2003/2004 WCML coachng stock query

[eMeS]

Some info please.

I've found some old videos of passenger express trains shot in 2003/2004 on the WCML. They're not Pendolinos or Super Voyagers. They appear to have an electric loco and a DVT, but what Mark are the coaches? Thanks

 

[Manchester77]

Mark II and III coaches hauled by class 86s (three cab windows), class 87s (two cab windows) and class 90s (as on GEML now). The DVT will be a Mark III DVT.

 

[eMeS]

Many thanks - I might be safe uploading some of the videos to Youtube now, without getting slaughtered for a wrong description!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The mk2s typically worked ebw diagrams with cl86 locos while the mk 3's did Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland work with the 87's and 90's All catering vehicles were mk 3's as were the dvt's.

 

[jopsuk]

For easy identification, as length isn't immediatly obvious:
The mark 3s have ridges on the roof and fairings round the equipment under the body. The mark 2s have smooth roofs and exposed equipment.

 

[SprinterMan]

Here is a quick guide to Virgin's old electric stock, courtesy of railfaneurope.net...

Class 86

Class 87

Class 90

Mark 2 Coach

Mark 3 Coach

Mark 3 DVT

Adam

 

[jopsuk]

On a bit of an off-topic ramble, it one of the oddities of BR's carriage production that the mark 2 rakes had mark 3 catering vehicles- other than an early build of Pullman vehicles, the mark 2 build didn't include many catering vehicles, with such facilities being provided initially by mark 1s (there was an excess of catering vehicles) and in latter days mark 3s- the first version of the Welsh Assembly express being the most recent example, other than charter rakes, of this.

 

[142056]

What's always struck me as odd is that Virgin seemingly managed to get all their vehicles in the new livery, wheras in a similar space of time other TOCs (I'm thinking Northern) still had it in previous liveries. A case of priorities or conveniently they all needed re-liverying at the start of the Virgin franchise?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Were Pendos and voyager in service by then or did they come later on?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What's always struck me as odd is that Virgin seemingly managed to get all their vehicles in the new livery, wheras in a similar space of time other TOCs (I'm thinking Northern) still had it in previous liveries. A case of priorities or conveniently they all needed re-liverying at the start of the Virgin franchise?

There's a few reasons for this. Beardie Branson is very image-conscious so rebranding was a priority (though XC took longer than WC if I recall). Northern wasn't a single franchise at privatisation- RRNE (Northern Spirit, later Arriva Trains Northern) and RRNW (NWT/First North Western) did still have a lot of stock still in old BR liveries by the time they were merged to form Northern though.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

XC mk2 rakes featured mk2 catering vehicles, although these were conversions as opposed to purpose built. RFO - Refreshment First Open converted from FO vehicles seated approx 28, disabled wheelchair space and a servery and buffet counter at the opposite end.

 

[sprinterguy]

What's always struck me as odd is that Virgin seemingly managed to get all their vehicles in the new livery, wheras in a similar space of time other TOCs (I'm thinking Northern) still had it in previous liveries. A case of priorities or conveniently they all needed re-liverying at the start of the Virgin franchise?

That was not the case at all. Virgin were very, very slow to re-livery their HSTs and loco hauled rakes compared to the likes of GNER or Midland Mainline. In fact, Virgin still had at least one Intercity liveried mark 2 rake remaining when the trains were withdrawn from Crosscountry service in 2002. Piebald train formations on both the Crosscountry HSTs and West Coast loco hauled trains, with trains displaying a mix of Virgin and Intercity liveries, were prevalent right into the 21st century. Except for the few vehicles reliveried as part of the franchise launch, Virgin only reliveried their inherited rolling stock when it became due for works attention.

 

[CC 72100]

That was not the case at all. Virgin were very, very slow to re-livery their HSTs and loco hauled rakes compared to the likes of GNER or Midland Mainline. In fact, Virgin still had at least one Intercity liveried mark 2 rake remaining when the trains were withdrawn from Crosscountry service in 2002. Piebald train formations on both the Crosscountry HSTs and West Coast loco hauled trains, with trains displaying a mix of Virgin and Intercity liveries, were prevalent right into the 21st century. Except for the few vehicles reliveried as part of the franchise launch, Virgin only reliveried their inherited rolling stock when it became due for works attention.

Wasn't there one 47 which either never lost (or did very late on) it's Intercity Swallow livery? Can't remember which one for the life of me, although I believe it was one of the 'lower' ones, ie. the number was under 825 or something.

