1963 Southampton to Wembley

[ChiefPlanner]

I've got to my timetables now.

1. For Clapham Junc to Wembley C I have no info, and on reflection I am not sure where a Bullion Van might have been detached for unloading there. However, I'd be fairly sure there were parcels trains heading from Clapham Yard to Willesden Junc and beyond if you want that scenario. Main line trains into Waterloo mostly worked out empty to Clapham Yard, so a transfer would have been no problem.

2. However, I agree that Waterloo would be the normal place to offload - back then there was a wide roadway between platforms 10 and 11 plus a couple of short dock sidings at the outer end.

3. Plausible trains would be (1961, but little changed between 1950 and 1965!)
the Up Mails, 1.10am Southampton Terminus to Waterloo 3.48am; the empties then went out to Clapham Yard at 4.28am
6.4am Southampton Terminus to Waterloo 8.22am
7.3am Southampton Docks to Waterloo 8.59am - this was a cross-channel boat connection and ran Wed and Fri mornings.
9.10pm Southampton Terminus to Eastleigh then 10.15 Eastleigh to Clapham Jn 1236am, Waterloo 12.48am.
I would put my money on the first or last because of the arrival times at Waterloo.
(There were plenty of trains up from Southampton Central, but that would have been much less convenient.)

On locomotives - the only ex Southern Railway type still in service in 1963 was the S15 class goods engine, which would hardly ever have reached Waterloo, so the BR Standard class 5 or West Country pacific are safe bets.

Impressive research , I really have to say . Well done indeed.

 

[DerekC]

As regards bullion trucks - there is a little article in this copy of The Scotsman about a 1959 one being sold on eBay - that might give you a thread to follow:

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle-...n-van-attracts-thousands-of-bidders-1-3725114

A VINTAGE Bank of Scotland van which was used to deliver money and gold from the Royal Mint in London to its branches in central Edinburgh at a top speed of 45 miles an hour has gone up for sale on eBay. ….

 

[randyrippley]

found some pictures of a model supposed British Rail bullion truck of the late 1950s / early 1960s
Its a Commer (UK subsidiary of Chrysler), BR used a lot of their trucks

Of course its a big presumption that a BR truck would be used - JM may well have had their own fleet

 

[Snow1964]

The vans used to come right into Waterloo, there was a road in the centre. Boat trains and something special like this would have been directed to one of the tracks either side (11 or 12). Road Vans could then have been backed up close.

A Boots branch has been built on the Central roadway (but the vehicle ramp to Street level is still visible behind) At Waterloo.

I am sure short parcels trains (and newspaper trains) also used Holborn Viaduct station and the office block built in 1960s at front of station had a vehicle passageway to the concourse.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The likely locos were known as "West Country" or "Battle of Britain" pacifics, depending on which naming batch they were in. They started off with air-smoothed boiler cladding, this was later removed on about half. Wiki page about them at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_West_Country_and_Battle_of_Britain_classes
The loco used on our hypothetical train would likely have been based at Eastleigh shed - I suspect someone here can come up with a list of likely candidate locos from the shed allocation

As others have said, it may have used a Standard 5 - wiki page is at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_5

Or possibly one of the many workings that Nine Elms loco shed at the time , I am in contact with a very experienced (and still working !) , fireman of the era , and he could (or a diligent internet search) would find a list of suitable engines of the era. I get the impression that Nine Elms had the lion's share of the main line work at the time.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Good evening everyone.
Apologies, I know nothing about railways.
I am an author working on my second book, a novel set in 1963.
In the story I need to transport a large box from Southampton docks to a business park in Wembley in 1963. Can you help me with any information concerning lines that might have been used (it was all British Rail, right), and I'm thinking the train must have gone through Clapham Junction. I also believe the best station near Wembley would be Wembley Central. Well, any information concerning the lines used, trains used, etc. would be much appreciated.
Thank you so much.
pm if you want to see my first book - I'm not here to sell that.
Regards, Sean

Dear OP - asssume you mean to write: It was all British Rail, right?

I've just skimmed this thread, but apart from the missing ? I don't think anyone has noted that - No it wasn't. British Rail was the brand first applied around 1965.

Before that, both the brand and legal name was British Railways.

