17.26 Leeds Skipton

[30907]

Some of the Carlisle services pass through Gargrave but sit at Skipton for 5 minutes.

Well, one does.
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perhaps Northern should take on a couple more 321's and not run DMU's south of Skipton. Turn units from Lancaster/Carlisle round at Skipton (possibly saving a couple of units). This would necessitate some timetable tweaking but at the same time try to provide an hourly interval service through the day to stations between Skipton and Settle.

Through DMU's to Leeds would continue outside the peak.

Where are these spare 321s?

I believe turning at Skipton was proposed as an economy measure way back. IMO the effect would be only a marginal improvement to peak services (doesn't the Northern ITT specify an extra train anyway?).

Gargrave had, until recently, a regular bus service into Skipton, which probably reduced demand by rail.

 

[crehld]

Gargrave had, until recently, a good and regular bus service into Skipton, which probably reduced demand by rail.

That good and regular bus service cost £7 each way! No one other than those with the free passes used it and consequently the company went bust.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It's actually even more important than that because unbelievably there is not another train even in another 2+ hours. The 1645 is the last train of the day that runs through to Lancaster and Morcambe.

It's not even late enough for people who finish work in Leeds at 5pm. The service is of little use to anyone from Giggleswick and beyond who wants to travel to and from Leeds to work because in the morning the first train doesn't arrive in Leeds until 0904. I'm sure with an earlier train into Leeds in the morning and a later return in the evening, plus a regular 2 hourly service, passenger numbers even on this sparsely populated route could rise significantly throughout the day. Perhaps the answer is a more regular Skipton to Lancaster service with a guaranteed cross platform change at Skipton.

Its worth mentioning here that Giggleswick and Settle are very close therefore if you are living in Giggleswick and wish to be in Leeds / Bradford before 09.00 its only a short drive to Settle.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As I mentioned there was talk (just talk mind) to overcome the Aire Valley capacity issue a while back by splitting Carlisle and Lancaster services at Hellifield or Long Preston (thereby only taking up one path instead of two), but it still hinges on available stock.

I know the rail users' group were up in arms when it was last suggested, but I still think the best solution for the Little North Western would be to run Morecambe/Lancaster-Skipton only, with an increase in frequency, perhaps with a morning and evening peak train to Leeds.

I get the arguments against it- they don't want to lose their direct trains- but with intelligent planning it could be a cross-platform interchange at Skipton and there would be more journey opportunities.

The only advantage to splitting a Carlisle train at Skipton would be that the Carlisle trains could then run fast to Settle.

The issue is capacity down the Aire Valley and that's an issue that isn't going to be solved any time soon.

 

[crehld]

I know the rail users' group were up in arms when it was last suggested, but I still think the best solution for the Little North Western would be to run Morecambe/Lancaster-Skipton only, with an increase in frequency, perhaps with a morning and evening peak train to Leeds.

I get the arguments against it- they don't want to lose their direct trains- but with intelligent planning it could be a cross-platform interchange at Skipton and there would be more journey opportunities.

I actually don't think this is a bad idea at all. The rail users group would argue, however, that if you could find a path in the peak you should have no problem finding a path off peak. It's doesn't help that tje stock they use is limited to 75mph, when the Aire Valley line is 90+.

The only advantage to splitting a Carlisle train at Skipton would be that the Carlisle trains could then run fast to Settle.

This is not an advantage by any measure and would lead to a number of possible journeys being lost (and it would make it more difficult for me to go to the pub )

The issue is capacity down the Aire Valley and that's an issue that isn't going to be solved any time soon.

Indeed.

 

[BantamMenace]

I actually don't think this is a bad idea at all. The rail users group would argue, however, that if you could find a path in the peak you should have no problem finding a path off peak. It's doesn't help that tje stock they use is limited to 75mph, when the Aire Valley line is 90+.



This is not an advantage by any measure and would lead to a number of possible journeys being lost (and it would make it more difficult for me to go to the pub )



Indeed.

This could be helped by the new 120 units order. Rumours are growing that they'll be bimode so they could be 75mph units with a 90/100mph capability under wires.

 

[30907]

That good and regular bus service cost £7 each way! No one other than those with the free passes used it and consequently the company went bust.

Ouch! Many years since I used it....deleted good from post.

 

[ashworth]

I know the rail users' group were up in arms when it was last suggested, but I still think the best solution for the Little North Western would be to run Morecambe/Lancaster-Skipton only, with an increase in frequency, perhaps with a morning and evening peak train to Leeds.