Many a happy memories flying down the sea wall behind a 47 when I was 7 or 8, seems so long ago - HSTs are great, but you can't beat a 47 and mark 2s!

 

[theblackwatch]

Wasn't there one 47 which either never lost (or did very late on) it's Intercity Swallow livery? Can't remember which one for the life of me, although I believe it was one of the 'lower' ones, ie. the number was under 825 or something.

You are thinking of 47826, which even received a repaint in this colour scheme when Virgin painted various 47s in heritage colour schemes towards the end of its Class 47 operations. The loco then passed to West Coast Railways who continued to operate it in this livery prior eventually repainting into corporate WCRC colours.

 

[CC 72100]

You are thinking of 47826, which even received a repaint in this colour scheme when Virgin painted various 47s in heritage colour schemes towards the end of its Class 47 operations. The loco then passed to West Coast Railways who continued to operate it in this livery prior eventually repainting into corporate WCRC colours.

Ah yes, I remember the 'heritage' liveries towards the end. One was largo logo, one green, one blue, and one (826) IC Swallow? I'd have much rather it stayed in IC Swallow, I don't like the WCRC livery, sorry guys!

Out of interest, does anyone know what was the last Virgin 47 to be repainted then?

 

[sprinterguy]

Ah yes, I remember the 'heritage' liveries towards the end. One was largo logo, one green, one blue, and one (826) IC Swallow? I'd have much rather it stayed in IC Swallow, I don't like the WCRC livery, sorry guys!

Yes indeed - 47851 was painted BR Green, 47853 was repainted into the unique XP64 blue livery that it carried in the sixties, 47847 was large logo blue and 47826 retained IC Swallow.

I wholeheartedly agree with your distaste for the West Coast livery - They've missed out on so many opportunities to celebrate several "celebrity" locos and liveries that they have inherited by daubing every loco they own in that uninspiring drab brown (It doesn't match the maroon shade of the carriages at all, especially on the vast slab sided body sides of a class 47) "livery" of theirs. The railtour market is one place on the railways where a bit of variety still sells tickets, and West Coast are missing a trick there!
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You are thinking of 47826, which even received a repaint in this colour scheme when Virgin painted various 47s in heritage colour schemes towards the end of its Class 47 operations.

I am certainly inclined to believe you, but did Virgin really go to the lengths of giving 47826 a fresh coat of Intercity Swallow livery in 2002? I thought that the loco had simply been left "as was".
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Northern wasn't a single franchise at privatisation- RRNE (Northern Spirit, later Arriva Trains Northern) and RRNW (NWT/First North Western) did still have a lot of stock still in old BR liveries by the time they were merged to form Northern though.

All things considered, the first incumbents of the privatised Regional Railways North East and North West franchises didn't do so badly in terms of applying their own liveries:

Northern Spirit re-liveried all of their Pacer and Sprinter DMUs that retained their "as delivered" Provincial Sector liveries: All of the "Express" liveried 158s received the Transpennine Express gold and plum livery, including the four units (158737, 742 - 744) that transferred from Scotrail later in the franchise, and Northern Spirit also re-liveried the five class 142s that still retained their original Provincial liveries: 142025 and 142026 carrying the Cornish "Skipper" brown and cream livery, and 142050/065/066 in Provincial light blue. The entire North East class 156 fleet followed suit as part of their refurbishment between 1999 and 2001.

The greater part of Northern Spirit's class 142 fleet retained either Regional Railways or Tyne & Wear PTE livery, which had only been applied to the units comparatively recently between 1992 and 1994. The class 153s were similar, in that they had only been converted and had Regional Railways livery applied between 1992 and 1993. Arriva Trains Northern later completed the application of their turquoise house colours to the 142s and 153s, so the only units that remained in Regional Railways livery when they passed to Northern were eleven 150/2s.

North West Trains/FNW were even bolder in their approach in that they sought to eradicate the GMPTE livery that was a Regional Railways development only introduced to the North West's 142s, 150s and 323s between 1991 and 1994, as well as replacing the Regional Railways livery that was carried by the 153s and the Provincial "Express" livery carried by the 158s. North West Trains livery also replaced Merseyrail livery on the few 150/2s that carried it as part of the FNW refurbishment. The "green stripe" Regional Railways livery that was carried by the North West's class 156 fleet had actually only been launched in 1994/95 as part of BR's "shadow franchises", so was nowhere near ready for replacement when North West Trains/FNW were active.