2019 Bakerloo line extension consultation results

[LUYMun]

TfL have published their report on the consultations for the BLE today.

Bakerloo line extension - Transport for London - Citizen Space (tfl.gov.uk)
Bakerloo line extension consultation report (tfl.gov.uk)

Results updated 30 Nov 2020
In autumn 2019 we carried out a consultation on updated proposals for extending the Bakerloo line beyond Elephant & Castle to Lewisham, serving Old Kent Road and New Cross Gate. The consultation also sought to understand the level of support for a further extension beyond Lewisham to Hayes and Beckenham Junction.

We received 8,749 responses to the autumn 2019 consultation. We also received a consultation response from the Back the Bakerloo coalition on behalf of the 20,600 individuals who had signed up to their own campaign on the proposals. Many thanks to everyone who responded.

The majority of respondents made positive or supportive comments about our overall proposals (89%). There was also support (82%) for a possible further extension to Hayes and Beckenham Junction.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Probably a bit academic now given that the pandemic induced funding crisis has probably seen this project ‘paused’ for the foreseeable future

 

[Ianno87]

Quite an impressive level of support for going all the way to Hayes.

The "don't take away my train to Cannon Street train" cohort don't seem to have made much noise.

 

[Egg Centric]

Amazed and delighted at the number of responses - great to see 'normies' caring enough about public transport to go to the trouble of making a response.

Had no idea they were going to call a station 'Asylum'. That's a fantastic name!

 

[Mikey C]

I've no idea whether 8,749 responses is good or not. It's hardly a surprise people are going to be enthusiastic about a new tube line being built in their area

As for the Hayes extension response, I suspect it's because as part of the Tube network the stations would get a much better service and upgrades (to step free etc). If this could be done as part of the National Rail network (and yes I'm aware that it couldn't) then people would have supported that option as well

And looking the comments NON Hayes users will also be in favour of the Bakerloo Line scheme, as it frees up more space for extra trains on their lines!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Of course , there is a housing premium for areas served by a tube line. House prices would increase above the average at a sniff of a tube extension. One to vote "yes" for if you lived at say Eden Park or Clock House. (which are decent enough areas anyway)

Besides the double "H" line rolls of the tongue - "Hayes to Harrow"

 

[Horizon22]

Amazed and delighted at the number of responses - great to see 'normies' caring enough about public transport to go to the trouble of making a response.

Had no idea they were going to call a station 'Asylum'. That's a fantastic name!

Not guaranteed - in fact Old Kent Road came up higher but some are worried about that being 'vague', although some are also worried about negative connotations of Aslyum.

Of course , there is a housing premium for areas served by a tube line. House prices would increase above the average at a sniff of a tube extension. One to vote "yes" for if you lived at say Eden Park or Clock House. (which are decent enough areas anyway)

Besides the double "H" line rolls of the tongue - "Hayes to Harrow"

Which I've always found weird. When I did live in South London I could get to parts of C. London much quicker than those who lived solely on tube lines and indeed its the same where I live now. Not going to complain that where I live is cheaper because of some weirdly perceived 'premium'!

If the change at Lewisham is easy enough then Hayes line commuters won't have too much of an extra journey.

 

[Busaholic]

Not guaranteed - in fact Old Kent Road came up higher but some are worried about that being 'vague', although some are also worried about negative connotations of Aslyum.



Which I've always found weird. When I did live in South London I could get to parts of C. London much quicker than those who lived solely on tube lines and indeed its the same where I live now. Not going to complain that where I live is cheaper because of some weirdly perceived 'premium'!

If the change at Lewisham is easy enough then Hayes line commuters won't have too much of an extra journey.

Interesting that Asylum is being considered as a station name, particularly if the line extends to Hayes, given that Bethlem Royal Hospital (formerly Bedlam) lies close to both Eden Park and West Wickham stations, and one or other could very easily have had the Asylum name attached to them in times past when mental health issues were not treated with the compassion (in theory, anyway) that exists today.

 

[LUYMun]

When the consultation was open, I've particularly noticed that the station distances between them are longer than the typical rest of the Bakerloo line, particularly how the route avoids New Cross and St John's stations. If possible, it can repeat history and close the current St John's in favour of a new deep level station. I also wonder how convenient it would be for a foreseeing out-of-station interchange between the sites of Old Kent Road 2 and New Bermondsey - only if either are completed.

 

[Recessio]

When the consultation was open, I've particularly noticed that the station distances between them are longer than the typical rest of the Bakerloo line...

I've noticed this. Feels like they're really trying to build as few stations as possible. I'd personally like to see a station at Bricklayer's Arms, as I feel only two stations on the Old Kent Road is not future-proof with the planned housebuilding, but clearly those who crunch the numbers disagree with armchairs like me!

 

[317 forever]

Quite an impressive level of support for going all the way to Hayes.

The "don't take away my train to Cannon Street train" cohort don't seem to have made much noise.

Maybe with more working from home, there is less commuting from Hayes line stations to the City, so less resistance to this link being severed.

Of course , there is a housing premium for areas served by a tube line. House prices would increase above the average at a sniff of a tube extension. One to vote "yes" for if you lived at say Eden Park or Clock House. (which are decent enough areas anyway)

Besides the double "H" line rolls of the tongue - "Hayes to Harrow"

Hayes to Harrow would still be quicker on bus route 140. Sorry.

I've noticed this. Feels like they're really trying to build as few stations as possible. I'd personally like to see a station at Bricklayer's Arms, as I feel only two stations on the Old Kent Road is not future-proof with the planned housebuilding, but clearly those who crunch the numbers disagree with armchairs like me!

