2-EPB & 4-EPB Wimbledon ?

[03_179]

Hi all,

Really trying to remember and solve a question. An old work collogue and I were having a chat over the tinterweb about the trains we used to catch out of Waterloo.

Between 1986 and 1990 Trains on the local lines out of London Water to Hampton Court, Chessington, Epsom, Guildford via Effingham Junc, Shepperton and Kingston.
He seems to think they were 2 and 4 EPBs and not a lot else.
I seem to remember there were 455s more often.

I have an old EMU platform 5 book for Spring 1990 and there appear no EPBs allocated to Wimbledon (WD).
When did EPBs leave WD?

What replaced them?
Would VEPs and CIGS have been regularly used on those lines ?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Ianigsy]

Four-car 508s from the early 1980s, to be replaced by 455s.

Up until about 1987 I used to visit family whose house backed on to Ewell West station- it varied from one timetable to another, but there was one evening peak diagram which was booked for VEPs. I would guess it would be either Guildford or Horsham.

The 2HAPs (externally similar to a 2EPB) lasted into the early 1990s and the SUBs and EPBs clung on a bit longer on the Effingham Junction/Dorking-Victoria route.

 

[03_179]

Thanks.
I knew most of the trains we got down to Clapham on the locals were 455s.

I've got note books of haulage but these ones I can't locate at the moment.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 2HAPs (externally similar to a 2EPB) lasted into the early 1990s and the SUBs and EPBs clung on a bit longer on the Effingham Junction/Dorking-Victoria route.

The last 4-SUBs were withdrawn in 1983 - apart of course from 4732 which soldiered on for a few more years, albeit not in timetabled service.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As far as I recall, as said above the last of the SUB's went in 1983. The 508's, which I have a list of the delivery dates somewhere of the first dozen or so (so we could diagram them in to service with some degree of certainty) in 1979, were largely relocated to Merseyside by 1985 with the fourth cars of each being added to the (then) incoming 455/7's. At that stage the 455/9's had yet to make an appearance I believe. All 74 x 455/8's were allocated to Wimbledon at that point. There were a small number of 2 EPB's still on the SW, mostly the ex Tynesider's and a handful in the high number range preceding them. IIRC these were used on the Windsor/Weybridge services which divided at Staines, although I can not remember when this practice ceased. May be getting my years confused I confess..
The Hap's, being geared for 90mph were mostly used on main line services augmenting trains formed of (largely) Vep's on services who's diagrams finished at the likes of Farnham/Woking etc. These could be a pain for weekend engineering works train planning, as their weekday diagrams would often see them spare on Sat/Sun, but blocking in Vep's (or Cig's) that were needed at weekends. This was particularly so at Farnham (only a 5 road shed in those days) and often on a Friday evening, additional shunting would be diagrammed to move them out the way!

Up until about 1987 I used to visit family whose house backed on to Ewell West station- it varied from one timetable to another, but there was one evening peak diagram which was booked for VEPs

Tail end of the 455 introduction I would guess, and as with any stock introduction/change around, there were often a small number of diagrams who's stock would change from one month to another, as the overall plan progressed.

PS: forgot the 2 Sap's. These were diagrammed in pairs on some service routes you mention, but by 1985 IIRC they had been reconfigured back in to HAP mode(?). As for 4 EPB's, certainly by 1985 all were gone from SW.

 

[nw1]

I have CWNs for both 1981 and 1982 for the South Western Division, and after that date I have personal memories.

1981 and 1982 were a real mix, of 508s, EPBs (4 and 2, sometimes in a 6-car formation) and a few SUBs. There was even one CIG diagram in the early afternoon down the Chessington South branch, which was notable for having a real mix of all this stock.

Certainly by 1985 (the first time I visited Clapham Junction, and the first time I observed suburban operations in detail) it was all 455s. (There were plenty of EPBs on the Central Division but that's OT).

The Cobham line switched from VEPs/EPBs to 455s in May 1984, but even then, for a year or two, there were some shoulder peak services booked for VEPs (and 2EPBs, too, IIRC).

