16 Coach EMU?

[Waddon]

At East Croydon recently, I saw a train advertised on the indicators going to London Victoria, and stating it had 16 coaches! (It even said 'Front 12 coaches only for Clapham Junction')

I took a picture of the indicator so I know I wasn't dreaming it.

Is this a real thing or just some sort of glitch in the matrix? I wouldn't have thought that the platforms at Victoria could even take a sixteen coach train.

I couldn't stay around to see if it was a real train or not. Was on a guards strike day so was wondering if it might have been an unusual working, or if someone was just mucking around with the indicators...

 

[WatcherZero]

Glitch, sometimes the passenger information system mistakes how many units there are in a formation.

It was mistaking a 3x4 formation for a 4x4.

 

[NSE]

As an aside, I think platform two is capable of handling the length at Victoria? Am I right in thinking that?


I know it's on the SE side and wouldn't happen in practice blah blah

 

[gimmea50anyday]

A 12CEP+MLV+TLV was common for boat trains yes, however this formation is the max 3rd rail index that could be accomodated of 14. (Weymouth, lymington and 1066 lines are index 10 iirc) An EE507 had an index of 1 but an EE546 was rated as 1.5 therefore a REP or 2x73 had the same index as a 12 car CEP. Although power supplies have been hugely upgraded Electrostars also draw more power. 4x3car will draw more than 3x4car and i dont think is permitted due to the power draw. So not only would signal spacing and platform lengths be an issue with a 16 car but traction power would also be a limiting factor.

A REP+CEP formation was reported once but as traction supply kept tripping out two of the CEP motors had to be isolated. Wether thats true or folklore remains to be seen but with an index of 16 power would certainly be too high

 

[Class377/5]

At East Croydon recently, I saw a train advertised on the indicators going to London Victoria, and stating it had 16 coaches! (It even said 'Front 12 coaches only for Clapham Junction')

I took a picture of the indicator so I know I wasn't dreaming it.

Is this a real thing or just some sort of glitch in the matrix? I wouldn't have thought that the platforms at Victoria could even take a sixteen coach train.

I couldn't stay around to see if it was a real train or not. Was on a guards strike day so was wondering if it might have been an unusual working, or if someone was just mucking around with the indicators...

There is a platform on Victoria on the SN side that can just take a 16 coach.

However due to the way the systems work there is a way this error can actually be done but requires some good timing.

 

[Hophead]

There's at least one 4x3-car 377 M-F on Southern - runs to East Grinstead, but Horsham has seen the same in the past

 

[trainmania100]

There have also been 4x3 car ecs runs between Haywards heath and lovers walk with the occasional move via Lewes.
It is probably no doubt that the third rail can handle 12 car 4x3 but I wouldn't like to put any more than a 12 car on it!
The AC electrification is different I assume, as there was a 24 car 700 on it at one point during testing.

 

[lookingforit35]

A 23 car 375 has run before as this Youtube video shows. Although this was of course in exceptional circumstances and not in public service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jta4c9FMmCA

 

[Skie]

I have vague memories of being told there had been an embarrassing failure of multiple units on the Moorfields - Sandhills stretch, resulting in a 24 car rescue happening on Merseyrail. A 6 car service failed, rescued by another 6 car which then failed, resulting in the need for another two 6 car services to be joined up to finally push the dead trains out and back to Kirkdale.

 

[b2311e]

I have vague memories of being told there had been an embarrassing failure of multiple units on the Moorfields - Sandhills stretch, resulting in a 24 car rescue happening on Merseyrail. A 6 car service failed, rescued by another 6 car which then failed, resulting in the need for another two 6 car services to be joined up to finally push the dead trains out and back to Kirkdale.

And on the Wirral, 18 cars travelled from Chester a couple of years back, in icy conditions

[youtube]qSNzGt1-0b8[/youtube]

 

[Mordac]

Not quite as long, but pretty impressive all the same, is the 8 coach mega pacer convoy on this video:
[youtube]LFOaOGpOpfo[/youtube]

 

[peterinlewes]

Could well have been due to the swapping of units on Genius Systems being caught mid-swap. I recall when working (now happily retired from Southern Train Planning) checking formations for my train home via Genius and finding excess units allocated, which quickly corrected itself as Control finished adjusting swaps. By looking at positions (1,2,3 etc) sometimes two different units allocated to same position.
Sometimes swaps are quite complicated creating a 'domino' effect and it could take a few minutes for Control to input all the details.
No doubt with the ongoing chaos and short notice swaps this is not unheard of. At least the CIS picked up the fact that Clapham Junction ids only a 12 car platform.

 

[Class377/5]

There have also been 4x3 car ecs runs between Haywards heath and lovers walk with the occasional move via Lewes.
It is probably no doubt that the third rail can handle 12 car 4x3 but I wouldn't like to put any more than a 12 car on it!
The AC electrification is different I assume, as there was a 24 car 700 on it at one point during testing.

Plenty of pictures of Southern running 16 car ECS on the BML

The 24 coach 700 testing always ran from Three Bridges with both units live. However they are designed to operate this way and have a slight cheat.

Could well have been due to the swapping of units on Genius Systems being caught mid-swap. I recall when working (now happily retired from Southern Train Planning) checking formations for my train home via Genius and finding excess units allocated, which quickly corrected itself as Control finished adjusting swaps. By looking at positions (1,2,3 etc) sometimes two different units allocated to same position.
Sometimes swaps are quite complicated creating a 'domino' effect and it could take a few minutes for Control to input all the details.
No doubt with the ongoing chaos and short notice swaps this is not unheard of. At least the CIS picked up the fact that Clapham Junction ids only a 12 car platform.

Pretty much what I'm guessing caused it. Happened regularly but due to the way the system feeds it's hardly every shows up on the public side.

 

[D365]

The 24 coach 700 testing always ran from Three Bridges with both units live. However they are designed to operate this way and have a slight cheat.

Just out of curiosity, what is this 'cheat' that you speak of?

 

[Class377/5]

Just out of curiosity, what is this 'cheat' that you speak of?

The 700 are designed that in the event of complete failure they can work in multiple. When two units are coupled together they automatically go to 50% power so a 24 car takes the same amount of power as a 12 car.

 

[Deepgreen]

Back to train length indications, I often see splitting trains on Southern with the legend on the platform screens showing "front coach" (singular) for whichever destination, and "rear four coaches" for the second destination.

 

[Deepgreen]

The 700 are designed that in the event of complete failure they can work in multiple. When two units are coupled together they automatically go to 50% power so a 24 car takes the same amount of power as a 12 car.

Interesting - so limping along on a mere 3300hp per unit ('Deltic' or 4REP equivalent)!

 

[Class377/5]

Interesting - so limping along on a mere 3300hp per unit ('Deltic' or 4REP equivalent)!

There's no limping home really as the 700s are overpowered and even 50% traction won't affect the train that much due to its set up compared to older stock.