2-EPB & 4-EPB Wimbledon ?

[nw1]

When did 2EPBs finish working Wimbledon - West Croydon? I'm sure they ran up the very late 1980s when the shiny 456's took over. Were they Wimbledon-allocated EPBs or Selhurst-allocated?

Wouldn't surprise me, certainly plenty of 2EPBs about on the Central Division as late as 1988 but never saw the units operating this route (visits were to East Croydon and Clapham Junction).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Wouldn't surprise me, certainly plenty of 2EPBs about on the Central Division as late as 1988 but never saw the units operating this route (visits were to East Croydon and Clapham Junction).

New Cl. 456's operated the Wimbledon-West Croydon route from the early 1990s until much of it was taken over by Croydon Tramlink

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I always wondered why the 455s had an odd carriage in their formation - it made the side profile look strange.

But why were the 508s transferred to Merseyside? They were 4 cars in London, but presumably Merseyside only wanted 3 cars. Why didn't Merseyside take 3 car 455s, ie as built, rather than send the 455s to London, take out a carriage from the 508s, add the carriage to the 455s and send the remainder of the 508s to Merseyside? It seems an awful lot of trouble.

(I think I havd also heard that the 508s were always intended for Mersyside, but they were sent to London in the interim. But that doesn't make sense if Mersyside only wanted 3 car trains.)

It was something to do with the funding available at the time; I've seen the full story elsewhere on the forum somewhere a few years ago - I'm sure it could be found with a bit of searching. It was quite interesting.

Wouldn't surprise me, certainly plenty of 2EPBs about on the Central Division as late as 1988 but never saw the units operating this route (visits were to East Croydon and Clapham Junction).

When did 2EPBs finish working Wimbledon - West Croydon? I'm sure they ran up the very late 1980s when the shiny 456's took over. Were they Wimbledon-allocated EPBs or Selhurst-allocated?

Prior to the 456s, there were 63xx 2-EPBs on the Wimbledon to West Croydon... so Selhurst units.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I thought 18 was Chessington, and fast services on the Windsor lines were x6 (so if there was ever a fast Windsor, it would presumably be 56?)

Pretty sure the usual HC for a Windsor was 58, but 18 was used, normally for fast services (can't remember calling pattern off hand). It may have been due to a unit defect (the other unit)? If it was one of the normal 'splitters' it would have just run through to Windsor, and back, the Weybridge leg likely being cancelled until the Control could recover that part of the diagram.

The Windsor line headcodes were a separate list from the headcodes of the services on the main line, so there were duplications, albeit on different lines, between Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

The South-Western headcodes are listed for 1939, 1960 and 1990 in JN Faulkner's Rail Centres: Clapham Junction. I've just had a look and in 1960, headcode 18 on the main line was Chessington; on the Windsor line it was Windsor via Richmond, splitting at Staines, or Weybridge via Richmond; the through service to Windsor being 58. So far as I recall, 18s were more common than 58s. By 1990, the Weybridge via Richmond service had the headcode 14, although the book doesn't say when it changed, and so the 2-EPB I saw with what I thought was the Windsor splitting service with headcode 18 might well have just been going to Weybridge.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Were they Wimbledon-allocated EPBs or Selhurst-allocated?

Selhurst. Anything using platforms 9 & 10 at Wimbledon (as was) in normal service was Central Division.

It was something to do with the funding available at the time; I've seen the full story elsewhere on the forum somewhere a few years ago - I'm sure it could be found with a bit of searching. It was quite interesting.

May have seen the same thing, and got the impression the 508's were initially ordered for Merseyside, but got diverted to SR/SWD? This was (is) new to me, as being on the ground at the time we received them on the SWD, they were just the first of 'our' new trains, so thought no more about any politics that may have been going on at senior levels.

With regard Windsor HC's, 18/58, the answers above I would think are all relevant (neither wrong nor right, or should that be 'all correct, for the timetable period they applied to'), as the timetable and service patterns changed throughout these years, as did HC's.
I don't have the minutia detail, but just to say I posted an image above showing an ex Tyneside 2 EPB on an Up Windsor (HC 58) awaiting the Weybridge portion to attach on rear at Staines. That was taken October 1981. I have another image I took at Waterloo in October 1991, almost ten years to the day, of an 8 VEP departing Waterloo for Windsor on an additional service icw Twickenham Rugby displaying HC 18.

