1963 Southampton to Wembley

[Union St]

Good evening everyone.
Apologies, I know nothing about railways.
I am an author working on my second book, a novel set in 1963.
In the story I need to transport a large box from Southampton docks to a business park in Wembley in 1963. Can you help me with any information concerning lines that might have been used (it was all British Rail, right), and I'm thinking the train must have gone through Clapham Junction. I also believe the best station near Wembley would be Wembley Central. Well, any information concerning the lines used, trains used, etc. would be much appreciated.
Thank you so much.
pm if you want to see my first book - I'm not here to sell that.
Regards, Sean

 

[randyrippley]

How big a box?
What kind of contents - fragile? Perishable?
Business or residential?
Station to station or door to door?
Urgency of delivery?

I don't have any answers, but those who do will need more info from you to usefully reply

 

[Union St]

oh, yes, you're right. It's gold bullion, so two or three pallets in a wagon, rather than a box, I suggest. It would have loaded alongside the docks in Southampton and unloaded onto a truck at Wembley Central for a couple of miles transit to fourth or fifth street in the exhibition gardens. It would need to go directly there and would have been a planned movement. I've been studying old maps of the area (Wembley) and Central seems to be the best station and I gather trains ran to there from Clapham Junction.

 

[150219]

The route that may be taken is from Southampton, Eastleigh, Winchester, Feltham, Brentford, Kew and Acton. Depending on your needs, the service may be routed into the marshalling yard Neasden Sidings (near Wembley Stadium) or Brent Sidings. Long distance mixed goods trains were generally handled at bespoke marshalling yards rather than specific stations in the 1960's, with local 'target' or 'trip' workings covering the intermediate stations for local goods trains. Wembley Stadium had it's own station until 1969, which is now closed (not to be confused with the current Wembley Stadium station, which was originally called Wembley Hill) and was situated conveniently for the former Empire exhibition site, which was mostly derelict by the 1960s.

 

[30907]

The railway had bullion vans. I know no detail but they would have run in passenger or parcels trains. Southampton (Western or Eastern Docks or Terminus to Clapham Yard mist likely the first leg. If someone on here has access to working timetables for the year they may be able to help. If not I have 1958/59 at home....

 

[Taunton]

My father was in the bank in Bristol in 1939, shortly before going into the military, when the gold reserves held in the Bank of England in The City were distributed for safe keeping, a few boxes of gold bars to each bank branch strong room around the country. It was in wooden boxes with rope handles, of appropriate weight that needed two (reasonably strong) men to carry each one, the idea being that one man couldn't make off with it and even two couldn't outrun a policeman …

They were apparently taken in the van of passenger trains, under guard, transferred to a police van at Temple Meads, and taken to the several banks participating that day. There they had to stagger down the steep stairs to the basement with it. All signed for, box serial numbers noted, and the BofE men went back by train to London.

By the time he was demobbed they had been taken back, presumably by the reverse process.

 

[Union St]

Thank you, gentlemen. This is all interesting stuff. It's a novel, so does not have to be truly accurate, but I like to be in the broad range of possibility. I'm aware of bullion trains lifting from Union Castle going to the Bank of England, and I'm pretty sure they went to Clapham J to Waterloo, then by truck. However, my story is of a private sale to Johnson Matthey who had a facility in the Exhibition Gardens just to the east of the stadium at Wembley. I thought about Wembley Central, but it doesn't indeed look like a station where once might unload goods.

 

[randyrippley]

In the late 1960s Modern Railways published a photo of one of the mk1 coach dedicated bullion conversions. Very much a mystery vehicle, not publicly acknowledged for years. I think it was at Waterloo

 

[randyrippley]

Thank you, gentlemen. This is all interesting stuff. It's a novel, so does not have to be truly accurate, but I like to be in the broad range of possibility. I'm aware of bullion trains lifting from Union Castle going to the Bank of England, and I'm pretty sure they went to Clapham J to Waterloo, then by truck. However, my story is of a private sale to Johnson Matthey who had a facility in the Exhibition Gardens just to the east of the stadium at Wembley. I thought about Wembley Central, but it doesn't indeed look like a station where once might unload goods.

By the 1960s JM may well have moved their storage to Royston.... Something to check

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thank you, gentlemen. This is all interesting stuff. It's a novel, so does not have to be truly accurate, but I like to be in the broad range of possibility. I'm aware of bullion trains lifting from Union Castle going to the Bank of England, and I'm pretty sure they went to Clapham J to Waterloo, then by truck. However, my story is of a private sale to Johnson Matthey who had a facility in the Exhibition Gardens just to the east of the stadium at Wembley. I thought about Wembley Central, but it doesn't indeed look like a station where once might unload goods.

The nearest working goods yards (with delivery vehicles etc) in 1963 would have been Watford (Junction) and Camden or Kings Cross Goods.