I get the arguments against it- they don't want to lose their direct trains- but with intelligent planning it could be a cross-platform interchange at Skipton and there would be more journey opportunities.

A more regular Lancaster - Skipton service could be the answer. I don't think it probably needs a train more than every 2 hours but anything would be more useful than the current service with some gaps of well over 3 hours without a train.

Skipton is a large market town that people from the sort of communities between there and Lancaster like to travel into on market days. Currently the service is almost useless and too expensive for locals wanting to visit Skipton. There is no mid morning arrival in Skipton. Those people who do arrive in Skipton at 12.10 have less than 2 hours before their return service at 1401 which is not really long enough. However, the next train is not until 1725, which is too long for anyone visiting Skipton for shopping purposes. It is a little bit better for people from local stations who want to travel to and from Lancaster.

Perhaps it should be run as a 2 hourly local service serving the local communities with some lower priced Off Peak Day Return tickets available into Skipton or Lancaster. If there really is a great need for a though train to Leeds there could be just one through train to arrive in Leeds earlier in the morning and depart later in the evening than the current services do.

 

[BantamMenace]

A more regular Lancaster - Skipton service could be the answer. I don't think it probably needs a train more than every 2 hours but anything would be more useful than the current service with some gaps of well over 3 hours without a train.

Skipton is a large market town that people from the sort of communities between there and Lancaster like to travel into on market days. Currently the service is almost useless and too expensive for locals wanting to visit Skipton. There is no mid morning arrival in Skipton. Those people who do arrive in Skipton at 12.10 have less than 2 hours before their return service at 1401 which is not really long enough. However, the next train is not until 1725, which is too long for anyone visiting Skipton for shopping purposes. It is a little bit better for people from local stations who want to travel to and from Lancaster.

Perhaps it should be run as a 2 hourly local service serving the local communities with some lower priced Off Peak Day Return tickets available into Skipton or Lancaster. If there really is a great need for a though train to Leeds there could be just one through train to arrive in Leeds earlier in the morning and depart later in the evening than the current services do.

Completely agree. 0600 out of Lancaster (originating from somewhere like Preston or Morecambe) and then every 2 hours to Skipton but advertised on the departure boards, tannoy and destination blinds as 'Skipton for Leeds'. Ensure its scheduled to arrive in Skipton about 6-12 minutes before a Leeds bound train is scheduled to depart.

Lancaster to Skipton is 1 hour 15 minutes.

Unit 1

06:00 out of Lancaster can form a 07:30 return from Skipton, arriving in Lancaster around 08:45, Morecambe around 09:00 and Heysham around 09:15. After a 15 minute layover it'd leave Heysham around 09:30 and be back in Lancaster to form a 10:00 departure for Skipton.
This therefore leaves Lancaster for Skipton once every 4 hours at 06:00, 10:00, 14:00, 18:00 and 22:00 ending in Skipton around 23:15.

Unit 2

Depart Skipton at 05:30 arriving in Lancaster around 06:45, Morecambe around 07:00 and Heysham around 07:15. After a 15 minute layover it'd leave Heysham around 07:30 and be back in Lancaster to form a 08:00 departure for Skipton.
This leaves Lancaster for Skipton once every 4 hours at 08:00, 12:00, 16:00 and 20:00 then forming a 21:30 out of Skipton arriving in Lancaster at 22:45 (then onto Preston/Blackpool for stabling).

This allows Heysham an all day 2-hourly service, which i know it doesnt need but it fits the diagrams perfectly. It creates two self contained diagrams (which switch units daily) giving the Bentham Line 9 services per day at 2-hourly intervals with one unit starting in Skipton where there is stabling and crews and another unit can run from Preston or Blackpool to form the 06:00 from Lancaster.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't like the idea of removing the through trains. I don't mind changing trains myself, but the normal's seem to like them.

Perhaps a compromise where the last Leeds - Morecambe train is turned around to make a late evening departure to Skipton, connecting to an electric. This could then connect with an early morning electric to form a first service back to Lancaster. Result, the line still has through trains, but the timetable is extended using split services.

 

[Iskra]

As a former regular user of the Bentham/S & C lines, I think splitting the services at Skipton would be a terrible idea. Removing the biggest potential markets (Leeds and Bradford) is a poor idea.

All the Bentham line needs to be a success, is a regular service and an early first and a later final departure in each direction. S & C also needs a later evening service- especially since its the most direct route Glasgow-Leeds.