Can not remember when the Windsor/Weybridge splitters were taken out the plan, but do recall the discussions around same, as they were considered a risk to the overall Windsor line service as they relied upon every crew member being in the correct place for every such detachment (to do the physical detach and work the Weybridge portion). It would only take one member of crew to not be there for any reason, and the line could be subject to delays, at a location that was/is, as many will know, extremely busy train throughput wise.

Other workings of the unit include

0730 Guildford - Waterloo via Ascot (with a CIG)
0942 Waterloo-Windsor (with a CIG)
Divided at Windsor

and then

1458 Waterloo-Reading
1632 Reading-Waterloo
1805 Waterloo-Guildford via Ascot
(all 3 with a VEP)

This was 1982 only, not 1981.

Were CWN amendments common incidentally?

Further edit:

In answer to your last point here. Apart from the main TT change dates, May and December, there were PA (Permanent Alteration) dates. These dates could be applied to start at eight weekly intervals, and were governed by certain Train Crew rulings. Too many such issues on a consecutive basis, or too many changes to the plan in any one issue, would likely be rebuffed by Train crew side, in which case any alterations would have to be delayed until the next major TT change. But provided changes were acceptable to all parties, a PA notice would be issued, which took pressure off the STP planners having to reissue all such alterations every week, whilst still having the changes in place on the ground, which would then form the basis of the next major TT change.

As for the 2 car diagram above. The nearest CWN I have is 1979 so there have been changes, stock and timings;

I had assumed the detach was at Waterloo, but not so. This may say more about the CIG diagram, than the HAP?

So the HAP worked solo on the 10.44 Windsor to Waterloo/11.42 Waterloo to Windsor and 12.44 Windsor to Waterloo, due 13.32. Did it then stay on the blocks at Waterloo to await the VEP forming the front portion of the 1458 to Reading? What are the times/origin of that inbound VEP?

Also, what was the next move of the CIG left at Windsor?

 

[MotCO]

May have seen the same thing, and got the impression the 508's were initially ordered for Merseyside, but got diverted to SR/SWD? This was (is) new to me, as being on the ground at the time we received them on the SWD, they were just the first of 'our' new trains, so thought no more about any politics that may have been going on at senior levels

I just remember, as a humble commuter, getting new trains which were quite attractive, to be replaced by somewhat ugly utilitarian-looking trains.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Looking at the 1982 CWN there was a single two-car working (2HAP, not 2EPB) on the Windsor side. This was 1040 Windsor-Waterloo -> 1137 Twickenham via Brentford ->1228 return to Waterloo. Presumably these were lightly-loaded services though I'd have expected the 1040 Windsor-Waterloo to be moderately well used. Before and after these three services the HAP was attached to another unit.

With apologies nw1. When I posted above the single HAP diagram working a series of Windsor's, that was because that was the normal pattern, ie Windsor's were self contained at Waterloo, one of those things that is just accepted and drilled in to one's memory! Had forgotten you had posted these specific details as per here...

This indicates a Windsor diagram being broken in order to work a train to Twickenham and back, and that in itself sounds odd, as for most of each day the Brentford loop was covered by Waterloo to Waterloo services (in both directions). Just got me questioning my own sanity - was there a period in the base plan when the Brentford loop trains only ran between Waterloo and Twickenham via Brentford in both directions? To me it sounds like the sort of plan that was put in place now and again for engineering work purposes.......as, said, I am even more curious now !

 

[nw1]

With apologies nw1. When I posted above the single HAP diagram working a series of Windsor's, that was because that was the normal pattern, ie Windsor's were self contained at Waterloo, one of those things that is just accepted and drilled in to one's memory! Had forgotten you had posted these specific details as per here...

This indicates a Windsor diagram being broken in order to work a train to Twickenham and back, and that in itself sounds odd, as for most of each day the Brentford loop was covered by Waterloo to Waterloo services (in both directions). Just got me questioning my own sanity - was there a period in the base plan when the Brentford loop trains only ran between Waterloo and Twickenham via Brentford in both directions? To me it sounds like the sort of plan that was put in place now and again for engineering work purposes.......as, said, I am even more curious now !

No worries!

The contributor who sent me the CWN has messaged me saying he's happy to share with you, so I'll send the relevant scans (the ones including Waterloo) to you via PM.

In actual fact Windsors were not always self-contained in 1982, the diagramming was quite complex, related to the fact that off-peak CIGs and VEPs were employed while in the peak it was EPBs. But the CWN should reveal all.