 

[randyrippley]

Or possibly one of the many workings that Nine Elms loco shed at the time , I am in contact with a very experienced (and still working !) , fireman of the era , and he could (or a diligent internet search) would find a list of suitable engines of the era. I get the impression that Nine Elms had the lion's share of the main line work at the time.

you got me thinking, just found this shed bashing site
http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2018/01/nine-elms-1957-1967.html
you can work out partial allocations from it, so on 31 March 1963 the following were among the locos allocated there

BR 5MT 4-6-0
73083 Pendragon
73088 Joyous Gard
73111 King Uther
73112 Morgan le Fay
73114 Etarre
73116 Iseult
73117 Vivien
73118 King Leodegrance

West Country 4-6-2
34007 Wadebridge
34017 Ilfracombe
34018 Axminster
34031 Torrington
34093 Saunton
34094 Mortehoe

Battle of Britain 4-6-2
34064 Fighter Command
34082 615 Squadron
34088 213 Squadron

 

[randyrippley]

Dear OP - asssume you mean to write: It was all British Rail, right?

I've just skimmed this thread, but apart from the missing ? I don't think anyone has noted that - No it wasn't. British Rail was the brand first applied around 1965.

Before that, both the brand and legal name was British Railways.

Important point that because its before the advent of the BR blue/grey livery........
So a class 5 loco would have been black, a pacific green, and the coaches maroon or more likely green - or a mix of both

 

[70014IronDuke]

Important point that because its before the advent of the BR blue/grey livery........
So a class 5 loco would have been black, a pacific green, and the coaches maroon or more likely green - or a mix of both

Indeed. From my memories of trainspotting at Basingstoke a year or two later - I'd say all green.

BTW OP, if you could just put the book into 1962, you could choose to have a Lord Nelson, Schools or even a 'genuine' King Arthur (rather than a Standard 5 imposter) pull the train. And all would be green - sadly, GWR green, but you can't have everything.

Otherwise, learn to use punctuation correctly before you write yer next bloddy book

 

[30907]

Or possibly one of the many workings that Nine Elms loco shed at the time , I am in contact with a very experienced (and still working !) , fireman of the era , and he could (or a diligent internet search) would find a list of suitable engines of the era. I get the impression that Nine Elms had the lion's share of the main line work at the time.

I've accessed the Eastleigh and Bournemouth workings for 1958 online (again, workings didn't shift between sheds that much.... Eastleigh had the two morning peak trains I suggested, Bournemouth nothing, so Nine Elms 70A is definitely the most likely shed for the mails and the parcels.

EDIT: the up Mails was a Nine Elms Merchant Navy in 1958, but I can't find the parcels.

 

[Union St]

Gentlemen,
Apologies for my tardy reply. I am still on the case and still grateful for your input.
British Rail! – yikes! Big error! In my first book neither I nor my, admittedly American, copy editor noticed that the jubilee in 1977 was Silver and not diamond as I had written. We all make mistakes!
I’m reading from the Chief Planner that the bullion always went directly from the ship to the bullion van. It would never sit in a warehouse awaiting customs, or anything like that?
Also, no freight trains involved and no GPO.
Thank you for the time table, 30907 (that’s probably a name that you guys understand and of which I have no clue!). Thank you for the Wiki pages. I had found a few bullion vans (you say ‘vans’, yes?), but they were blue and grey, but now it looks like maroon or green would be better. Derick, I saw the bullion truck on ebay, and I also saw this one which somehow looks more authentic, but I’m not sure of the dates. Randy, I also saw the toy truck pics – again, doesn’t look very butch, does it? I wrote to the BofE and TM, but no replies yet. Snow, good info about Waterloo station – that’s where I have to go, for sure. I love the Nine Elms link – it fits well within my story, actually. Sorry, can’t put the caper back to 1962, but I appreciate the suggestion. 30907 – just a little confused because you mention mails and parcels, but I thought everyone agreed that the PO would not be involved?

 

[randyrippley]

BR had a network of station-to-station (and door-to-door) parcels services independent of the post office. These were hived off into various subsidiary companies: Pickfords, British Road Services / BRS, and National Carriers / NCL. These were some of the earliest parts of BR to be sold off / privatised - for instance NCL eventually became a major part of DHL.
The BR parcels services predated modern couriers services by some years and were especially suitable for time-sensitive or perishable goods, but were also the only option for domestic deliveries - e.g. students taking trunks to university.
On some routes the parcels were taken on passenger trains, on others dedicated services using bogie parcels vans.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

"Nine Elms" is of course near the new American Embassy in London , such has the area changed.

