1st leg of Advance cancelled, caught up on time with 2nd using taxi - refund?

JDA

Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
9
Hi all. Simple question today I hope.

I had an advance ticket on the 1829 from Holmwood to Leeds, changing at Horsham and Stevenage. However, due to a broken down train, ALL services through Horsham and therefore all through Holmwood were cancelled about an hour before I was due to travel, with the published expectation being (still the case as of 2145) that the very last train of the night would run, leaving at 2347 and arriving at 0945 tomorrow. No thanks.

As of 1840 a rail replacement bus was published as being in place for Holmwood-Horsham and another for Horsham-Three Bridges, but with no bus in sight, the planned train leaving Three Bridges at 1913 and it being a 34 min drive with no stops, that wasn't going to work.

With no trains at all through Holmwood and a bus only every hour (we are a small village), the only way to make my booked train was a taxi to Redhill to meet it there at 1929. This I did successfully as my priority was to get there on time.

I spent £54 on the ticket plus £40 on the taxi (should have been £33 but "card machine was broken" despite being told they would take contactless, so paid 40 cash as who wants change at the moment!) due to being unable to arrive on time otherwise - but I will indeed arrive on time! Does this mean I'm not entitled to any sort of refund, despite not having used 1 1/2 of the 3 booked trains and having had to make my own way to the one that was operating? Anything I can do now, or should have done differently? Do I need to keep the physical ticket (unstamped so far, but tried in a Redhill barrier which of course spat it back out).

Thanks for any help!

P.S. very unimpressed at having to sort through piles of discarded tickets/receipts in the Redhill ticket machine tray with no hand sanitiser on hand. Feel they could do better in the current environment.Screenshot_20200626-182424_Trainline.jpgScreenshot_20200626-202500_National Rail.jpgScreenshot_20200626-202505_National Rail.jpgScreenshot_20200626-202510_National Rail.jpgScreenshot_20200626-202835_Maps.jpgScreenshot_20200626-180342_Chrome.jpg
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,007
It's a very unfortunate incident but it is difficult to make out a strong cause of action. There is no right to have expenditure incurred in order to ensure on-time arrival reimbursed; had you waited until the first train or bus that was provided, and later been stranded en-route, you would have been entitled to alternative transport (i.e. a taxi) or overnight accommodation, as well as delay compensation where applicable. But having arranged your own taxi without getting prior authorisation beforehand, they could quite rightfully say "we could have got you there for less out of pocket expenditure".

One where I think you're going to simply have to ask for, and hope that they reimburse you as a gesture of goodwill.
 

JDA

Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
9
OK, thank you. Any mileage in arguments along the lines of:

- Failure to provide 1 1/2 of the booked trains. Is the "product" sold only the end result (arrival at final destination) or is there a failure to perform argument based on having paid to travel on non-existent journey legs?

- My journey was in fact delayed after having started (vis-a-vis walking to the station - though before getting on any trains as none existed at the scheduled time) and required a taxi to continue effectively from that point

- Playing devil's advocate, had a RRB materialised the instant I left the station by taxi and got me to Horsham and then Three Bridges as fast as possible, this would still have resulted in being over an hour late. While they could have got me to Leeds for less outlay, they could not have done it on time.

I feel like I've fixed their problem here, and while this is still a better solution for me than taking the delay, it would be good to know any angle I can use.

Can always start with the polite ask as you suggest!
 

30907

Established Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
8,916
Location
Airedale
I agree it is worth asking, and pointing out that you were unable to reach your booked train.

A taxi to Dorking would have probably got you on the 2030 at Kings Cross.
However if your RRB - or indeed the 93 bus - had made it to Dorking by say 1935 (which seems reasonably likely) and you had headed for London directly you would have been delayed by just over an hour and been entitled to a substantial chunk of delay repay.


Go via customer services not an online form.
 

JDA

Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
9
I agree it is worth asking, and pointing out that you were unable to reach your booked train.

A taxi to Dorking would have probably got you on the 2030 at Kings Cross.
However if your RRB - or indeed the 93 bus - had made it to Dorking by say 1935 (which seems reasonably likely) and you had headed for London directly you would have been delayed by just over an hour and been entitled to a substantial chunk of delay repay.


