2018 infrastructure/rolling-stock investment - enough to silence the critics?

[Dore & Totley]

In my opinion the answer to the OP's question lies in part as to where you live. In 2018 in Sheffield I will still have Pacers until 2020 and still have the pinch point of Dore between two of the Country's largest cities. Still have the regular breakdowns of our only ticket machine at Dore. But I will still use the train to get to Manchester as it's still slightly quicker than driving on the long and winding road.

 

[JetStream]

Never.

Next question.

 

[mrcheek]

So we get plenty of moans on here about the state of the UK railways despite the fact there is currently massive investment in the railways, unfortunately much of that has a long lead time and NR's vastly over budget and late electrification hasn't helped, but 2018 will start to see some of the fruits of that investment, including at the start of the New Year we get 387's to Didcot, more electrified route for IET's and the start of a significant cascade of Turbo Units to Bristol, HST's to Scotland, more DMU's for Northern, also later in the year full electric service between Glasgow and Edinburgh completion of Blackpool - Manchester electrification etc. etc.

Will this shut some of the moaners up? although I don't expect moaning about the seats will stop

nope, complaining is essential to being British, as much as drinking tea! Even if perfection were achieved, people would complain "well, things arent like they used to be"

 

[cambsy]

The moaners will always moan, but if your commute is being squashed up, late running or timetable gets worse for you, then suppose you have reason to moan, I moan mainly at work about my job, and my train travel is always leisure, so its my escape from work etc etc, so will be interested too see what fruits 2018 investment in railways bring, and at least money is being spent on the railways, trying to improve it, maybe not always in the best ways.

 

[Macwomble]

NOT a prayer.

Doesn't matter what you give the Great British public they always want more & always want to moan.

 

[Dentonian]

And the daily signal failure somewhere on the network.

Marple mostly, not that you will see it on the periodic performance reviews posted in stations.

 

[6Gman]

nope, complaining is essential to being British, as much as drinking tea! Even if perfection were achieved, people would complain "well, things arent like they used to be"

I once travelled from Exeter to Birmingham New Street sitting opposite a couple who spent the whole journey complaining. The odd thing was that 50% of their complaints were essentially "it's always been the same..." and the other 50% were "it never used to be like this". They seemed unaware of the paradox.

 

[F Great Eastern]

See the stuff in the press today about how old on average rolling stock is in the UK for how people like to have a moan about the UK Railways.

I mean isn't it disgusting how many new trains have entered in service over the last few years to expand services and are due to do so in the near future - surely it would be better if we just replaced everything old first? I mean that wouldn't cause any problems at all would it?

Also hypocritical that some of the same outlets who kick up a fuss about overcrowding are the same ones who are now essentially saying that having a newer train is more important than being able to get on it.

 

[DaveN]

DaveN I can't get my head around why Harpenden will lose services. I'm being dense. Could you elaborate for me? Thank you

Sure. Itf you look in the press release (https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u...s-announced-between-Bedford-Luton-and-London/) :

"Seven GTR services per hour will continue to run between Bedford, Luton and London during the three-hour morning and evening peaks. To ensure that passengers from Bedford continue to benefit from faster trains, two of these GTR trains each hour will become fast services calling only at Bedford, Luton, St Albans and London St Pancras, with a journey time of around 45 minutes. "

Those seven trains are the fast Harpenden ones - so that's the two that Harpenden will lose.

 

[SPADTrap]

Sure. Itf you look in the press release (https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u...s-announced-between-Bedford-Luton-and-London/) :

"Seven GTR services per hour will continue to run between Bedford, Luton and London during the three-hour morning and evening peaks. To ensure that passengers from Bedford continue to benefit from faster trains, two of these GTR trains each hour will become fast services calling only at Bedford, Luton, St Albans and London St Pancras, with a journey time of around 45 minutes. "

Those seven trains are the fast Harpenden ones - so that's the two that Harpenden will lose.

A-ha! I'm with you now. Thank you for explaining that

 

[AlanFry1]

Not really - White Hart Lane will have to contend with 62,000 football fans plus locals and tourists once the new stadium is built! With less trains and the new station construction running late.

 

[DanTrain]

In my opinion the answer to the OP's question lies in part as to where you live. In 2018 in Sheffield I will still have Pacers until 2020 and still have the pinch point of Dore between two of the Country's largest cities. Still have the regular breakdowns of our only ticket machine at Dore. But I will still use the train to get to Manchester as it's still slightly quicker than driving on the long and winding road.

Exactly. The service 'oop north' gives me very little sympathy for those complaining about Harpenden 'only' having 4tph or whatever, maybe they should try a lovely 2 hourly service we get!

 

[infobleep]

The train I'm on right now has a minor delay. It has two more carriages since Dec 2017 so more doors for people to use. Being a stopping service the exits are at different locations too, so one might expect more even spread of people boarding.

Yet despite that the train still has minor delays. It regularly comes to stand outside Surbtion station. Today it waited outside New Malden and was 4 minutes late into that station.

Maybe the timetable change in Dec 2018 will improve things or maybe because they are still using a lot of the existing stock, as new trains not in use by then, it won't. So people will moan. By new stock I mean the stuff on order.