Further edit:

In answer to your last point here. Apart from the main TT change dates, May and December, there were PA (Permanent Alteration) dates. These dates could be applied to start at eight weekly intervals, and were governed by certain Train Crew rulings. Too many such issues on a consecutive basis, or too many changes to the plan in any one issue, would likely be rebuffed by Train crew side, in which case any alterations would have to be delayed until the next major TT change. But provided changes were acceptable to all parties, a PA notice would be issued, which took pressure off the STP planners having to reissue all such alterations every week, whilst still having the changes in place on the ground, which would then form the basis of the next major TT change.

As for the 2 car diagram above. The nearest CWN I have is 1979 so there have been changes, stock and timings;

I had assumed the detach was at Waterloo, but not so. This may say more about the CIG diagram, than the HAP?

So the HAP worked solo on the 10.44 Windsor to Waterloo/11.42 Waterloo to Windsor and 12.44 Windsor to Waterloo, due 13.32. Did it then stay on the blocks at Waterloo to await the VEP forming the front portion of the 1458 to Reading? What are the times/origin of that inbound VEP?

Also, what was the next move of the CIG left at Windsor?

Hi Big Jumby 74, thanks for PA information. As I said above the CWNs I sent you should answer your questions re the workings.

 

[D7666]

It was something to do with the funding available at the time;

re 508s and why go to Mersey, and why not Mersey have new '455' /type/ EMU, something about the 'pep' production types that is often overlooked is that while they were the BR 'standard' suburban type at the time, they are all lower height - deliberately - overall and to a different body profile because a significant design specification was for undergound tunnel work as part of three different 1970s BR tunnel projects - Moorgate taking over Northern city from LT, Argyle line re-opening, and the Mersey loop and link lines that led to 313s 314s and 507s. BR SR got 508s (and ER 315s) only because they were the standard suburban type at the time. 455s - or any of the Mk3 type EMU do not fit the bored Mersey Wirral line 'loop' tunnel - and I'm pretty sure not the Northern line 'link' tunnel either. Hence the simplest solution was move the 508s (or 3/4 of each unit) and SR have new 455s. As an aside, I know there is a lot written that says it was always planned that 508s would end up on Mersey, but as far as I can remmeber that was not actually true when the 508s were ordered but came about before they entered service, possibly even before they were built.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As an aside, I know there is a lot written that says it was always planned that 508s would end up on Mersey, but as far as I can remmeber that was not actually true when the 508s were ordered but came about before they entered service, possibly even before they were built.

Although not involved in the 508 (SR) project from the ground up, I was one of those involved in planning their entry to service in a small way, and AFAIR never heard any whispers about them only being a short term thing, so would concur with your comments. Not to say that those at a higher pay grade may well have been involved in such plans without us lesser mortals knowing of course!

 

[D7666]

Although not involved in the 508 (SR) project from the ground up, I was one of those involved in planning their entry to service in a small way, and AFAIR never heard any whispers about them only being a short term thing, so would concur with your comments. Not to say that those at a higher pay grade may well have been involved in such plans without us lesser mortals knowing of course!

TY
I'm pleased at least one other person, yourself, agrees with that recall from that far past.


There is another EMU like this: a different manner, but nonetheless a change after order, but before delivery, although, digressing, not Pep EMU, but Mk3. 317s. When BedPan was conceived and planned, it was a 90 mph project not 100 mph, and 317s when ordered were specified to be 90 mph not 100 mph. This was altered after the order was placed with BREL but before entry to service. I do not know if change was done before or during construction. This explains the slightly different but noticeable performances between a 317 and 319 - overall they are not that different, but their acceleration rates do not exactly match each other the entire way from 1 to 100 mph

TY
I'm pleased at least one other person, yourself, agrees with that recall from that far past. Likewise my recall was from what was available in the public domain, being outside it all, and yes there may well have been a plan at executive manager level but if so it was sure confidential.


There is another EMU like this: a different manner, but nonetheless a change after order, but before delivery, although, digressing, not Pep EMU, but Mk3. 317s. When BedPan was conceived and planned, it was a 90 mph project not 100 mph, and 317s when ordered were specified to be 90 mph not 100 mph. This was altered after the order was placed with BREL but before entry to service. I do not know if change was done before or during construction. This explains the slightly different but noticeable performances between a 317 and 319 - overall they are not that different, but their acceleration rates do not exactly match each other the entire way from 1 to 100 mph

 

[Enmgy17]

Apologies for the bump, but I've been a lurker around these forums for a few years now and finally decided to join the discussion myself.

