1st Gen DMUs as mixed trains?

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HSTEd

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I hear stories that 1st Generation Diesel Multiple Units could haul a small number of freight wagons (vacuum braked as that was the equipment fitted to them). And that this may have been done during the 50s and maybe the 80s (with Parcels vans).

Does anyone have any pictures of this, either in service or in preservation, and can someone confirm that it did infact happen?

I imagine a Cl121 might be a little underpowered but I think I could see a Cl101 power twin managing it (as would that not have the power output of a Type 1 at rail?)

On a related matter, Wikipedia seems tobe under the impression that there were buffet carriage equipped Cl101 sets. Can anyone confirm this?

EDIT:
On yet another peripherally related note, how would set numbers like "L220" figure with TOPS? would it be called 101220 on the computer or would the set have an entirely seperate TOPS number not mentioned anywhere else?
 
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When Barmouth bridge was declared unfit for loco's in the 80's, DMU's were used to move some wagons.

As for the power being similar to a type 1, it probably had half the hp, and was geared for acceleration (yes, really) rather than power.
 

The 39 Steps

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When newpaper traffic still used rail the 0350 Manchester Victoria to Blackburn newspaper train used to be loco hauled and have two General Utility Vans. I know that it carried newspapers for Darwen and Blackburn at least. Darwen was staffed then and they started at around 0430 to allow access to the station for the collection of the newspapers by the local delivery people. Blackburn, at that time, was staffed 24 hours a day. The two empty vans started their way back to Red Bank Carriage Sidings, Manchester by being attached to the rear of the 0620 Blackburn to Preston which was normally a two car Cravens DMU.
 

Schnellzug

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They did used to use them to haul one or two vans, I believe, yes. Except Daisy the railcar, of course, who doesn't do pulling because it's bad for her swerves. There's one here. The set numbers, the former WR sets were altered from (e.g.) L401 to 117 401 in the 90s, with the sets that were retained (e.g. for the North London Line).
 

driver9000

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DMMUs hauling one or two vans was known as tail traffic and there were limits on what could be hauled depending on the number of power cars in the train. I have seen a photo of a bubble hauling a milk tank.

There were a small number of buffet car 101s in existence. I'm not sure when they lost the buffet car though, possibly early 1970s?
 

Welshman

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I can remember they used to haul the occasional van in the Leeds and Bradford areas.
It also called for nifty work by the station shunter crew and signalman, as some dmus used to be scheduled to reverse at Leeds Central or Bradford Exchange in 5 minutes or so!

And, according to Brian Haresnape's "DMUs - the First Generation", six 4-car 101s, originally allocated to the North Eastern Region, had buffet facilities [trailer Nos. 59573-59578], and again, according to him, No.59575 was later aquired by the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, and used as a locomotive-hauled carriage [No.24].

I have no idea if that is still running, nor when the buffet cars were originally withdrawn, but I do remember them working the Newcastle-Carlisle service.
 
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lincolnshire

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I hear stories that 1st Generation Diesel Multiple Units could haul a small number of freight wagons (vacuum braked as that was the equipment fitted to them). And that this may have been done during the 50s and maybe the 80s (with Parcels vans).

I can remember them hauling a van at times, that was detached by the station pilot at Hull using the Drewery 204 hp diesel mechanical shunter.



On a related matter, Wikipedia seems tobe under the impression that there were buffet carriage equipped Cl101 sets. Can anyone confirm this?

We also used to have one of these at Hull at one time, it was supposed to be used in the set that was for the replacement of one of the Trans Pennine Units that was based at Hull Botanic Depot. Not sure if it was sent upto Hull Springhead C & W Depot for storage in the old Hull & Barnsley Loco erecting shops. Two Trans Pennine griddle cars was stored up there for years in that shed.
 

Schnellzug

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A batch of TSLRBs (a TS with a buffet counter) (E59573–59578) were built as part of class 111 sets (class 101 but with RR engines); 59575 is at the Great Central under restoration, I believe.
 

O L Leigh

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There are pictures of 1st gen DMUs with tail loads floating around if you know where to search for them. I have a feeling that it was a short-lived phenomena, but it certainly happened during the 1960s and possibly into the 1970s as well. However, I think that it was limited to just a single vehicle being hauled and cannot recall seeing pictures of anything more hanging off the back. 1st gen DMUs were not noted for being gutsy, even when hauling their own bulk about.

O L Leigh
 

HSTEd

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Now I'm seeing images of Class 185s doing it, they are hardly short in the power stakes.
 

O L Leigh

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True, but then they're rather lardy themselves. Hardly ideal candidates for a tail load (not that such freight flows exist anymore). You'd be more likely to see an MPV sandwiching freight wagons (Chirk logs anyone...?) than anything hanging off the back of a passenger DMU.

O L Leigh
 

scarby

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The first train into into Scarborough from York (dep c 6.30am?) on weekdays was always the "mail train" with a Mk 1 full brake?/parcels van containing mail coupled on the back of the DMU.

The station pilot then uncoupled it and it sat somewhere all day. It then went back on a train departing at around 20.00, which I think in those days was the last one out.

This was going on in the 1970s and I guess sometime into the early 80s.
 

6Gman

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These days, when you can catch a train from Dundee to Plymouth and all you get is a bloke pushing a trolley, it's amazing to recall how many First Generation DMUs were built with buffet cars (though I wonder how many of them ever saw regular use!).
 

4SRKT

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The Ulster Transport Authority used its Multi-Purpose Diesel railcars as locomotives (not mixed trains) to haul freight between Belfast and [London]Derry for many years. I presume is where the name 'multi-purpose' came from. As a child I can remember NIR 70 class DEMUs hauling a single container wagon between Belfast and Larne on the back of a service train.
 