A wagon from the docks would have been worked by a Southampton to Norwood Junction freight train , where it would connect to a service bound for Willesden Brent sidings .....(and then a local trip working to the chosen yard)

 

[randyrippley]

photos and numbers of the five mk1 bullion coaches
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108390-gold-bullion-by-ecml/

 

[Union St]

Randy. Yes, they did move to Royston, but I am confident that in 1963 they were also in Wembley, which kind of fits better into my story. I knew it would be difficult to get there from Southampton, but you have opened up much research for me (especially Norwood and Willesden). This is all very informative stuff, gents. I really appreciate your thoughts.

 

[randyrippley]

another photo, this one had a guards compartment

 

[randyrippley]

this thread seems to suggest they were used in regular passenger trains
http://www.departmentals.com/departmental/025030

if so the likely route for the story would be for the coach to be attached to a Southampton-Waterloo express, and trucked in an armed convoy to Wembley from there

 

[Clarence Yard]

Significant amounts of bullion, whether for the Bank of England or another party, would be transported in passenger rated stock, either specialised bullion vans (the ones pictured above replaced pre-nationalisation stock in 1966/7) or full passenger brake vans. They were always accompanied by BT police officers, unarmed in 1963.

A bullion load from Southampton (a common arrival point for bullion from South Africa) would be transported either by special train or by putting a van at the rear of a passenger train. It would arrive at Waterloo and the usual place for unloading sensitive loads at London Termini would be on a platform by the appropriate cab road, which there is one at Waterloo and this used to deal with the bullion traffic coming up from Southampton. If a van was attached to a passenger train, it would get shunted out at Waterloo and put on that platform road - shunt engines doing these moves would often have a BT Police officer on board!

You would never transport significant amounts of bullion to odd yards or stations, irrespective of the end user. It would always be subject to special handling and escort arrangements.

From Waterloo there would be an accompanied police escort of a usually unmarked van to destination. If it was Wembley, the Met would escort to destination and ensure it was safely delivered. I would suspect the Met escort would have involved an armed officer or two in an escorting police car, even in 1963.

The road move to Wembley would usually be timed to take place sometime in the evening or more likely the early hours of the morning, for obvious reasons. The receiving premises would have to be open for the arrival and I suspect a local Met police officer would be on patrol outside.

When the coaches pictured above arrived on the scene in the middle 1960’s, there were some changes to how the bullion was transported in the UK but Waterloo still saw London area bullion traffic from South Africa via Southampton.

 

[Union St]

Thank you for your responses. Do I presume that the only place to unload bullion in London (from the south at least), HAD to be Waterloo? There's no chance it might have taken the routes suggested by ChiefPlanner?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, Plymouth bullion traffic used to come into Paddington, usually with one of the two specially built GWR bullion vans.

Liverpool bullion traffic used to come to Euston and I know ECML traffic used to go to Kings Cross or Liverpool St. When the freightliner terminals came into use from 1966 onwards, the ECML traffic used to be routed to/from Stratford LIFT.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thank you for your responses. Do I presume that the only place to unload bullion in London (from the south at least), HAD to be Waterloo? There's no chance it might have taken the routes suggested by ChiefPlanner?

To be honest , using a standard freight service would be very unusual. (but i put it up as a straw man) - sensitive and vulnerable traffic would have the special arrangements , and done under strict safety protocols as Clarence Yard mentions.

 

[Union St]

Thank you again. So, to recap, if I come into Southampton (which I have to do), the bullion would have been loaded in the docks and taken by Southern? bullion van to Waterloo via Clapham J? Do you think it might have been added to a freight or postal train, or to a passenger train? And what kind of engine might it have had? Note: this is BEFORE the great train robbery of august 1963.

 

[Union St]

Would the Post Office have been involved (this is not Bank of England, remember)?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thank you again. So, to recap, if I come into Southampton (which I have to do), the bullion would have been loaded in the docks and taken by Southern? bullion van to Waterloo via Clapham J? Do you think it might have been added to a freight or postal train, or to a passenger train? And what kind of engine might it have had? Note: this is BEFORE the great train robbery of august 1963.

There were no "scheduled" passenger trains into the docks , as services were arranged to connect into and out of shipping departures , and there was a very well organised "special services" planning team which clearly liaised very well with the local Docks management team and local railway operating management. It would be very unusual and not cost effective to run a special train for one bullion van (but not impossible if so the forwarder paid for it) - there would be a plan therefore to add it either onto a dock starting passenger train which would be a "Boat" train in the daily short term plan , - OR - it could be tripped across to Southampton Central - a do-able but slightly awkward move , and then attach it onto an ex Bournemouth - Waterloo normal passenger or mail train. (which would be a regular train in the working timetable)

This was the last years of Southern main line steam , and there would be (generally) a Bulleid Pacific on such trains , - though a Standard Class 5 or an older Southern 4-6-0 might be used.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Let’s say it was a single van load. It would have been unloaded at the docks into a full brake or a bullion van. It would then have been attached to a passenger train, either one running from the Ocean Terminal itself - they were specials just for the boats or the nearby passenger stations (Terminus or Central) and sent to Waterloo, passing through Clapham Junction shortly before it arrived. It would either be on the front or rear of the train, for ease of either attachment at Southampton or detachment at Waterloo.