This is before you get the infrastructure failures.

Minor delays might not be much but some passengers don't like them, especially when it's every single day.

The buses are definitely worse though but you hear less moans about those.

I have been known to work for an hour, rather than catch a bus and that is along a bus route that has 4 buses an hour. One every 15 minutes. Some those cases it might be that the bus was quicker but it might only be 10 minutes quicker. Now I can't run as fast as a bus moves so it's definitely cancellations and roadworks delays. There are other times when I wish I had walked too. Mostly it's fine but I will generally try to avoid getting a bus to catch a train if I can. The amount of extra time I'd need to leave, to be certain I'd make the train would make the bus not much faster than walking! Admittedly that is for a walk of under 30 minutes, rather than 1 hour.

 

[infobleep]

Here is an example of the kind of regular issues that occur. At 8:13 for Wimbledon station, National Rail Enquiries App showed the 8:11 to London Waterloo as being 1 minute late. It left 1 minute late.

The 8:14 was 3 minutes late but it left 2 minutes late. In this case they overestimated the delay.

The 8:17 was 5 minutes late. That was due to a door fault. As two stations had been cancelled, it actual made up time and only left 3 minutes late.

However the 8:20 was shown as on time and it left 5 minutes late. It was already 4 late at New Malden. Now by 8:13 it was 2 minutes away from New Malden so how could the system know it would be late at Wimbledon when it passed the Berrylands monitoring point just 1 minute late.

With one train scheduled to leave at 8:17 and the next one at 8:20 one night expect the delay to only be 3 minutes, given passengers only spent 1 minute boarding each train but it was 5 minutes that was the delay from Wimbledon. Passengers wouldn't understand where such additions of 2 minutes occur and they occur regularly. It's minor to be fair but of course the 5 minutesl total does count against the stats.

Or maybe it doesn't because it's the final station and it was only a minute late into Waterloo.

 

[mpthomson]

There's an old media saying that the answer to any question posed as a headline in the Express or Mail (not exclusively, but these two papers do it most often) like the OP's question or 'Do Illegal Immigrants Give You Cancer?' etc is always 'No'.

Same applies in this instance, Brits love having something to moan about!

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Regarding Northern will anything impressive have actually started by this time next year?

By impressive I'm thinking any of the new stock in service, any class 170s in service, any of the brand new services, Northern Connect etc.

With the strikes likely to still be continuing and the pacers still being the backbone of the fleet I expect moans will still continue throughout 2018 in this part of the world.

I should be able to get an E Port to Man Vic train in the peak.. Good on Northern..

 

[47802]

Of course while things will start to change in 2018 its going to be the end of 2019 before a lot of investment is fully realised particularly for Northern and the end of Pacers, and for some other franchises it will be even further, but I am of the view that things will change a lot in the next couple of years and there will be a lot less to moan about in terms of the service provided, I am sure there will be plenty of other things still to moan about like the fact for me many long distance rail fares are now very expensive even many book in advance fares are not so cheap now.

 

[al78]

There's an old media saying that the answer to any question posed as a headline in the Express or Mail (not exclusively, but these two papers do it most often) like the OP's question or 'Do Illegal Immigrants Give You Cancer?' etc is always 'No'.

Same applies in this instance, Brits love having something to moan about!

Why not moan about things that are poor? It is one way we can get improvements by standing up in numbers to sloppiness (no i am not implying the railways are sloppy, it can be applied in many areas).

It is not just railways that people complain about. I found the 25 sets of roadworks which disrupted my cycle journeys irritating last year, only to find as we go into a new year, same old crap, they have the good old temporary traffic lights up for the next two and a half months at one end of my road. It wouldn't be so bad if even one of these roadworks actually went towards improving the road surface.

 

[Starmill]

What an utterly ridiculous question to ask. What are you, 12?

 

[WatcherZero]

Certainly hasnt shut up the ASLEF childish moaning.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/article.php?group_id=6033

Numb bums on new trains
02 January 2018

Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has condemned Britain’s privatised train companies for selling passengers short – again – this time with numb bums on new trains. The train companies have been trumpeting the introduction of new trains on some services – carriages condemned by passengers for being uncomfortable.

‘The rolling stock on Britain’s railways is much older now, on average, than when the railways were privatised by John Major more than twenty years ago,’ said Mick. ‘We’re going backwards, not forwards.

‘We need more investment – and that should come from the train operating companies. Because the truth is that while fares keep going up and up, that’s not to underwrite investment, but to pay dividends to shareholders. The TOCs put up prices to boost profits, not to provide a better service.

‘While the few new trains are lighter and airier, the seats are much less comfortable than the old stock they replaced. They leave you with a numb bum – it’s no wonder passengers are complaining. The seats are much too hard – commuters say the train companies think you won’t mind having to stand – and the arm rests too low. And what about the missing tables the companies claim will be “retro-fitted” – when? Passengers justifiably complain they are being forced to travel “cattle class” by companies concerned only with cramming in as many people as possible.’