As far as I recall, as said above the last of the SUB's went in 1983. The 508's, which I have a list of the delivery dates somewhere of the first dozen or so (so we could diagram them in to service with some degree of certainty) in 1979, were largely relocated to Merseyside by 1985 with the fourth cars of each being added to the (then) incoming 455/7's. At that stage the 455/9's had yet to make an appearance I believe. All 74 x 455/8's were allocated to Wimbledon at that point. There were a small number of 2 EPB's still on the SW, mostly the ex Tynesider's and a handful in the high number range preceding them. IIRC these were used on the Windsor/Weybridge services which divided at Staines, although I can not remember when this practice ceased

By 1981 certainly, the Staines-Weybridge was a shuttle by this time with some through working in the morning peak at the Weybridge end, though not the evening peak (presumably due to a conflicting movement being necessary).

. May be getting my years confused I confess..
The Hap's, being geared for 90mph were mostly used on main line services augmenting trains formed of (largely) Vep's on services who's diagrams finished at the likes of Farnham/Woking etc. These could be a pain for weekend engineering works train planning, as their weekday diagrams would often see them spare on Sat/Sun, but blocking in Vep's (or Cig's) that were needed at weekends. This was particularly so at Farnham (only a 5 road shed in those days) and often on a Friday evening, additional shunting would be diagrammed to move them out the way!

I do seem to remember that in the 1985 timetable the HAPs had a tendency to be at the country end on evening peak services. I wonder if this was by design, so they would not block in the VEPs/CIGs in this manner?
(That said, at Woking the sidings were 'up' from the station, towards London, so would make more sense to have the HAPs at the rear).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

There was even one CIG diagram in the early afternoon down the Chessington South branch, which was notable for having a real mix of all this stock.

Be interested to know the full diagram detail for the service you mention, ie: where it started, it's workings through the day and it's finish location. I might (only might ) be able to add something more if it rings any bells with me! Quite often certain diagrams were used for certain reasons, particularly if they were depot captive diagrams, and in such circumstances the type of stock used was almost a secondary consideration. Be interested to see.

Equally it might also be something to do with platforming arrangements at Waterloo, although in this instance I would say less likely, unless that too is a consequence of the overall diagram concerned?

I do seem to remember that in the 1985 timetable the HAPs had a tendency to be at the country end on evening peak services

AFAIR there was no specific strategy for such positioning. Quite often the position of individual unit types on any given service could be the result of SX peaks, whereby a unit either came from depot to attach at Waterloo or conversely was detached to go to depot - and again, platforming occupancy at Waterloo could dictate this. Bear in mind the HAP's by this time were essentially a peak time necessity, so were (outside peaks and weekends) largely left 'spare'.

 

[nw1]

Be interested to know the full diagram detail for the service you mention, ie: where it started, it's workings through the day and it's finish location. I might (only might ) be able to add something more if it rings any bells with me! Quite often certain diagrams were used for certain reasons, particularly if they were depot captive diagrams, and in such circumstances the type of stock used was almost a secondary consideration. Be interested to see.

Equally it might also be something to do with platforming arrangements at Waterloo, although in this instance I would say less likely, unless that too is a consequence of the overall diagram concerned?

OK, here it is (this applied in both 1981 and 1982):

Starts Portsmouth Harbour Platform 5

0623 PMH-WAT RP (with 8VEP)
0818 WAT-PMH FP (with 8VEP)
1029 PMH-WAT (83 stopper; formerly-attached 8VEP forms preceding 82 semi-fast 1016 PMH-WAT), due 1257
Berth Platform 5
1436 WAT-Chessington S
1535 Chessington S-WAT (Platform 6)
1630 WAT-Ports S/S via Cobham FP (with 4CIG off 1416 PMH-WAT)
Empty to Fratton

Not sure if platform occupancy would be an issue in the middle of the day so something to do with ensuring it gets back to Portsmouth via a very convoluted plan? The interworking of the Chessington branch seemed fairly complex in that timetable.

I'm fairly sure it changed in 1983, presumably due to 455s being introduced on the Chessington branch. I am fairly sure the front CIG on the 1630 was on a Cobham-line diagram during the day that year whereas I think the 1029 PMH-WAT then formed a more obvious return working, the 1318 WAT-PMH '82' (which was off Wimbledon Park in 1982).

(Sadly no 1983 CWNs but my memory of that year is fairly good, or at least I think it is!).

AFAIR there was no specific strategy for such positioning. Quite often the position of individual unit types on any given service could be the result of SX peaks, whereby a unit either came from depot to attach at Waterloo or conversely was detached to go to depot - and again, platforming occupancy at Waterloo could dictate this. Bear in mind the HAP's by this time were essentially a peak time necessity, so were (outside peaks and weekends) largely left 'spare'.