Basically , the Post Office had access to all passenger trains through the UK for the carriage of mail bags , but there were special mail trains which were solely for their use and often conveyed special sorting vehicles. Parcels trains conveyed general (what you would call "express packages ?) , but might also have carried overspill mail loads. There were often huge quantities of mailbags carried , especially at high season times.

I commend to you a recent book by Graham Satchwell - a very senior retired British Transport Police Officer , who started as a constable within Southampton Docks - "Great Train Robbery Confidential" - ISBN 978 07509 9232 9 - published 2019 - who describes in some detail the port handling arrangements for bullion , - see especially Chapter 16 where options for robbing bullion were explored , and discounted for a raid on a postal /mail train. (£9.99 off Amazon or preferably another bookseller) - he has another book on his career , which goes into some detail on Soton Docks - "An Inspector Recalls - memoirs of a railway detective" - 2016 - ISBN 978 0 7509 6640 5

Excellent material , and superb underpinning knowledge. Do read them. (if you can)

 

[randyrippley]

The toy truck certainly doesn't look very butch but is very typical of BR delivery trucks of that time. Whether its really a model of a bullion truck or just a standard delivery truck I don't know.
If JM relied on BR to deliver the bullion then maybe a truck like this would be involved, but I have a suspicion that JM would have used their own vehicles

 

[70014IronDuke]

.. On locomotives - the only ex Southern Railway type still in service in 1963 was the S15 class goods engine, which would hardly ever have reached Waterloo, so the BR Standard class 5 or West Country pacific are safe bets.

Some locomotive pedantry.

I think 30907 meant to say "the only ex Southern Railway type 4-6-0 still in service in 1963" was the S15 - as he was trying to correct an earlier post about such locos. The last King Arthurs and Lord Nelsons (both 4-6-0s), along with the last Schools (4-4-0s) having been withdrawn in December 1962. <sob, sob>
In practice, it's pretty unlikely any such locos would have been diagrammed for your train after about mid-1962.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

If you select this one - 73118 King Leodegrance - you'll have to make it prior to 1967, as she was broken up at Cashmore, Newport, during that year.

 

[30907]

Thank you for the time table, 30907 (that’s probably a name that you guys understand and of which I have no clue!). ... just a little confused because you mention mails and parcels, but I thought everyone agreed that the PO would not be involved?

My username would be understood by readers familiar with Southern Railway/Region locomotives; as 70014IronDuke correctly says, it had been withdrawn by 1963 (and yes, I did mean 4-6-0s and have corrected myself.)
ChiefPlanner and randyrippley have answered the general point about mail and parcels trains.
The Dorchester/Southampton Mails, like many others, also carried passengers and "ordinary" vans as required, and as it reversed at Soton Terminus there was time to attach a Bullion van without delaying the Royal Mail!

 

[Union St]

OK, so I’m going to connect the bullion van onto one of the passenger trains going into Waterloo. I’ve been looking for the place where special trucks might have come in – particularly where they enter the station. I know this picture is not applicable, but I sense it was something like this (attached).

Chief – I seemed to have read so many books on The Great Train Robbery – I feel I know the perpetrators quite well, but I’ve not read the books by Graham Satchell, but I probably will. Thank you for the recommendation.
Randy; still waiting on something from TM, but they may not reply - I have BR lorries as backup.
The loco should be an S15 – that’s what I understand.
Thank you all so much for your continued interest.

 

[randyrippley]

Thats set in the 1940s, but the station hadn't changed much by the 1960s

The green BR lorry is driving onto the vehicle accessible platform, where the red post office vans are parked. Thats where the train to truck transfer would take place.
The loco should NOT be an S15 - they had been withdrawn from the route the previous year. It would be a West Country / Battle of Britain pacific or a Standard class 5 (or possibly a slightly more powerful Merchant Navy Pacific)

 

[randyrippley]

this will give you an idea of Waterloo in the early 1960s. It dates from 1961, but nothing will have changed by 1963. Will give an idea of clothing and fashion at the time as well

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thats set in the 1940s, but the station hadn't changed much by the 1960s

The green BR lorry is driving onto the vehicle accessible platform, where the red post office vans are parked. Thats where the train to truck transfer would take place.
The loco should NOT be an S15 - they had been withdrawn from the route the previous year. It would be a West Country / Battle of Britain pacific or a Standard class 5 (or possibly a slightly more powerful Merchant Navy Pacific)

OP - sorry for the confusion here.

randyrippley is quite correct that the loco should not be an S15. Such locos were only pressed into use on passenger duties at times of peak summer duties, ie July-August, or possibly due to a loco failure.
But I think he's got the S15 and N15 mixed up. The S15s carried on in service on freight and parcels into 1966 and possibly 67 (the last year of steam on the Southern).