I have a copy of the 1981 and 1982 RCTS stock books on me, and Wimbledon seemed to hold onto the older units regardless of the EPB Facelift programme and the 4SUB withdrawals.

Wimbledon's 1981 allocations had as follows:
4SUB: 4617-21/23/26-33/35-39/41/43/45/48-51/53-60/66/68-70
4EPB: 5101-02/04-28, 5352/53
2EPB: 5670-84, 5746-53, 57-61, and all the ex Tyneside units (5781-95)
2HAP: 6001-15
4VEP: 7808-8753
508 : 508001-043

1982 saw a small reduction in units and mostly transfers in, likely to start making inroads on the remaining SUB units:
4SUB: 4617-18/20/23/26/29-31/33/37/39/45/49/51/54/56-60/66/68-69
4EPB: 5101-02/04-19/21-28 (5352/53 moved to SG)
2EPB: 5756-5779, 5781-95 (It appears SG and WD did a swap of 5670-84 and 5761-79)
2HAP: 6001-6016, 6090-105
4VEP: 7811-7853 (7808-810 moved to BI)
508: 508001-041 and Stored TS vehicles 71567/71568 (042 and 043 sent to Merseyrail by this time)

Of course once the 455's came in that changed most of everything here, but I'm in the dark after that regrettably.

The contributor who sent me the CWN has messaged me saying he's happy to share with you, so I'll send the relevant scans (the ones including Waterloo) to you via PM.

A bit cheeky of me to ask but any chance I could get a copy of these? I have the 1981 SWD WTT lying around are am interested to see how these stand up with the allocations.

 

[nw1]

Apologies for the bump, but I've been a lurker around these forums for a few years now and finally decided to join the discussion myself.

I have a copy of the 1981 and 1982 RCTS stock books on me, and Wimbledon seemed to hold onto the older units regardless of the EPB Facelift programme and the 4SUB withdrawals.

Wimbledon's 1981 allocations had as follows:
4SUB: 4617-21/23/26-33/35-39/41/43/45/48-51/53-60/66/68-70
4EPB: 5101-02/04-28, 5352/53
2EPB: 5670-84, 5746-53, 57-61, and all the ex Tyneside units (5781-95)
2HAP: 6001-15
4VEP: 7808-8753
508 : 508001-043

1982 saw a small reduction in units and mostly transfers in, likely to start making inroads on the remaining SUB units:
4SUB: 4617-18/20/23/26/29-31/33/37/39/45/49/51/54/56-60/66/68-69
4EPB: 5101-02/04-19/21-28 (5352/53 moved to SG)
2EPB: 5756-5779, 5781-95 (It appears SG and WD did a swap of 5670-84 and 5761-79)
2HAP: 6001-6016, 6090-105
4VEP: 7811-7853 (7808-810 moved to BI)
508: 508001-041 and Stored TS vehicles 71567/71568 (042 and 043 sent to Merseyrail by this time)

Of course once the 455's came in that changed most of everything here, but I'm in the dark after that regrettably.


A bit cheeky of me to ask but any chance I could get a copy of these? I have the 1981 SWD WTT lying around are am interested to see how these stand up with the allocations.

Interesting. I have the CWNs for both 1981 and 1982 (sent to me by other contributors) and it's noticeable that there was a switch from 2EPBs to HAPs going from 1981 to 1982 on mainline services, with many instances of a 2EPB being replaced by a 2HAP in 1982.

Incidentally were some of the HAPs from this list withdrawn during 1982? I have a distinct memory of the Wimbledon HAPs being discontinuous in late 1982 and throughout 1983. From memory (about 90% sure of this, as I used the Portsmouth Direct almost daily at this time) they were: 6002, 6007, 6011, 6013, 6019, 6022, 6023, 6024, 6029, 6090, 6092, 6093, 6096, 6097, 6100, 6102, 6103 and 6105. Many gaps there but also five units not present on your list. Perhaps tied in with this was that one service booked for 2HAP+4CIG in the 1982 CWN (the 0802 Portsmouth-Waterloo) was always a single CIG when I saw it a few times in spring 1983.

The VEPs from 7811-53 were exactly as I remember from 1982/3.

A bit cheeky of me to ask but any chance I could get a copy of these? I have the 1981 SWD WTT lying around are am interested to see how these stand up with the allocations.

I'll ask the person who sent me the 1982 CWN as they are on here. I think it'll be OK as they have said yes to another person, but just need to check.