That makes sense. One memory of HAPs I do have is how 5 or 6 of them, spare in Woking sidings, were swiftly brought into use as a Woking-Bournemouth semi-fast service on the 21 June 1986 Network Day. The flexibility of the 80s railway!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

0623 PMH-WAT RP (with 8VEP

Possible that was a Fleet request, as I will gamble and say that unit came out of Fratton depot the night before, so hence a Fratton to Fratton diagram. Back then Fratton did more heavy maintenance etc than in later times, but must admit the Chessy part is odd. The only thing I can think of relates to the 'Greyhound' modifications made to many of the CIG's (when was that?). If that ties in datewise, Fratton depot may have been involved, and they may have asked for the diagram to work an all stations service to evaluate how the express ratio would cope on a stop-start run?

Its so long ago, my memory for dates is rubbish now.

That makes sense. One memory of HAPs I do have is how 5 or 6 of them, spare in Woking sidings, were swiftly brought into use as a Woking-Bournemouth semi-fast service on the 21 June 1986 Network Day

Are you sure you don't mean a Waterloo-Portsmouth (& return) relief service planned on that day (for a 12 Hap).....

 

[nw1]

Possible that was a Fleet request, as I will gamble and say that unit came out of Fratton depot the night before, so hence a Fratton to Fratton diagram. Back then Fratton did more heavy maintenance etc than in later times, but must admit the Chessy part is odd. The only thing I can think of relates to the 'Greyhound' modifications made to many of the CIG's (when was that?). If that ties in datewise, Fratton depot may have been involved, and they may have asked for the diagram to work an all stations service to evaluate how the express ratio would cope on a stop-start run?

Its so long ago, my memory for dates is rubbish now.

This was definitely well before Greyhounds, which were introduced in 1989.

Perhaps it was that the CIG needed to 'do something' in between the 1257 arrival (1029 ex-PMH) and 1630 departure, there weren't staff to take it to Clapham or Wimbledon and back, and there wasn't platform space to keep it at Waterloo for 3.5 hours?

Are you sure you don't mean a Waterloo-Portsmouth (& return) relief service planned on that day (for a 12 Hap).....

No, definitely Woking-Bournemouth relief, I know as I was on it!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

No, definitely Woking-Bournemouth relief, I know as I was on it!

That was a 'control' move then. The only 'planned' all HAP move that day was from/to Wimbledon depot as a 12 car, forming a 10.14 (I think) Waterloo to Pompey, and back again at some point after 16.00 ish. Can't remember what time it got to Portsmouth, but doubt it had time to return to Woking for anything useful. What time was your departure?
The only spare HAP's that day were (on paper) in the country area, Farnham, possibly the odd one at Woking, Eastleigh(?), so they weren't of much use when all WTT and other additional services were covered with 12 car VEP/CIG etc.

 

[nw1]

That was a 'control' move then. The only 'planned' all HAP move that day was from/to Wimbledon depot as a 12 car, forming a 10.14 (I think) Waterloo to Pompey, and back again at some point after 16.00 ish. Can't remember what time it got to Portsmouth, but doubt it had time to return to Woking for anything useful. What time was your departure?
The only spare HAP's that day were (on paper) in the country area, Farnham, possibly the odd one at Woking, Eastleigh(?), so they weren't of much use when all WTT and other additional services were covered with 12 car VEP/CIG etc.

I believe it was 1020 or so from Woking, a few mins behind the regular '92'.

The regular '92' was silly-full, couldn't get on. it left, and the HAP drew into Platform 4 off the sidings some 5 (?) minutes later.

I know it was a few minutes in front of the summer only Waterloo-Lymington, which I boarded at Brockenhurst a few minutes after the HAPs called. I think that was always the 1000 from Waterloo?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Suspect Control probably ran an additional empty up from Eastleigh depot, which would fit in with the train going to Bournemouth (crew wise). They were certainly very successful events, unless one just wanted a quiet day out somewhere...

 

[nw1]

Suspect Control probably ran an additional empty up from Eastleigh depot, which would fit in with the train going to Bournemouth (crew wise). They were certainly very successful events, unless one just wanted a quiet day out somewhere...

Ah ok, thanks. I'm fairly sure it came in from the Woking sidings, but conceivable it might have come from elsewhere prior to that.

A long time ago I did have a Woking CWN for 1985 (the year before admittedly) which one of the Woking station staff gave to me - and I'm fairly sure a number of HAPs did spend the weekend in Woking sidings that year. Might have misremembered, though.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Ah ok, thanks. I'm fairly sure it came in from the Woking sidings, but conceivable it might have come from elsewhere prior to that.

