I'm also no expert on the system, but as mentioned it is a terrible system so it's not surprising he wants to abolish it. Although it is possible to keep the electoral collage but reform it to make it a bit less unfair. Appointing the electors by some kind of proportional representation instead of winner takes it all would improve the situation a lot, and still let the small states be heard.
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2020 US Presidential Election
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I'm also no expert on the system, but as mentioned it is a terrible system so it's not surprising he wants to abolish it. Although it is possible to keep the electoral collage but reform it to make it a bit less unfair. Appointing the electors by some kind of proportional representation instead of winner takes it all would improve the situation a lot, and still let the small states be heard.
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Wilts Wanderer
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Thank you yes that’s what I meant.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
A collage is a picture made up of lots of random stuff stuck to something. Which may not be what you meant but is somehow appropriate...
Nebraska and Maine do something like what you suggest - they allocate two electors to the statewide winner and one each to the winner in each congressional district. I think Biden is getting one vote from Nebraska this year - possibly the only change to the numbers to be confirmed so far! However even this still has an element of winner takes all, and I think the fairest system would be just to go with the popular vote nationwide. That is after all how most republics elect their presidents (is there any other using indirect election?). In a fair electoral system then if there is a significant grievance in a proportion of the population then some party or other will take it up.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
Only problem with a proportional representation system, is it makes it easier for people like Hitler to gain power, like he did in the Weimar Republic.
birchesgreen
Established Member
You know there have been hundreds of PR elections around the world where a Hitler wasn't elected?
The current system stops lesser populated states be swamped by the highly populated ones. Wyoming for example has a few college votes despite most of the population being live stock. Indeed i believe there are only about 3 humans who live in WY. And they are all called John.
The current system stops lesser populated states be swamped by the highly populated ones. Wyoming for example has a few college votes despite most of the population being live stock. Indeed i believe there are only about 3 humans who live in WY. And they are all called John.
I think that's the most absurd argument against PR I've ever heard
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I remain unconvinced that all 3 Johns in Wyoming should have the same voting power as 11 Californians
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
Its not my personal argument, its just one I have seen touted. I do agree its a bit absurd.
birchesgreen
Established Member
It is a frequently aired criticism. I think that electing extremists is a good thing though as it usually destroys them once they actually have to go some work.
Scotrail314209
Established Member
Joe Biden has won the Wisconsin vote, Trumpet is demanding a recount.
Is it me or is this starting to look slightly good for Biden now?
Is it me or is this starting to look slightly good for Biden now?
birchesgreen
Established Member
It is looking promising, i won't relax until they are fumigating the Oval Office after Trump has been kicked out.
nlogax
Established Member
It's going to be another long night.
Arizona needs to be confirmed - it's currently well placed for Biden and has already been projected by a few media organisations.
Michigan needs to be confirmed - a flip for Biden and he's opening the lead. Trump camp has just launched legal action to stop the count.
Nevada needs to be confirmed - this won't happen until tomorrow or Friday.
Meanwhile Pennsylvania could well be going to Biden as well. I've been watching a 650k gap get smaller and smaller all day and the predictions are for Trump to lose it. Would rather PA wasn't needed by the Biden camp but it would be the cherry on the cake.
The stench in that room by now..likely McDonalds and strong hairspray. Ugh.
Arizona needs to be confirmed - it's currently well placed for Biden and has already been projected by a few media organisations.
Michigan needs to be confirmed - a flip for Biden and he's opening the lead. Trump camp has just launched legal action to stop the count.
Nevada needs to be confirmed - this won't happen until tomorrow or Friday.
Meanwhile Pennsylvania could well be going to Biden as well. I've been watching a 650k gap get smaller and smaller all day and the predictions are for Trump to lose it. Would rather PA wasn't needed by the Biden camp but it would be the cherry on the cake.
The stench in that room by now..likely McDonalds and strong hairspray. Ugh.
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YorkshireBear
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I'm not getting my hopes up!