The N15 class (also known as the King Arthurs, because they were named after people appearing in the legends) was the passenger version of what was, effectively, the same design as the S15, but with bigger driving wheels (to cater for the higher speeds of passenger trains).

As others have written, your train would almost certainly have been hauled by a Merchant Navy (MN) pacific, or a Battle of Britain/West Country (BB/WC 'light' pacific) - I'd say 80% it would be one of these - or a Standard 5 4-6-0 (20% chance) in 1963.

30907 was officially a Class V - otherwise known as a "Schools" class 4-4-0 named "Dulwich". This class was named after famous schools mostly, but not exclusively, in the south of England.

The Schools, King Arthurs and Lord Nelsons were made redundant when the last phase of electrification of the Kent lines (south east) was completed in mid-62. This released a batch of relatively new pacifics, which were mostly transferred to the LSWR section (ie Waterloo lines) and this move allowed the older locomotives to be withdrawn.

Even before this mass transfer, I don't think Schools or King Arthurs were normally allocated to the Boat Trains. The favoured locos for those duties were LNs c 1960.

 

[Union St]

OK, got it. Thank you Randy and IronDuke. I have a lot of material to work with, and importantly, material that I KNOW is correct, because I can sense the enthusiasm and integrity of all your remarks. Forums like this really show how the internet helps all of us learn so much. Thank you again, not just for the information, but for allowing me a glimpse into your world.

 

[judethegreat]

Thank YOU for wanting to make it factually correct. Many of us cringe (some more than others) at inaccuracies in works of fiction... Me - I used to more than I do now.. And thanks for starting this thread - t'is very interesting. And for not wanting to plug your other book..

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you again. So, to recap, if I come into Southampton (which I have to do), the bullion would have been loaded in the docks and taken by Southern? bullion van to Waterloo via Clapham J? Do you think it might have been added to a freight or postal train, or to a passenger train? And what kind of engine might it have had? Note: this is BEFORE the great train robbery of august 1963.

Just to clarify - your mention of 'Southern' would have to mean the Southern Region of British Railways (not the Southern Railway - that became part of British Railways on nationalisation). Apols if you knew this, but you did say you didn't know much about railways...plus I noted that you are based in USA so could easily not be aware of such detail.

 

[Union St]

Thank you, I do get confused. I intend to take/print all this because I have so much to digest. One more thing, if anyone is still paying attention, but I have been searching Waterloo Station for what seems days now and I still cannot figure out how road traffic got onto the platform between 11 & 12. Was it from the front, or from York Rd? I can't seem to find a map/plan that shows that.

 

[desk_wizard]

14 minutes into this will show you how....

 

[randyrippley]

Thank you, I do get confused. I intend to take/print all this because I have so much to digest. One more thing, if anyone is still paying attention, but I have been searching Waterloo Station for what seems days now and I still cannot figure out how road traffic got onto the platform between 11 & 12. Was it from the front, or from York Rd? I can't seem to find a map/plan that shows that.

this painting by Cuneo shows 11 & 12 around 1967, I never saw it that busy though! The access is a tarmac roadway directly across the concourse, which went through the station building

this much earlier image gives a view of the roadway across the concourse - you can see a kerb marking the edge

 

[Union St]

Yes, I saw these too, but where does the road enter the Station? On Waterloo Rd at the front to the NW of the passengers?
I can't find a pic showing, but I agree it does look like it is at the front.

 

[randyrippley]

another view of 11 and the cab road

and here's a map showing the platform layout, with the cab road shown between 11 &12
Note 11 & 12 were the designated platforms for the Southampton boat train

Vehicles supposedly entered from the approach road next to platform 1, through an underpass and up a ramp to 11/12
Exit was across the concourse to the approach road. My memory is that this route was also used for entry

 

[Union St]

Oops. Didn't mean to do that. So, I can see the wide platform between 11 & 12, but does the road go straight out the front onto Water Rd?