A long time ago I did have a Woking CWN for 1985 (the year before admittedly) which one of the Woking station staff gave to me - and I'm fairly sure a number of HAPs did spend the weekend in Woking sidings that year. Might have misremembered, though.

The train (HAPs) if it did come up from Eastleigh, under Control means, would have run at a time they had a spare crew to move it, which may have been a few hours before needed (at Woking) so it would have been shunted in to the East End sidings initially, although would have been piloted in there by one of the station RO2s who were passed out as shunters effectively (due to the need to attend attach/detach with the Basing/Alton splitters) as I don't think Eastleigh drivers signed Woking East End - not sure now to be honest (memory or lack of) - this assumes it happened as suggested of course, which may be a wide mile off the mark?

Think you are correct (CWN), as we did have one, may be two HAP units combined with a VEP or pair of, at some time back then. There were three sidings at that time, but these were reconfigured in to only one during the summer of '96 when the resignalling/re-alligning of the Down Lines and the provision of the new London end bay, p3 took place.

 

[nw1]

Four-car 508s from the early 1980s, to be replaced by 455s.

Up until about 1987 I used to visit family whose house backed on to Ewell West station- it varied from one timetable to another, but there was one evening peak diagram which was booked for VEPs. I would guess it would be either Guildford or Horsham.

I don't think the South Western division served Guildford via Epsom, or Horsham at the time - just Dorking and Effingham Junction. Might be wrong though.

 

[4SubAsociation]

The last 4-SUBs were withdrawn in 1983 - apart of course from 4732 which soldiered on for a few more years, albeit not in timetabled service.

40 years today actually. 5th September 1983 was the last normal service opperated 4SUB Trains. Those being 4277,4278,4279,4298,4629,4721,4754 with 4732 being kept on until 1st October 1983 for the 4SUB farewell railtour.

 

[03_179]

Amazing amount of info here thanks guys.
So by 1986 there were practically no EPBs working those lines but had been replaced by 455s.

Apart from CIGs/VEPs what others worked?
I don't think we would have caught the HAPs
Pardon my lack of knowledge but what were 'Greyhounds' numbers?

Thanks again all

 

[181]

Up until about 1987 I used to visit family whose house backed on to Ewell West station- it varied from one timetable to another, but there was one evening peak diagram which was booked for VEPs. I would guess it would be either Guildford or Horsham.

I don't think the South Western division served Guildford via Epsom, or Horsham at the time - just Dorking and Effingham Junction. Might be wrong though.

In 1983 there was at least one Waterloo-Horsham train, around school going home time, and I presume there were others later in the evening peak. However, the train I remember wasn't a VEP (if I remember rightly, my last 4-SUB journey was on it, from Clapham Jct. to Wiimbledon in late June/early July that year), and I think it may have ceased some time before 1987.

I have a vague memory (but not I think based on actually making the journey) that there was a time in the (mid?) 1980s when on Sundays you had to change at Effingham Junction if going from Surbiton to Guildford via Cobham. But I doubt if VEPs were involved, and I think through Leatherhead-Guildford trains of any kind were not the norm until some time later.

 

[Ianigsy]

I don't think the South Western division served Guildford via Epsom, or Horsham at the time - just Dorking and Effingham Junction. Might be wrong though.

It seemed to vary from one timetable to another, but I definitely remember it being easier for us to go to Guildford at the weekend. Perhaps there was a perceived demand from ramblers heading for the North Downs?

I was also fascinated by the finger boards at Ewell West - having come from Birkenhead North, where the only departure indicator said “New Brighton/West Kirby/Terminates Here”, there was quite a variety of permutations from “Do Not Board” and “Epsom only” to Guildford and Horsham with every possible permutation of intermediate stops.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Pardon my lack of knowledge but what were 'Greyhounds' numbers?

Classified 421/5, Unit numbers were 1301-1322. Modifications were made to the motors to increase speeds for timetabling (something field weakening related - others with a greater technical know how may be able to explain the intricate detail). They could still run with any other 400 series units but were shown as '4 Cig(G)' on traffic notices.

 

[03_179]

Thanks for that

 

[nw1]

It seemed to vary from one timetable to another, but I definitely remember it being easier for us to go to Guildford at the weekend. Perhaps there was a perceived demand from ramblers heading for the North Downs?