The 1981 CWN was sent to me by someone on the BR Coaching Stock group so I'll have to see if I can track them down. Might be a little trickier, but will try. If no luck, feel free to ask me for detail.

1981 and 1982 were not drastically different, though as noted above some 2EPBs on mainline services were replaced by HAPs. There were also some shortenings of some peak services (a few 12-to-10s and the odd 12-to-8) on the Portsmouth Direct.

 

[Enmgy17]

Incidentally were some of the HAPs from this list withdrawn during 1982? I have a distinct memory of the Wimbledon HAPs being discontinuous in late 1982 and throughout 1983.

A good chunk indeed were removed from this list during the year. The RCTS books only listed what was current from the start of the year. When the actual 1982 TT started in May 6001/03/06/09/12-15/99/104 had become 4CAPs and moved to the CD and 6094/101 had been withdrawn. 6095 went during the middle of the timetable around October.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't think the South Western division served Guildford via Epsom, or Horsham at the time - just Dorking and Effingham Junction. Might be wrong though.

I'm pretty sure that the SUBs went to Horsham until the end. 508s were frequent visitors too. I think Waterloo trains ceased by the mid 1980s.

When did 2EPBs finish working Wimbledon - West Croydon? I'm sure they ran up the very late 1980s when the shiny 456's took over. Were they Wimbledon-allocated EPBs or Selhurst-allocated?

The 2EPBs finished with the May 1993 timetable change. As far as I know, all 34 of them ran up to that date with most of them transferring to Slade Green over the weekend. I expect the Wimbledon line was probably worked by EPBs until that time.

 

[nw1]

I'm pretty sure that the SUBs went to Horsham until the end. 508s were frequent visitors too. I think Waterloo trains ceased by the mid 1980s.

Looking back at the post I was probably looking at the date 1987 in doubting the existence of SWD services to Horsham (I was aware they existed earlier in the 80s), though that was probably my fault as the post actually said "up to 1987".

From the 1982 CWN the SWD Horsham workings were as follows:

Up (ex Horsham)

0656 8SUB
0724 8SUB
0826 4 508
0915 4 508
1715 8SUB
1815 8EPB
1915 8 508

Down (ex Waterloo)

0642 4 508, forms 0826
0742 4 508, forms 0915
1542 8SUB, forms 1715
1642 8EPB, forms 1815
1722 8SUB, forms 0656 next day
1742 8 508, forms 1915
1842 8SUB, forms 0724 next day

So three classes were indeed represented, despite the workings being peak-only.

1982 also saw three peak-hour Bognor services, so quite a mix down the line during the peak.

Off-peak it was an hourly Victoria service.

By 1985 Dorking-Horsham had been severely degraded, with no off-peak service at all, the loss of the Bognor peaks, and (I think) the loss of the Waterloo services.

As an aside does anyone have a 1984 timetable (either GBPTT or WTT) for the area? I've always wondered about 1984/5 as I never saw that year's Central Division timetable and would be interesting to see how similar it was to 1985/6.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Horsham had a multitude of stock berthing sidings back then, all using original (location type) names as I recall, although most were occupied by SC stock each night.

As far as I know, all 34 of them ran up to that date with most of them transferring to Slade Green over the weekend

That brings back vague memories, not that particular move, possibly not a weekend I planned, but when inter-divisional stock moves were required (known loosely as a 'changeover weekend' by some) usually associated with a timetable change, the STP side of the two divisions concerned would arrange these between them.

 

[nw1]

Horsham had a multitude of stock berthing sidings back then, all using original (location type) names as I recall, although most were occupied by SC stock each night.

Looking at the 1982 CD CWN, there is:

Up Siding (used continuously off-peak to shunt arrivals from Victoria, both via Gatwick and via Dorking)
No.1 Down Siding
No.2 Down Siding
Down Siding (not sure if this is a typo and refers to one of the two above, as it's only used during daytime, not overnight)
No.3 Branch Siding
No.4 Branch Siding
Malthouse Siding

Most also used during daytime to hold stock between peaks.

 

[Bikeman78]

Looking back at the post I was probably looking at the date 1987 in doubting the existence of SWD services to Horsham (I was aware they existed earlier in the 80s), though that was probably my fault as the post actually said "up to 1987".

From the 1982 CWN the SWD Horsham workings were as follows:

Up (ex Horsham)

0656 8SUB
0724 8SUB
0826 4 508
0915 4 508
1715 8SUB
1815 8EPB
1915 8 508

Down (ex Waterloo)

0642 4 508, forms 0826
0742 4 508, forms 0915
1542 8SUB, forms 1715
1642 8EPB, forms 1815
1722 8SUB, forms 0656 next day
1742 8 508, forms 1915
1842 8SUB, forms 0724 next day

So three classes were indeed represented, despite the workings being peak-only.

