given drivers regularly managed well into the 130s (possibly even touching or certainly coming close to 140) in the early days of Class 253s before limiters were fitted to the power cars.

Presumably the same sections Railtrack were supposed to upgrade to 140mph south of Crewe would also be viable.

 

[43096]

which ones namely, i think from Pewsey to Castle Cary should be good for 140mph

If that's the case why do you think line speed maximum is only 110mph down there now? With 125mph trains having run the route since around 1980, why has no increase beyond 110 been done?

 

[YourMum666]

If that's the case why do you think line speed maximum is only 110mph down there now? With 125mph trains having run the route since around 1980, why has no increase beyond 110 been done?

maybe because of how the gradient profile is, If it were to be electrified maybe we could get 125 or even 140 limits on the B&H

 

[43066]

correct me if i am wrong but the midland mainline between Bedford and Leicester can run 140

No chance! Possibly on the 125 bits south of Wellingborough, but between there and Leicester it’s mostly 110 max with some steep curves, some bits a fair bit lower.

 

[Ken H]

Peterborough to Stoke, given that was (bar one 135mph curve) passed for 140mph for test trains with Flashing Greens.

York to Darlington as mentioned, being one of the longest 125mph sections.

The GWML, given drivers regularly managed well into the 130s (possibly even touching or certainly coming close to 140) in the early days of Class 253s before limiters were fitted to the power cars.

Presumably the same sections Railtrack were supposed to upgrade to 140mph south of Crewe would also be viable.

They needed 140mph on ECML for type approval for cl91 + Mk 4. But is the journey time reduction enough to justify the costs.

 

[Ken H]

They needed 140mph on ECML for type approval for cl91 + Mk 4. But is the journey time reduction enough to justify the costs.

Isnt Penrith - Carlisle a possibility?

 

[YourMum666]

No chance! Possibly on the 125 bits south of Wellingborough, but between there and Leicester it’s mostly 110 max with some steep curves, some bits a fair bit lower.

how about luton - bedford

 

[stuu]

which ones namely, i think from Pewsey to Castle Cary should be good for 140mph

Certainly not. There's some very tight curves, especially west of Frome, but east of Westbury isn't all that straight either. You need ~3000m radius curves to run at that speed

Bristol to Taunton has horizontal curves which make HS2 look like the Stelvio Pass, but all the other factors involved in setting the maximum speed mean it isn't suitable

 

[YourMum666]

Certainly not. There's some very tight curves, especially west of Frome, but east of Westbury isn't all that straight either. You need ~3000m radius curves to run at that speed

Bristol to Taunton has horizontal curves which make HS2 look like the Stelvio Pass, but all the other factors involved in setting the maximum speed mean it isn't suitable

what about reading-didcot-swindon

 

[507020]

ECML from York to Darlington. It was the race track anyway

Actually Doncaster - Darlington, given that York - Doncaster includes the 1983 built Selby diversion, the alignment can take in excess of 160mph.

what about north of darlington?

Definitely not through Morpeth. If a similar deviation was built then perhaps.

correct me if i am wrong but the midland mainline between Bedford and Leicester can run 140

Definitely not. Remember that there is currently no 140mph running on any part of the network except HS1.

Presumably the same sections Railtrack were supposed to upgrade to 140mph south of Crewe would also be viable.

If anyone ever bothers to do the upgrade.

The only parts likely to get 140mph running for the foreseeable future are Kings Cross - Peterborough and Paddington - Reading no further north and no further west.

 

[AlastairFraser]

what about reading-didcot-swindon

Already mentioned under GWML.

 

[43096]

maybe because of how the gradient profile is, If it were to be electrified maybe we could get 125 or even 140 limits on the B&H

You’ve never actually been on these routes, have you?

 

[sprinterguy]

what about north of darlington?

I would think that the alignment north of Darlington is far too sinuous to permit higher speeds, though there are some sections of 125mph running.

 

[D365]

If ETCS is put on the WCML 390s can go 140.

It’s never as easy as ’just’ ETCS. ECML will be a prime example.

 

[43066]

how about luton - bedford

Mostly 120/125, still pretty curvy…

 

[Energy]

They needed 140mph on ECML for type approval for cl91 + Mk 4. But is the journey time reduction enough to justify the costs.

140mph saves a small amount of time, it only really makes sense when the upgrades needed to support it would have happened anyway, e.g ECML ETCS.

 

[Western Lord]

140mph saves a small amount of time, it only really makes sense when the upgrades needed to support it would have happened anyway, e.g ECML ETCS.

Not only does it save only a small amount of time, it eats into track capacity. It is a number which seems to appeal to a boy racer mind set. On a busy mixed traffic railway increasing the speed envelope is bad news, indeed, I would argue that some lines should be reduced to 110mph maximum. If you want really high speeds, build a high speed line.

 

[Trainbike46]

Not only does it save only a small amount of time, it eats into track capacity. It is a number which seems to appeal to a boy racer mind set. On a busy mixed traffic railway increasing the speed envelope is bad news, indeed, I would argue that some lines should be reduced to 110mph maximum. If you want really high speeds, build a high speed line.

It's not high speeds that eat capacity, it is differences in speed that do that.

York-Darlington doesn't have stopping services, so speeding up everything is actually realistic, though depending on whether the 22x and 180s can do 140 mph, they might have to get different rolling stock. LNER and TPE already uses 80x capable of 140, so no problem there

 

[D365]

... it only really makes sense when the upgrades needed to support it would have happened anyway, e.g ECML ETCS.

Once again, ETCS is not the panacea for enabling 140mph operation!

 

[Energy]

Once again, ETCS is not the panacea for enabling 140mph operation!

It's obviously not the only thing which is needed, if the track alignment can't do 140mph then you can't do it no matter the signaling. As far as signalling goes ETCS is the default for in cab in the UK now

 

[Western Lord]

It's not high speeds that eat capacity, it is differences in speed that do that.

York-Darlington doesn't have stopping services, so speeding up everything is actually realistic, though depending on whether the 22x and 180s can do 140 mph, they might have to get different rolling stock. LNER and TPE already uses 80x capable of 140, so no problem there

Precisely my point! Increasing the speed envelope (i.e. the highest speed traffic and the lowest speed traffic) eats into capacity. How much time are you going to save between York and Darlington, and at what cost?