Perhaps on Sunday? I used Guildford very frequently throughout the 80s (well from late 1982 onwards) and there were definitely no via-Epsom services Mon-Sat, the only service was the half-hourly via Cobham from Platform 1.

Amazing amount of info here thanks guys.
So by 1986 there were practically no EPBs working those lines but had been replaced by 455s.

Apart from CIGs/VEPs what others worked?
I don't think we would have caught the HAPs

Possible HAPs, and even CIGs/VEPs, could have stood in for 455s, I guess.
2EPBs were still around in 1985, thinking about it, but not much later.

In 1983 there was at least one Waterloo-Horsham train, around school going home time, and I presume there were others later in the evening peak. However, the train I remember wasn't a VEP (if I remember rightly, my last 4-SUB journey was on it, from Clapham Jct. to Wiimbledon in late June/early July that year), and I think it may have ceased some time before 1987.

That is true, such services are present in the 1981 and 1982 CWNs that I have, running around the peaks only. None were VEPs.

However I'm fairly sure these services had disappeared by around 1985, but can't be 100% sure. I think they would have been 455s if they had continued.
(One thing I do remember, which is a little off-topic, is reading the notes in the 1985 Central Division timetable and they mentioned withdrawal of first class from several Victoria-Horsham via Dorking services.)

 

[Dr_Paul]

I was commuting between Kingston and Waterloo from the early 1970s and I can't recall any two-car EMUs on the Kingston loop or Shepperton services; they were pretty much exclusively 4-SUBs. I also don't recall their being used on other inner suburban services (Hampton Court, Chessington, Epsom and beyond). But, as others have stated above, they were used with 4-VEPs to make up a six-car service on the main line. Were they ever used to make up a 10-car service, that is, two four-car sets and a two-car one? I have a vague memory that they were, but I might be mistaken.

On the Windsor lines, I have a feeling that 2-EPBs were used, but I can't be sure with what services. Way back in the early 1970s, I saw a single 2-EPB on a Windsor service, headcode 18, at a time when this service was divided at Staines, with one half going to Weybridge, and I wondered what would happen when this particular one reached Staines.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I was commuting between Kingston and Waterloo from the early 1970s and I can't recall any two-car EMUs on the Kingston loop or Shepperton services; they were pretty much exclusively 4-SUBs. I also don't recall their being used on other inner suburban services (Hampton Court, Chessington, Epsom and beyond)

Single 2 car's weren't diagrammed in the inner area including those branches mentioned. However those types, ie: 2 EPB, 2 SAP etc were diagrammed on those routes (I have photos of same myself) in pairs or multiples of 6 or 8 cars. The reason for no single 2 cars being largely due to the risk of gapping in the inner area.
Going back to the days of 2 BIL's, being far more numerous in number, these did work singly between the likes of Ascot and Guildford/Ascot and Reading, but always in multiple East of Ascot.

Were they ever used to make up a 10-car service, that is, two four-car sets and a two-car one? I have a vague memory that they were, but I might be mistaken.

Yes, often.

I saw a single 2-EPB on a Windsor service, headcode 18

Pretty sure the usual HC for a Windsor was 58, but 18 was used, normally for fast services (can't remember calling pattern off hand). It may have been due to a unit defect (the other unit)? If it was one of the normal 'splitters' it would have just run through to Windsor, and back, the Weybridge leg likely being cancelled until the Control could recover that part of the diagram.

 

[nw1]

Single 2 car's weren't diagrammed in the inner area including those branches mentioned. However those types, ie: 2 EPB, 2 SAP etc were diagrammed on those routes (I have photos of same myself) in pairs or multiples of 6 or 8 cars. The reason for no single 2 cars being largely due to the risk of gapping in the inner area.

Looking at the 1982 CWN there was a single two-car working (2HAP, not 2EPB) on the Windsor side. This was 1040 Windsor-Waterloo -> 1137 Twickenham via Brentford ->1228 return to Waterloo. Presumably these were lightly-loaded services though I'd have expected the 1040 Windsor-Waterloo to be moderately well used. Before and after these three services the HAP was attached to another unit.

The 1982 suburban diagramming was very complex and, as I said earlier, had a real mix of units. As was discussed in another thread about 18 months ago, many of the Windsor and Eton services were operated by CIGs and VEPs off-peak, though were pure EPB (both 4 and 2, in various combinations) in the peaks.