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
It's still incredibly tight. Of the non-projected states I don't think Biden will win any of those in which Trump currently leads the votes already counted ie Alaska, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Georgia. Yes there are large numbers of postal votes still uncounted in PA but Trump's lead there is substantial (over 400,000). That leaves the states where Biden currently leads: Michigan, Nevada and Arizona. His lead in AZ (93,000) should be enough and while his lead in MI is slender it has gradually increased as more postal votes are added. As most uncounted votes are in Wayne county, which includes the strongly Democrat city of Detroit, Biden should win MI too. That leaves NV where Biden's campaign did not go well. He currently leads by about 7,600 with possibly 190,000 votes still to count. That's really on a knife edge and Biden needs it to reach 271 in the Electoral College. And NV will not be declaring any more numbers before tomorrow. Too soon for any celebrations on either side.
It is better, but it is still first past the post and not proportional.
The German president is indirectly elected by the Bundesversammlung. But to be fair, the president has very little power compared to the chancellor.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Regardless of what happens we have to acknowledge that the divisive policy agenda espoused by Trump has not been rejected by the American public. In fact it has been supported in vast numbers. My view is that the simple solutions he offers to complex situations allows freedom for people of limited economic, intellectual and educational performance to blame "others" for the problems they face in life. They are empowered to forget that their choices in life have led to the situations they face and instead line up to regurgitate transparent lies that support that outlook.
We are also now seeing an overt attack on democracy and democratic institutions that, if successful, will lead us to a very scary place. Trump is trying to suggest "they" are stealing the election when actually it is him trying to subvert the democratic process and his fans lap it up and shout and scream that they are being robbed. The lack of critical thought is worrying in the extreme.
We are also now seeing an overt attack on democracy and democratic institutions that, if successful, will lead us to a very scary place. Trump is trying to suggest "they" are stealing the election when actually it is him trying to subvert the democratic process and his fans lap it up and shout and scream that they are being robbed. The lack of critical thought is worrying in the extreme.
Very well summed up.
There's a brilliant article on medium about this - goes back to the early 2010's and started with the Hungarian election win of 2014. Dumb down complex situations, blame individuals or organisations and sew division. It's delivered a lot of success in the last 6/7 years and helped divide society without solving any of its issues, just exasperating them.
Quality political journalism. You can have Peston’s Job.
daodao
Established Member
I agree, but expect Biden to hold on in Nevada, giving him the narrowest of wins (270-268).
Meanwhile, the odds have been swinging about a lot this afternoon / evening.
Trump was as long as 5/1 at 1600, all the way into 5/2 at 1900, and now 6/1. And well over £100m has been bet on the result since yesterday! Betfair are having a VERY good day.
Trump was as long as 5/1 at 1600, all the way into 5/2 at 1900, and now 6/1. And well over £100m has been bet on the result since yesterday! Betfair are having a VERY good day.
He has won it.
By my maths, if Biden holds Nevada, Arizona and Wisconsin, he has 270 exactly.
Whilst true to some extent, I'm not sure it's "67 million" true. For every person convinced by his simple solutions, there are those who are smart and well educated but willing to turn a blind eye to the last 4 years and all of DJTs actions.
To be honest, I'm not sure what's worse
Yep, and then the legal fun starts. If he gets Pennsylvania and/or Georgia too, then whilst there will still be legal fun, it will have to be on a broader front, with less chance of success.
I'm taking it as a positive sign that he appears to be having a minor meltdown:
DarloRich
Veteran Member
There are plenty at the top end either getting rich or turning a blind eye and enjoying all the power, access or influence they can get hold of and ,of course, there will be people who will vote for whomever the Republicans put up but many of the voters we hear from are not at the top end. They are very much at the bottom end and they seem unable or unwilling to sift, sort and grade the information they are given. They just regurgitate it and ask for more lies.
I was thinking more about the people in the middle - not the super rich who are actually benefitting from the Trump presidency, nor the uneducated red-hat wearing fantasists, but the reasonably well off middle class (who being rather plain we don't tend to hear about!) Like you say, some of them will be of the "anyone with the red rosette" variety, but I do find it alarming that they they've turned out in increasing numbers to vote for Trump rather than abstaining or spoiling the ballot (or equivalent). Then again, given how tribalistic the US seems, perhaps it's not a surprise, caging children is fine so long as it's my guy doing it, etc.
Either way, this whole affair continues to do no wonders for my view of the US as a third world country propped up a few states giving it a veneer of first world behaviour
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I think the detailed demographics on the voting situation will be interesting! Education and exposure must play a big part.
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