Go via customer services not an online form.
Thanks - interesting suggestion re: Dorking. I did look at that but it seemed too tight. Looking at what happened, the train into Victoria was delayed enough that I may have beem able to get on it - but also enough that I would have missed the 2033 at King's Cross!Screenshot_20200626-225007_Trainline.jpg
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,007
- Failure to provide 1 1/2 of the booked trains. Is the "product" sold only the end result (arrival at final destination) or is there a failure to perform argument based on having paid to travel on non-existent journey legs?
The base common law position would be that you've paid for carriage from A to C via B, and arranged your own transport from A to B because you didn't want to wait for their alternative transport arrangements. So on that basis you prevented them from rectifying their breach of contract, so there is no recourse for the fact you incurred expenditure in doing so.

However, Condition 29.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel states that:
[If you purchase a Ticket and then choose not to travel] a deduction from your refund will be made in the case of part-used Tickets, calculated on the cost of the journey(s) actually made
This entitles you to obtain a refund where a ticket is only part-used. Now, it isn't clearly spelled out, but if you want to claim on this basis, I suggest that this is likely to be the best route of doing so.

It's obviously complicated by the fact that you hold an Advance ticket, since the retailer might argue that you are only due a refund on the difference between the face value of your Advance and the cost of a walk-up ticket from Redhill to Leeds - which is obviously negative, meaning you wouldn't be entitled to any refund at all.

In the circumstances I think it must be implied that the "cost of the journey(s) actually made" should be calculated by reference to the equivalent ticket type, so since your Holmwood to Leeds Advance was of ticket type BTS, the equivalent ticket to compare it to for Redhill to Leeds would be another BTS Advance. Unfortunately for you, that costs exactly the same - £54.00. So this is one avenue of recourse in theory but not in practice.

- Playing devil's advocate, had a RRB materialised the instant I left the station by taxi and got me to Horsham and then Three Bridges as fast as possible, this would still have resulted in being over an hour late. While they could have got me to Leeds for less outlay, they could not have done it on time.
This is indeed true - and I think any complaint/enquiry would have to focus on this aspect of things. However, again, having spared them from incurring delay compensation doesn't mean you get to still be paid the delay compensation as if you had been delayed, unfortunately.

I feel like I've fixed their problem here, and while this is still a better solution for me than taking the delay, it would be good to know any angle I can use.
Fixing train companies' problems often ends up not being worthwhile. Just like when the timetable changes between booking and travel, I think sometimes you just have to accept that if you want to arrive at your destination on-time, that may involve undergo some sacrifice or expense without recourse. On the other hand, if you are prepared to suffer delays, you have much more generous rights. It's a bit of a perverse situation.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,319
Location
Yorkshire
Had you made the journey, you would have been entitled to Delay Repay compensation as appropriate to the length of delay

If you held separate tickets you'd be entitled to a refund of any unused tickets for which you made your own arrangements.

Alternatively you could have chosen to not use the ticket at all and obtained a FULL refund on that ticket, and purchased separate ticket(s) to cover the actual journey made by rail. However in this case that would probably have cost more.

I'd contact GTR and ask nicely if they can consider a gesture of goodwill, based either on the value of a Delay Repay claim based on the delay you would have experienced if you had made the journey in full by rail, or a part refund on the basis you only used part of the ticket.

There is absolutely no obligation for GTR to pay you anything as it was entirely your choice to only use part of your ticket and to make your own way for part of the journey to avoid a delay.
 

30907

Established Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
8,916
Location
Airedale
Thanks - interesting suggestion re: Dorking. I did look at that but it seemed too tight. Looking at what happened, the train into Victoria was delayed enough that I may have beem able to get on it - but also enough that I would have missed the 2033 at King's Cross!View attachment 80022
In normal circumstances, of course, the cross-London journey takes far less time than that; however, Covid may be affecting what the planners show.
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
2,321
In normal circumstances, of course, the cross-London journey takes far less time than that; however, Covid may be affecting what the planners show.
The National Rail planner always shows the Tube leg of a cross-London journey as taking the length of time between the legs either side of it.
 

Top