1982 also saw three peak-hour Bognor services, so quite a mix down the line during the peak.

Off-peak it was an hourly Victoria service.

By 1985 Dorking-Horsham had been severely degraded, with no off-peak service at all, the loss of the Bognor peaks, and (I think) the loss of the Waterloo services.

As an aside does anyone have a 1984 timetable (either GBPTT or WTT) for the area? I've always wondered about 1984/5 as I never saw that year's Central Division timetable and would be interesting to see how similar it was to 1985/6.

Good to confirm that I am not losing the plot. I was only a small child when the SUBs finished but I can recall seeing all over blue trains, along with the shiny brand new 508s. By the late 1980s, Dorking to Horsham was two hourly off peak. I think they were all non stop from Horsham to Holmwood. In the peaks it ramped up to half hourly.

That brings back vague memories, not that particular move, possibly not a weekend I planned, but when inter-divisional stock moves were required (known loosely as a 'changeover weekend' by some) usually associated with a timetable change, the STP side of the two divisions concerned would arrange these between them.

Some Central division trains ran into the South Eastern side of Victoria at the end of the Friday evening peak. I guess the rest moved ECS over the weekend. Several weeks later, there were still complete formations of Selhurst EPBs, complete with SU stickers and South London Lines logos.

Looking at the 1982 CD CWN, there is:

Up Siding (used continuously off-peak to shunt arrivals from Victoria, both via Gatwick and via Dorking)
No.1 Down Siding
No.2 Down Siding
Down Siding (not sure if this is a typo and refers to one of the two above, as it's only used during daytime, not overnight)
No.3 Branch Siding
No.4 Branch Siding
Malthouse Siding

Most also used during daytime to hold stock between peaks.

I do remember the VEPs used to go off platform 1 when they departed at xx16 and xx46. In the early 1990s, the up Bognor trains changed from xx56 and xx49 and ran via Redhill. At the same time, the stoppers switched to xx02 and xx32 and reversed on platform 4. Dorking trains almost always arrived on platform 3 and shunted via the up siding to platform 1. There was a 4EPB stabled in the up siding off peak, and various EPBs and VEPs in the down sidings.

There are three sidings on the down side next to the station, see photo below. The longer sidings can take 10 cars, the third one branches off number 2 and holds six cars. The Malthouse siding is the reversing side to gain access to the down sidings. It hold 16 cars, so you can stable an eight car and still get eight on or off the other sidings.

Horsham Down Carriage sidings, West Sussex. 4 VEP unit 3403 & 4 CIG unit 1714. Circa 2005

Explore SRSignalman's 563 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Class 455s were all in service by 1985, which is the year before I became a regular commuter first from Richmond and later (from 1993) Kingston. I don't recall any EPBs from that period, although CIGs and VEPs were of course still on the Reading services and, even in the early 1990s, could be seen on the odd Kingston line service.

 

[nw1]

The Class 455s were all in service by 1985, which is the year before I became a regular commuter first from Richmond and later (from 1993) Kingston. I don't recall any EPBs from that period, although CIGs and VEPs were of course still on the Reading services and, even in the early 1990s, could be seen on the odd Kingston line service.

I think there were a few 2EPBs around still then. The 1813 Waterloo-Alton (fast to Ash Vale) was formed 4VEP+2EPB (presumably the lack of Woking stop meant they could get away with 6 cars). I remember some of the Guildford via Ascot in the peak conveyed portions for Weybridge which were marked 2nd class only, so presumably they could only have been 2EPB.

The 4EPBs were all gone by then though. Not sure of the date, possibly May 1984 as that was when 455s were introduced on the Cobham line.

 

[AY1975]

The 2EPBs finished with the May 1993 timetable change. As far as I know, all 34 of them ran up to that date with most of them transferring to Slade Green over the weekend. I expect the Wimbledon line was probably worked by EPBs until that time.

I'm fairly sure that the Wimbledon-West Croydon line went over to 456s with the start of the 1991/92 winter timetable, though.

I think there were a few 2EPBs around still then. The 1813 Waterloo-Alton (fast to Ash Vale) was formed 4VEP+2EPB (presumably the lack of Woking stop meant they could get away with 6 cars). I remember some of the Guildford via Ascot in the peak conveyed portions for Weybridge which were marked 2nd class only, so presumably they could only have been 2EPB.