Splitting the Bentham line services would make it a less attractive option. It's currently the cheapest route between Leeds and the North West and would lose its attractiveness if split IMO. However, the lines main pitfall (after poor service) is lack of awareness of its existence. It's both practical and scenic so no reason why this should be the case. Northern ought to advertise it better and the lines community partnership is poor compared to the Settle and Carlisle's, it must be said.

 

[Starmill]

With respect, a frequent service with long operating hours is exactly what all lines need. They also need a solid destination (which these lines have, as do many others) and a strong customer base along the rest of their length.

 

[Ianigsy]

I have a London Midland Region timetable for summer 1972 (when I was born, so I was pleased to give the VCT at Ingrow a quid or two for it!). Eight or nine trains a day from West Yorkshire to Morecambe (the last one a 2108 Leeds-Heysham arriving at 2319 for the Belfast ferry) but also a summer dated Bradford-Morecambe and a SO from Sheffield.

It's a different story on the S&C, though- the last northbound Leeds-Carlisle train (the Thames-Clyde Express) arrives in Carlisle at 1556, nearly two hours before the last southbound at 1745!

 

[yorksrob]

I have a London Midland Region timetable for summer 1972 (when I was born, so I was pleased to give the VCT at Ingrow a quid or two for it!). Eight or nine trains a day from West Yorkshire to Morecambe (the last one a 2108 Leeds-Heysham arriving at 2319 for the Belfast ferry) but also a summer dated Bradford-Morecambe and a SO from Sheffield.

It's a different story on the S&C, though- the last northbound Leeds-Carlisle train (the Thames-Clyde Express) arrives in Carlisle at 1556, nearly two hours before the last southbound at 1745!

Out of interest, when was the last Lancaster - Leeds train ? I often find the 19:20 or so final departure quite limiting these days.

Perhaps its a sign of changing tastes, with Yorkshire folk preferring walks in the Dales to days at the seaside nowadays !

 

[Ianigsy]

That's an interesting point- Lancaster isn't served, I think because that it only really came in once the route had switched to DMU operation in the 1980s. Last weekday train from Morecambe to Leeds is 1940 and as far as I can see, in order to make that connection you'd have to leave Lancaster at 1847. At the time I'd guess Morecambe was the market and the university at Lancaster hadn't really established itself.

On Sundays however there are footnotes to say that the trains do serve Lancaster, and the last departure for Leeds (presumably for the daytrippers) is a 2015 which has two reversals en route because it goes to Bradford before carrying on to Leeds (it takes an hour from Skipton as against 48 minutes for everything else, so presumably it didn't split).

 

[yorksrob]

That's an interesting point- Lancaster isn't served, I think because that it only really came in once the route had switched to DMU operation in the 1980s. Last weekday train from Morecambe to Leeds is 1940 and as far as I can see, in order to make that connection you'd have to leave Lancaster at 1847. At the time I'd guess Morecambe was the market and the university at Lancaster hadn't really established itself.

On Sundays however there are footnotes to say that the trains do serve Lancaster, and the last departure for Leeds (presumably for the daytrippers) is a 2015 which has two reversals en route because it goes to Bradford before carrying on to Leeds (it takes an hour from Skipton as against 48 minutes for everything else, so presumably it didn't split).

That is interesting. I thought they went via Morecambe, but I wasn't aware that they didn't serve Lancaster at all ! 18:47 is even worse than now.

Lancaster came into more prominence as a connection point when they were thinking of closing the S&C. I'm still surprised at the poor connections though as Lancaster has always been the key market town in the area and presumably residents in Bentham etc would have had cause to go there. Even Lancaster Uni was pretty much up and running by 1970.

Then, as now, the Sunday service was slightly better than on other days for some reason.

 

[30907]

Remember that Morecambe services ran via Lancaster Green Ayre pre Beeching, but even then Bentham to Lancaster would have been an insignificant flow (was there ANY commuting?).

The major flows were day trippers and holidaymakers to Morecambe, boat passengers for the IoM and Belfast, and IIRC college students into Skipton (I believe the last explains the current "peak" timetable!).

By 1991 or 92 when I took a group from Cononley to Morecambe (the trains were all stations pre electrification) the day trip market had declined drastically, and so had Morecambe, but there was by then a significant Friday and Sunday student flow, Lancaster and St Martins being very popular choices from Airedale. The Craven-Leeds commuter market was only just beginning to grow (I connect it with the migration of civil servants from London to Leeds!).