I never saw any 2-car service on the SWD in the 80s (aside from substitutions) though apparently they were used on the Brockenhurst-Lymington and Weybridge-Staines shuttles (again according to the 1982 CWN).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Looking at the 1982 CWN there was a single two-car working (2HAP, not 2EPB) on the Windsor side

Must admit whilst typing the post above, there was a slight niggle at the back of my head that you had mentioned something along these lines once before, but couldn't put my finger on it. I suspect it was not looked on too kindly and likely was amended in later CWN's. Without seeing at least the Waterloo pages covering the timespan involved, I wouldn't like to say why this may have been diagrammed in the way it was?

BOLD Edited: PS nw1: Use the PM facility if you would like me to give a view on the latter, provided I can see the pages concerned. Page images would never be shared elsewhere.

 

[nw1]

Must admit whilst typing the post above, there was a slight niggle at the back of my head that you had mentioned something along these lines once before, but couldn't put my finger on it. I suspect it was not looked on too kindly and likely was amended in later CWN's. Without seeing at least the Waterloo pages covering the timespan involved, I wouldn't like to say why this may have been diagrammed in the way it was?

It appears to have been to transfer a HAP from a morning Guildford via Ascot service to a series of afternoon services to Reading or Guildford. Perhaps there was no other way this could have been dealt with (e.g berthing or sending out to Clapham were not options, for whatever reason).

Other workings of the unit include

0730 Guildford - Waterloo via Ascot (with a CIG)
0942 Waterloo-Windsor (with a CIG)
Divided at Windsor

and then

1458 Waterloo-Reading
1632 Reading-Waterloo
1805 Waterloo-Guildford via Ascot
(all 3 with a VEP)

This was 1982 only, not 1981.

Were CWN amendments common incidentally?

I can see an inconsistency in the 1982 CWN with something I can personally remember: the 0802 Portsmouth-Waterloo is shown as 2HAP+4CIG yet I distinctly remember it being a single CIG by April 1983. This service was memorable at the time as it was the only service to be looped at Haslemere to allow a faster service (the 0818 Portsmouth-Waterloo) to pass, so possibly the only service to use Haslemere Platform 3.

Pretty sure the usual HC for a Windsor was 58, but 18 was used, normally for fast services (can't remember calling pattern off hand). It may have been due to a unit defect (the other unit)? If it was one of the normal 'splitters' it would have just run through to Windsor, and back, the Weybridge leg likely being cancelled until the Control could recover that part of the diagram.

I thought 18 was Chessington, and fast services on the Windsor lines were x6 (so if there was ever a fast Windsor, it would presumably be 56?)

Must admit whilst typing the post above, there was a slight niggle at the back of my head that you had mentioned something along these lines once before, but couldn't put my finger on it. I suspect it was not looked on too kindly and likely was amended in later CWN's. Without seeing at least the Waterloo pages covering the timespan involved, I wouldn't like to say why this may have been diagrammed in the way it was?

BOLD Edited: PS nw1: Use the PM facility if you would like me to give a view on the latter, provided I can see the pages concerned. Page images would never be shared elsewhere.

The CWN I have was sent to me personally by (if I remember right) a member of this forum, therefore I am not sure whether it would be ok to send it on (as it's not "mine", so to speak) - but maybe you can figure it out from the info I've given you.

However if you need specific other information from the CWN I can give it to you.

 

[MotCO]

The 508's, which I have a list of the delivery dates somewhere of the first dozen or so (so we could diagram them in to service with some degree of certainty) in 1979, were largely relocated to Merseyside by 1985 with the fourth cars of each being added to the (then) incoming 455/7's. At that stage the 455/9's had yet to make an appearance I believe.

I always wondered why the 455s had an odd carriage in their formation - it made the side profile look strange.

But why were the 508s transferred to Merseyside? They were 4 cars in London, but presumably Merseyside only wanted 3 cars. Why didn't Merseyside take 3 car 455s, ie as built, rather than send the 455s to London, take out a carriage from the 508s, add the carriage to the 455s and send the remainder of the 508s to Merseyside? It seems an awful lot of trouble.

(I think I havd also heard that the 508s were always intended for Mersyside, but they were sent to London in the interim. But that doesn't make sense if Mersyside only wanted 3 car trains.)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

2EPBs were still around in 1985, thinking about it, but not much later.

When did 2EPBs finish working Wimbledon - West Croydon? I'm sure they ran up the very late 1980s when the shiny 456's took over. Were they Wimbledon-allocated EPBs or Selhurst-allocated?