Masboroughlad

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These days, when you can catch a train from Dundee to Plymouth and all you get is a bloke pushing a trolley, it's amazing to recall how many First Generation DMUs were built with buffet cars (though I wonder how many of them ever saw regular use!).
Anyone any pics of these old DMUs with buffets?
 

sprinterguy

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Anyone any pics of these old DMUs with buffets?
Try Googling class 119, 120, 123, 124 or 126.

These are my favourites, the Transpennine 124s:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5657358439/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5661954713/in/photostream/

I couldn't tell you which one is the griddle car out of the six carriage formation, but I believe that they were the third carriage in from one end.

And this is the one preserved class 120 buffet vehicle, as seen in preservation on the GCR:
http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Images/120/59276-Undated-Ian-Francis.jpg
 

Masboroughlad

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Try Googling class 119, 120, 123, 124 or 126.

These are my favourites, the Transpennine 124s:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5657358439/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5661954713/in/photostream/

I couldn't tell you which one is the griddle car out of the six carriage formation, but I believe that they were the third carriage in from one end.
Awesome pics of the Pennines. I only remember them when knocked down to 4 cars.

Proper trains, providing proper comfort and proper services - happy days :D:D:D
 

lincolnshire

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Try Googling class 119, 120, 123, 124 or 126.

These are my favourites, the Transpennine 124s:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5657358439/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5661954713/in/photostream/

I couldn't tell you which one is the griddle car out of the six carriage formation, but I believe that they were the third carriage in from one end.

I would say looking at the green painted Pennine units picture passing Hessle Haven it would be the 4th coach back from the front.
As they were driving motor coach with first class behind the driver and rest standard class open seating coach , next coach non-driving intermediate standard class compartment/ brake coach, then standard open trailer car, Griddle car / first class compartments trailor, another non-powered intermediate compartment/ brake coach followed by another driving motor coach with first class behind the driver again.
I do once remember I think when we had royalty travel on a set, they had the first class compartment in the griddle car coach and the steward had to serve the refreshments on the journey .
They was nice sets but was hard worked back & forth between Hull and Liverpool.
 

HSTEd

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Are those 20m long carriages? I understand some Mark 1 units had short bodyshells?
6 20m carriages probably has 3 23m ones beat any day, even if they do have a buffet.
 

MattRobinson

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No.59575 was later aquired by the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, and used as a locomotive-hauled carriage [No.24].
This was before my time, but what I understand from reading in books about the history of the line is that it was eventually repainted and still runs as the buffet car on our normal service trains.

HTH,
Matt
 

sprinterguy

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I would say looking at the green painted Pennine units picture passing Hessle Haven it would be the 4th coach back from the front.

As they were driving motor coach with first class behind the driver and rest standard class open seating coach , next coach non-driving intermediate standard class compartment/ brake coach, then standard open trailer car, Griddle car / first class compartments trailor, another non-powered intermediate compartment/ brake coach followed by another driving motor coach with first class behind the driver again.

I do once remember I think when we had royalty travel on a set, they had the first class compartment in the griddle car coach and the steward had to serve the refreshments on the journey .

They was nice sets but was hard worked back & forth between Hull and Liverpool.
Thanks for the additional information. All the sources I can find point to the second and fifth carriages in a six carriage set originally being powered vehicles though. These intermediate powered vehicles were de-engined though when the sets were shortened down to four carriages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Proper trains, providing proper comfort and proper services - happy days :D:D:D
Amen to that. The 124s were before my time, and it's a crying shame that a unit wasn't preserved (Too much expense to remove the asbestos).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are those 20m long carriages? I understand some Mark 1 units had short bodyshells?
6 20m carriages probably has 3 23m ones beat any day, even if they do have a buffet.
They were quite high powered, too, for a multiple unit of their time: four power cars each fitted with 2 x 230hp engines, giving a total of 1840hp in a six carriage set. As far as I know, the carriages were the usual 64' 6'' (19.66 metres) long, the same as a standard mark 1.
 

John55

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Awesome pics of the Pennines. I only remember them when knocked down to 4 cars.

Proper trains, providing proper comfort and proper services - happy days :D:D:D
I assume you did not travel on these trains. They were not particularly comfortable and the refreshment coaches were removed very early. My abiding memory of them is the compulsory 20 minute stop at Leeds for the fitters to lift the hatches in the floor to fix some problem with the mechanics.
 

sprinterguy

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This was before my time, but what I understand from reading in books about the history of the line is that it was eventually repainted and still runs as the buffet car on our normal service trains.

HTH,
Matt
59575 is currently awaiting restoration at the Great Central Railway (unless it's been shifted recently) after being gutted of asbestos last decade. It did work on the KWVR between 1973 and 1984, but then moved away from the line.
http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/205230/59575.jpg
 

Masboroughlad

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I used to love going from Sheffield to Doncaster on these TP units - hearing the engines accelerate as they went through Conisbrough (?) tunnel. Or leaving Sheffield past Nunnery junction.......

Back to the thred. I am sure I can remember DMUs with an odd parcels van or newspaper carriage attached.

Wonder if things will ever go full circle and we get mixed trains again? Would make sense for some operators to get additional revenue?

Ooops sorry, I forgot - privatised railways and common sense are rarely good bedfellows! :roll:
 

HSTEd

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Its a pity that six carriage fixed formation diesel multiple units with proper buffets will never be seen on secondary routes again. I think there are several places that could benefit from them.
Especially with the SP differentials and acceleration benefits that woudl come from being (almost certainly) a derivative of the Cl172.
 
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