The 4EPBs were all gone by then though. Not sure of the date, possibly May 1984 as that was when 455s were introduced on the Cobham line.

As I recall the last EPBs (both 2- and 4-EPB) disappeared from the South Western Division by about 1985/86 once the 455s were all in service. The remaining SWD EPBs were probably latterly used mainly in peak hours, or may have lost all booked workings but been kept in reserve to stand in for failed 455s for a short while. As with the remaining Central Division EPBs in 1993, I think many of the remaining serviceable SWD EPBs moved to the South Eastern Division.

 

[nw1]

I'm fairly sure that the Wimbledon-West Croydon line went over to 456s with the start of the 1991/92 winter timetable, though.

As I recall the last EPBs (both 2- and 4-EPB) disappeared from the South Western Division by about 1985/86 once the 455s were all in service. The remaining SWD EPBs were probably latterly used mainly in peak hours, or may have lost all booked workings but been kept in reserve to stand in for failed 455s for a short while. As with the remaining Central Division EPBs in 1993, I think many of the remaining serviceable SWD EPBs moved to the South Eastern Division.

Probably true as the only 2EPBs I saw were peak (the above Alton service, plus, by process of deduction, peak Weybridge via Chertsey services).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As with the remaining Central Division EPBs in 1993

The last CD CWN issue that included EPB's was that dated 28 Sept 1992 to 16 May 1993. They had all gone by the time of the summer issue commencing 17 May. I still have my old copies, so if anyone wants details of their workings feel free to ask.

 

[nw1]

The last CD CWN issue that included EPB's was that dated 28 Sept 1992 to 16 May 1993. They had all gone by the time of the summer issue commencing 17 May. I still have my old copies, so if anyone wants details of their workings feel free to ask.

Ah, that's interesting. You don't happen to have CWNs from a little earlier for either the CD or the SWD? Particularly the September 1987 to May 1990 timetables (inclusive). (This is more for mainline services though, rather than suburban). Thanks.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Afraid not. Was only involved with SC for a short period, and as mentioned sometime previously, never kept many of my 'as issued' SW copies. Sorry!

 

[nw1]

Afraid not. Was only involved with SC for a short period, and as mentioned sometime previously, never kept many of my 'as issued' SW copies. Sorry!

OK thanks, no worries! Yes, I think I asked about SW before but just thought I'd try SC.

However a couple of questions on the SC CWN that you do have:

Were there any "atypical" stock workings on mainline (ex-Victoria or London Bridge) services off-peak? What I mean by that is, VEPs on routes generally operated by CIGs, or CIGs on routes generally operated by VEPs?

Did the East Grinstead line still have EPBs in the peak at this stage?

Thanks.

 

[Bikeman78]

OK thanks, no worries! Yes, I think I asked about SW before but just thought I'd try SC.

However a couple of questions on the SC CWN that you do have:

Were there any "atypical" stock workings on mainline (ex-Victoria or London Bridge) services off-peak? What I mean by that is, VEPs on routes generally operated by CIGs, or CIGs on routes generally operated by VEPs?

Did the East Grinstead line still have EPBs in the peak at this stage?

Thanks.

The EPBs ran to East Grinstead right up to May 1993. In fact there were no 8VEPs on that line at all. The first six departures all had EPBs attached, three six cars and three eight cars. One of the six cars ran all day. One wonders what happened to the six cars when the EPBs went. Did they go up to eight or down to four?

Of note, 2E03 0614 Dorking to Victoria and 2E10 0717 Victoria to Horsham were booked 4VEP. They were booked VEP workings almost to the end of slam door workings but I hadn't realised they went as far back as 1992.

London Bridge Central was 100% sliding door off peak. Victoria is pretty much as expected apart from this VEP+BIG pair.
0832 Victoria to Brighton (with CIG attached rear)
1000 Brighton to Victoria
1132 Victoria to Brighton
1300 Brighton to Victoria
1432 Victoria to Brighton
1600 Brighton to Victoria (with CIG attached rear, forms 1723 SOU/LIT)

Other oddball workings include
0642 Bognor to Victoria VEP+BIG+CIG
1847/2047 Victoria to Horsham and 2019/2219 return CIG+VEP.

The evening peak had a few noteworthy sets.