 

[driver_m]

Certainly hasnt shut up the ASLEF childish moaning.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/article.php?group_id=6033

Childish? I'd personally say your response to it is childish... Those damn unions again giving a damn about ordinary people. They make a rather good point as it happens.

 

[47802]

So we are blaming privatisation for hard seats now while the comment about old rolling stock is utterly pathetic given the thousands of carriages on order and he must surely know that

 

[LAX54]

And the daily signal failure somewhere on the network.

With the thousands and thousands of signals on the 'Network' a daily signal failure is quite trivial

 

[Failed Unit]

So we are blaming privatisation for hard seats now while the comment about old rolling stock is utterly pathetic given the thousands of carriages on order and he must surely know that

That would be an interesting one to prove. But it is all down to cost and the hard seats are cost cutting. Northern Rail selected the cheapest seat despite doing a trial and finding it was the one thier customer liked least. That said who knows if BR wouldn't have done the same thing. As to give the counter arguement Central trains did a good job on the 156 refurbishment (this is where someone will tell me that was started under BR) - EMT / Scotrail have done good jobs on the 158s - again I can't really compare but in the private days the refurbishments I can remember were new seat covers.

However as I mentioned on a previous post some areas are paying more with absolutely no timescale for improvements in service. Take Lincolnshire. Upgraded the Joint Line at a significant cost but any sign of it operating more than the 8 hours per day it did previously? Any sign of the end of cronic overcrowding on 153s? Maybe have lots of new trains on order, but many areas have not seen any improvements since privatisation (with non in the pipeline either) - Maybe the EMT franchise proposal once it is out may help - but again when will that be?

 

[Starmill]

So we are blaming privatisation for hard seats now while the comment about old rolling stock is utterly pathetic given the thousands of carriages on order and he must surely know that

How is it pathetic? The average age of rolling stock is older now than it was at privatisation. The privatised railway has failed to renew stock in a timely fashion. Surely that's obvious? A huge glut of new stock now followed by a lack of money for new trains in a few years will play havoc with the supply industry and does nothing to smooth the cycle.

This week alone we have had YouGov (an American "shamocracy" website) voicing their opinions about London (only) Rail commuters

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum - and there have been some pretty ridiculous things posted in the past.

I should be able to get an E Port to Man Vic train in the peak.. Good on Northern..

One single service in the morning? Wow yeah, really impressive...

 

[B&I]

Will 2018 see an end to people moaning about other people moaning?

 

[F Great Eastern]

How is it pathetic? The average age of rolling stock is older now than it was at privatisation. The privatised railway has failed to renew stock in a timely fashion.

Isn't it disgusting how many new trains have entered in service over the last few years to expand services and are due to do so in the near future - surely it would be better if we just replaced everything old first to bring the age down?

The simple fact is that the rolling stock has got older because there has been a huge boom in passenger numbers and the alternative would have been to not keep the older stock on and instead not expand capacity - many fleets that were supposed to be withdrawn by new stock ended up staying on because of huge increased in demand.

Lets also not forget that many of the oldest trains in the industry are also still in operation because the DFT takes 10 years from the start of a tender process for two big projects to see even the beginnings of the fruit to be bared of such tenders, not forgetting the SRA who prevented TOCs ordering stock and cut orders because there was 'no demand'.

No, it's far easier for the DFT to use the TOCs as a shield for it's own failings so they can continue taking the praise for anything good and shift the blame to someone else for anything bad because the general public know no better. It's essentially nationalising the praise and privatising the blame - almost all of the public blame the TOCs for DFT/SRA failings, and that suits the DFT just fine.

It's very noticeable none of these reports don't mention the number of carriages now in service versus the timeframe they are comparing them with, perhaps because that might not suit their agenda to be totally transparent.

 

[47802]

How is it pathetic? The average age of rolling stock is older now than it was at privatisation. The privatised railway has failed to renew stock in a timely fashion. Surely that's obvious? A huge glut of new stock now followed by a lack of money for new trains in a few years will play havoc with the supply industry and does nothing to smooth the cycle.
...

I suspect a significant contribution to increasing train age has been the protracted progress to HST replacement which is finally happening, and then we have nearly 200 new carriages entering service today with the new GWR timetable, along with the truly massive amounts of new rolling on order or being built some of which we will see in 2018 and some we have already seen with Thameslink. So to make out we have a few new trains and an old ancient stock is disingenuous at best.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres 50% more rolling stock now than at privatisation and its used a lot more intensively. Theres also 6000 carriages due for delivery over next two years and 3000 being retired. In two years time the fleet age is going to be much younger. And frankly yes it is childish to moan about sore bums, most of us are used to bench seats and zero leg room and are looking forward to the improvement of actual seats.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Theres 50% more rolling stock now than at privatisation and its used a lot more intensively.

That's been my point pretty much - Just speaking about the age going up is only half the story - better to have an older fleet age and a 50% increase in rolling stock than a newer fleet and a 25% increase in rolling stock when you take into account the passenger growth that has been going on.

Also as pointed out - the exceptionally poor management of DFT led projects have slowed up the rolling stock renewal process, as has the tendency for low or no growth franchises being specified and the political dithering and all the debacle with the micromanagement from the SRA.