 

[Bantamzen]

I know the rail users' group were up in arms when it was last suggested, but I still think the best solution for the Little North Western would be to run Morecambe/Lancaster-Skipton only, with an increase in frequency, perhaps with a morning and evening peak train to Leeds.

I get the arguments against it- they don't want to lose their direct trains- but with intelligent planning it could be a cross-platform interchange at Skipton and there would be more journey opportunities.

The only advantage to splitting a Carlisle train at Skipton would be that the Carlisle trains could then run fast to Settle.

The issue is capacity down the Aire Valley and that's an issue that isn't going to be solved any time soon.

But it would also mean a loss in capacity, albeit slight, between Skipton and Leeds, resulting in people connecting with the Morecombe train at Skipton from further down the Aire Valley would have to shoehorn themselves onto another service. All you would achieve would be to move the problem from the Leeds-Morecombe service onto a Leeds-Skipton. And whilst changing trains may not be an issue for some, for the less regular passengers all you would need would be a couple of delays resulting in missing the connection, and into their cars they would go. The last thing this line needs is to put potential passengers off!

 

[bluenoxid]

Very upsetting for some but could a bus run via Settle serve the route effectively on some flows rather than use a DMU.

 

[yorksrob]

Very upsetting for some but could a bus run via Settle serve the route effectively on some flows rather than use a DMU.

Ok, who got post 79 in the 'how long before someone mentions bustitution on the Little North Western thread' sweepstake?

 

[crehld]

Very upsetting for some but could a bus run via Settle serve the route effectively on some flows rather than use a DMU.

No. You'd be reducing capacity which is already stretched to the limit and decreasing journey times.
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Ok, who got post 79 in the 'how long before someone mentions bustitution on the Little North Western thread' sweepstake?

Not me unfortunately. I don't know why this keeps coming up!

 

[BantamMenace]

Very upsetting for some but could a bus run via Settle serve the route effectively on some flows rather than use a DMU.

The route also serves as a key route between the S&C and Carnforth for WCR who run a popular and frequent tourist service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Very upsetting for some but could a bus run via Settle serve the route effectively on some flows rather than use a DMU.

There are many lessons to learn from Beeching, but one of the key ones is that bustitution doesn't work.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If I recall correctly the last signal box on the route was closed because of structural defects although I can't for the life of me remember where that was! The fact that its the longest block section in the country won't exactly do wonders for the timetable!

 

[yorksrob]

If I recall correctly the last signal box on the route was closed because of structural defects although I can't for the life of me remember where that was! The fact that its the longest block section in the country won't exactly do wonders for the timetable!

It was Wennington.

However, given the fact that the route is double track, would the long block section preclude an hourly service?

 

[BantamMenace]

It was Wennington.

However, given the fact that the route is double track, would the long block section preclude an hourly service?

The section takes roughly 40 minutes to traverse so could easily support 1tph in each direction, not that the demand is anywhere near that.

On paper a train could travel in each direction every 40 minutes, in reality probably every 50 mins to 1 hour.

 

[bluenoxid]

No. You'd be reducing capacity which is already stretched to the limit and decreasing journey times.
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Not me unfortunately. I don't know why this keeps coming up!

I was suggesting a bus instead of a second DMU.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was suggesting a bus instead of a second DMU.

Ah... If we were capable of integrated transport in this country, that would be a possibility!

 

[yorksrob]

Ah... If we were capable of integrated transport in this country, that would be a possibility!

Integrated or not, it would lose this passenger for one. Back to the already overcrowded trans-pennine service for me.

 

[TUC]

Not sure how far back you're going, but they've not been advertised as "York via Harrogate" within living memory! I used to be a regular on the line in the late 1980s/early 90s, and they were advertised as Poppleton trains even then.

They seem to be getting a bit canny with the boards at Leeds recently, presumably in an attempt to spread peak loadings between services. The trouble is that most regular commuters know better, and still insist on catching the first train home - even if it means standing most of the way despite there being seats on another service a few minutes later. The Skipton corridor is particularly prone to this: the 'fast' trains to beyond Skipton depart from Leeds a few minutes ahead of the all-stations. Commuters for Shipley, Bingley, Keighley and Skipton catch the Carlisle/Morecambe trains because it gets them home a little earlier than catching the all-shacks to Skipton would. Handy for some, less so for those who have no choice of train because they are going to somewhere north of Skipton.

I can see the opposite problem occuring too where someone has told their child/elderly parent to get on the xxxx time service, only for them to get to the station and find no such service being displsyed.