The GPO would not have been involved at all and it would never get attached to a freight train. The BT Police also covered the docks so would have known about the arrangements between ship and train and may have even been present during the unloading/loading.

I’m not sure the BT Police on the train would have had any radio telephone communication in those days but any Police car escort from Waterloo probably would have. One of those cumbersome battery powered sets you see in those 1950’s films, possibly!

 

[Union St]

Excellent stuff, gents. If you're in England I'm sure you're ready for bed. I have some more research to do, but your remarks have been very, very helpful. Thank you so much. Is it worth me checking on Railway Forum, or would I find you guys on there too?
Again, thank you so much (for now).
Regards
Sean in Washington DC.

 

[Cowley]

Excellent stuff, gents. If you're in England I'm sure you're ready for bed. I have some more research to do, but your remarks have been very, very helpful. Thank you so much. Is it worth me checking on Railway Forum, or would I find you guys on there too?
Again, thank you so much (for now).
Regards
Sean in Washington DC.

I must say Sean that I think you’ve struck metaphorical gold with some of these replies.
It’s been very interesting to read about.

 

[randyrippley]

Just in case its important.........note that the bullion vans were built without end corridor connections. so there was no access to the rest of the train

 

[Union St]

Yes, important, thank you.

 

[30907]

I've got to my timetables now.

1. For Clapham Junc to Wembley C I have no info, and on reflection I am not sure where a Bullion Van might have been detached for unloading there. However, I'd be fairly sure there were parcels trains heading from Clapham Yard to Willesden Junc and beyond if you want that scenario. Main line trains into Waterloo mostly worked out empty to Clapham Yard, so a transfer would have been no problem.

2. However, I agree that Waterloo would be the normal place to offload - back then there was a wide roadway between platforms 10 and 11 plus a couple of short dock sidings at the outer end.

3. Plausible trains would be (1961, but little changed between 1950 and 1965!)
the Up Mails, 1.10am Southampton Terminus to Waterloo 3.48am; the empties then went out to Clapham Yard at 4.28am
6.4am Southampton Terminus to Waterloo 8.22am
7.3am Southampton Docks to Waterloo 8.59am - this was a cross-channel boat connection and ran Wed and Fri mornings.
9.10pm Southampton Terminus to Eastleigh then 10.15 Eastleigh to Clapham Jn 1236am, Waterloo 12.48am.
I would put my money on the first or last because of the arrival times at Waterloo.
(There were plenty of trains up from Southampton Central, but that would have been much less convenient.)

On locomotives - the only ex Southern Railway type still in service in 1963 was the S15 class goods engine, which would hardly ever have reached Waterloo, so the BR Standard class 5 or West Country pacific are safe bets.

 

[Union St]

Thank you so much. Wow! I am amazed at the knowledge available on this forum. The authenticity you can supply to a writer is extremely beneficial. Randy already posted a picture of a bullion van, and I've found a few others similar to that. Do you have any pictures of the engines that might have been used?
So, I'm going to Waterloo. Does anyone know of the bullion vans/trucks used for the cross-London drive? (I realize that it's outside of the realm of this forum, but you guys are a feast of knowledge!).
Thank you again.

 

[30907]

Thank you so much. Wow! I am amazed at the knowledge available on this forum. The authenticity you can supply to a writer is extremely beneficial. Randy already posted a picture of a bullion van, and I've found a few others similar to that. Do you have any pictures of the engines that might have been used?
So, I'm going to Waterloo. Does anyone know of the bullion vans/trucks used for the cross-London drive? (I realize that it's outside of the realm of this forum, but you guys are a feast of knowledge!).
Thank you again.

Google images using the class names I gave. A little detail - the Standard Class 5s on the Southern Region carried names taken from the Southern Railway's "King Arthur" class which, as I mentioned, had all been withdrawn by then.

 

[randyrippley]

Thank you so much. Wow! I am amazed at the knowledge available on this forum. The authenticity you can supply to a writer is extremely beneficial. Randy already posted a picture of a bullion van, and I've found a few others similar to that. Do you have any pictures of the engines that might have been used?
So, I'm going to Waterloo. Does anyone know of the bullion vans/trucks used for the cross-London drive? (I realize that it's outside of the realm of this forum, but you guys are a feast of knowledge!).
Thank you again.

The likely locos were known as "West Country" or "Battle of Britain" pacifics, depending on which naming batch they were in. They started off with air-smoothed boiler cladding, this was later removed on about half. Wiki page about them at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_West_Country_and_Battle_of_Britain_classes
The loco used on our hypothetical train would likely have been based at Eastleigh shed - I suspect someone here can come up with a list of likely candidate locos from the shed allocation

As others have said, it may have used a Standard 5 - wiki page is at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_5