As Bricklayer's Arms is a significant bus interchange, this would be a good location for one of the new Bakerloo Line stations.

 

[Ianno87]

I've noticed this. Feels like they're really trying to build as few stations as possible. I'd personally like to see a station at Bricklayer's Arms, as I feel only two stations on the Old Kent Road is not future-proof with the planned housebuilding, but clearly those who crunch the numbers disagree with armchairs like me!

Classic trade-off between fulfilling the Old Kent Road "vacuum" but considering journey times for longer journeys.

i.e. large benefit for smallish numberbof people versus smallish benefit for much larger number of people.


I'm in two minds about whether this extension being captive to Lewisham only (a bit like the Jubilee Line to Stratford) makes more sense than through running to Hayes / Beckenham Junction.

 

[rebmcr]

I'm in two minds about whether this extension being captive to Lewisham only (a bit like the Jubilee Line to Stratford) makes more sense than through running to Hayes / Beckenham Junction.

London Bridge - East Croydon would certainly benefit from Bakerloo taking the branch.

 

[Horizon22]

When the consultation was open, I've particularly noticed that the station distances between them are longer than the typical rest of the Bakerloo line, particularly how the route avoids New Cross and St John's stations. If possible, it can repeat history and close the current St John's in favour of a new deep level station. I also wonder how convenient it would be for a foreseeing out-of-station interchange between the sites of Old Kent Road 2 and New Bermondsey - only if either are completed.

The main intention was to connect communities along the Old Kent Road that are very poorly served by rail (both underground and national rail) and rely heavily on buses, hence why there's no connection to those station. The connection at New Cross Gate should be good enough or at Elephant & Castle assuming they make a decent connection to the Thameslink station.

Maybe with more working from home, there is less commuting from Hayes line stations to the City, so less resistance to this link being severed.

The consultation was carried out throughout Autumn / Winter '19 so this wouldn't have been factored in.

 

[Cdd89]

Opening a rapid route from Elephant to Lewisham (and beyond) will be very positive for me, as currently it involves a relatively poorly timed change at Peckham Rye via Thameslink.

As Bricklayer's Arms is a significant bus interchange, this would be a good location for one of the new Bakerloo Line stations.

This has been the subject of incredibly intense local campaigning, and obviously local residents are going to want it but I’m not sure how strong the case is that aside. People can hop on a bus (for which they won’t wait more than a minute, in my experience) and connect at Elephant and Castle or Old Kent Road 1, as is convenient to them. I do think it’s important to keep the stops as few as possible in consideration of any further future extension.

 

[Dave W]

I wonder if the same discussions were being had during the Piccadilly Line extension (maybe not on the internet....!?!?) about the wisdom of binning the stop at St Ann's Road because of the ubiquity of the tram service there.

... God knows it'd make my commute easier, anyway ...

 

[Dr_Paul]

Quite an impressive level of support for going all the way to Hayes. The "don't take away my train to Cannon Street train" cohort don't seem to have made much noise.

That is a surprise, as travelling on the railway to Central London, even with a change at London Bridge if one wanted to go to Charing Cross or on to the Jubilee Line to the West End, would be quicker than going via the Bakerloo Line via Lewisham, Peckham, Elephant, etc. And I'd far rather travel on an EMU than on a tube train, especially for what is quite a lengthy journey. The only advantage I can see is frequency of service.

Interesting that Asylum is being considered as a station name, particularly if the line extends to Hayes, given that Bethlem Royal Hospital (formerly Bedlam) lies close to both Eden Park and West Wickham stations, and one or other could very easily have had the Asylum name attached to them in times past when mental health issues were not treated with the compassion (in theory, anyway) that exists today.

I read somewhere that this hospital actually had a rail link via a branch off the line to Hayes.

 

[Mojo]

That is a surprise, as travelling on the railway to Central London, even with a change at London Bridge if one wanted to go to Charing Cross or on to the Jubilee Line to the West End, would be quicker than going via the Bakerloo Line via Lewisham, Peckham, Elephant, etc. And I'd far rather travel on an EMU than on a tube train, especially for what is quite a lengthy journey. The only advantage I can see is frequency of service.

Not sure if things have changed since October last year, but then it was stated that most journeys from Hayes would actually be quicker on the Bakerloo.

Times quoted then were 33 Min to Waterloo (versus 36 Min to Waterloo (East) on Southeastern), and 35 Min to Charing + (versus 40 Min). No times were stated for customers going to the West End but if serviced by a direct train then customers would potentially save even more as there would be no need to walk or change onto LU.

The only real disadvantages were for people going to The City.

 

[cle]

Are those times via Lewisham rather than direct?

But overall, I agree. New straight tube sections are nippier than the London Bridge and Lewisham NR navigations, plus section to CX.

Plus if headed to Picc/Ox Circus, immediately much quicker, and indeed onward.

Not to mention, total/average journey calculations. Miss a train? No worries. Frequency is freedom after all. There would be new trains soon enough too.

The Beckenham Junction Spur gives this another good purpose, bringing a new interchange and town centre to the tube map, and clears 2 LB paths via East Dulwich to somewhere else - assuming they are not a hindrance to send to a place!

 

[Mojo]

Are those times via Lewisham rather than direct?

I checked the Timetable on the day I posted that and it still takes 36 Min on a direct train to Waterloo (East) and 40 Min to Charing +, so having to change as most trains at the moment are going into Cannon St would take even longer.