From London Bridge
1732 to Brighton and Hastings CIG+VEP
1746 to West Worthing CIG+CIG+VEP
1759 to Eastbourne CIG+VEP
1817 to Littlehampton BIG+VEP
1847 to Brighton 8VEP (came empty from Crawley)

From Victoria
1551 to Hastings BIG+CIG+VEP
1707 to Brighton BIG+CIG+VEP
1723 to Southampton and Littlehampton CIG+BIG+VEP
1737 to Brighton VEP+BIG+VEP
1807 to Brighton VEP+BIG+CIG
1832 to Southampton and Littlehampton CIG+BIG+VEP

 

[nw1]

The EPBs ran to East Grinstead right up to May 1993. In fact there were no 8VEPs on that line at all. The first six departures all had EPBs attached, three six cars and three eight cars. One of the six cars ran all day. One wonders what happened to the six cars when the EPBs went. Did they go up to eight or down to four?

Of note, 2E03 0614 Dorking to Victoria and 2E10 0717 Victoria to Horsham were booked 4VEP. They were booked VEP workings almost to the end of slam door workings but I hadn't realised they went as far back as 1992.

London Bridge Central was 100% sliding door off peak. Victoria is pretty much as expected apart from this VEP+BIG pair.
0832 Victoria to Brighton (with CIG attached rear)
1000 Brighton to Victoria
1132 Victoria to Brighton
1300 Brighton to Victoria
1432 Victoria to Brighton
1600 Brighton to Victoria (with CIG attached rear, forms 1723 SOU/LIT)

Other oddball workings include
0642 Bognor to Victoria VEP+BIG+CIG
1847/2047 Victoria to Horsham and 2019/2219 return CIG+VEP.

The evening peak had a few noteworthy sets.

From London Bridge
1732 to Brighton and Hastings CIG+VEP
1746 to West Worthing CIG+CIG+VEP
1759 to Eastbourne CIG+VEP
1817 to Littlehampton BIG+VEP
1847 to Brighton 8VEP (came empty from Crawley)

From Victoria
1551 to Hastings BIG+CIG+VEP
1707 to Brighton BIG+CIG+VEP
1723 to Southampton and Littlehampton CIG+BIG+VEP
1737 to Brighton VEP+BIG+VEP
1807 to Brighton VEP+BIG+CIG
1832 to Southampton and Littlehampton CIG+BIG+VEP

Thanks for the info, some interesting combinations here. In particular CIG/VEP combinations seemed rare to the point of non-existence around 1986, 1987, 1988 when I was most familiar with the CD and its workings. This contrasts with the SWD where they were quite common.

Interesting the EPBs carried on to East Grinstead that late. ISTR there was also an all-day 6-car back in May 1988 shortly after electrification too. In both 1987 and 1988 there were (IIRC) 5 off-peak diagrams, two CIG-operated and three VEP-operated (one of the VEPs with 2EPB attached), There were one or two 8VEPs on the line in the peak then, I think one VEP was berthed at East Grinstead off peak which attached to another to form an up service towards the evening peak.

So obviously East Grinstead no longer went to LBG off-peak by 1992/93? (Post-electrification it was of course alternate VIC / LBG).

Bit of a long shot I know but do you have the 1987 or 1988 info? Would be interesting to see if my memories are correct...

 

[Bikeman78]

Thanks for the info, some interesting combinations here. In particular CIG/VEP combinations seemed rare to the point of non-existence around 1986, 1987, 1988 when I was most familiar with the CD and its workings. This contrasts with the SWD where they were quite common.

Interesting the EPBs carried on to East Grinstead that late. ISTR there was also an all-day 6-car back in May 1988 shortly after electrification too. In both 1987 and 1988 there were (IIRC) 5 off-peak diagrams, two CIG-operated and three VEP-operated (one of the VEPs with 2EPB attached in, I think, 1988), There were one or two 8VEPs on the line in the peak then, I think one VEP was berthed at East Grinstead off peak which attached to another to form an up service towards the evening peak.

So obviously East Grinstead no longer went to LBG off-peak by 1992/93? (Post-electrification it was of course alternate VIC / LBG).

Bit of a long shot I know but do you have the 1987 or 1988 info? Would be interesting to see if my memories are correct...

All my info came from Big Jumby 74 off the CWN mentioned above. As you say, all trains to Victoria. Still five sets with generous turn rounds at both ends. A single 2EPB berthed in the siding and a pair in platform 1 between the peaks.

The most bizarre combination I have found is 5N70 08+44 London Bridge to Streatham Hill formed VEP+EPB+EPB+VEP. Formed off two inbound six cars.