2023 Israel - Hamas war

[GRALISTAIR]

I have a horrible feeling it is not going to end well - for anyone. I pray I am wrong.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

Summary

1. Dozens of Israelis are believed to have been captured by Palestinian militants in an unprecedented assault into Israeli territory
2. "We are at war," says Israel's PM Benjamin Netanyahu
3. At least 150 people in Israel have been killed, and more than 1,100 are being treated in hospitals, according to emergency services
4. More than 230 people have been killed in retaliatory Israeli strikes in the Gaza strip, officials there say
5. Tel Aviv and other central cities have been hit by a new barrage of rockets launched on Saturday evening
6. Hamas commander Mohammed Deif says the Palestinian militant group had "decided to say enough is enough"

 

[yorkie]

For as long as Israel does not allow Palestine to exist as an independent state, there will be no end.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

The whole thing is a not ending well for anyone. I fear that any chance of a reasonable outcome for both Israelis and Palestinians went out if the window a long time ago.

 

[brad465]

For as long as Isreal does not allow Palestine to exist as an independent state, there will be no end.

What I've never worked out, is what is in it for many Governments and media outlets to back the Israeli regime thick and thin, while denouncing anyone who criticises the regime's behaviour towards Palestinians as anti-Semitic? While Hamas are not helping the Palestinian cause with this, none of this would be happening were it not for how the Israeli regime has behaved towards them for decades, and the international community siding with every Israeli regime throughout that, rather than trying to allow the two states to coexist peacefully, is as complicit.

 

[alex397]

The deep rooted issues with Israel and Palestine seem very complicated to me and I don’t think I completely understand it all. But I do think people should calm down a bit and try and understand both sides and not be so extreme.
I should add I really do not support the Israeli government though, and many of their actions have been extreme to say the least. Palestine needs to be made it’s own country, and hopefully that may help to calm things down a bit - but I can see how complicated that process might be!

With some debates I see though, it does often seem to get rather anti-Semitic (often veering into conspiracy theory territory with strange people going on about ‘Jews controlling the world’ and other such nonsense) and there are many who don’t want the country to exist at all. The country should exist, and the people who live there definitely should exist, but it’s the government that needs to change.
Even in Europe, synagogues have security to help prevent hate crimes. Israel is the only Jewish state, and Jews are often not welcome at all in other Middle Eastern states. I can see why the Israeli government might be a bit….touchy, but I don’t agree with their actions.

I really hope in my lifetime I get to see some peace in that region. Hopefully Palestine will get more autonomy or even better be it’s own independent state.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Two state solution would give Palestinians some dignity. Surely has to be a good option.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Oh god help us all. I hope the whole thing doesn’t turn into a repeat Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Just hope the beginning of World War 3 isn’t around the corner…

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Oh god help us all. I hope the whole thing doesn’t turn into a repeat Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Just hope the beginning of World War 3 isn’t around the corner…

Exactly my concern. Iranians possibly implicated.

 

[JamesT]

What I've never worked out, is what is in it for many Governments and media outlets to back the Israeli regime thick and thin, while denouncing anyone who criticises the regime's behaviour towards Palestinians as anti-Semitic? While Hamas are not helping the Palestinian cause with this, none of this would be happening were it not for how the Israeli regime has behaved towards them for decades, and the international community siding with every Israeli regime throughout that, rather than trying to allow the two states to coexist peacefully, is as complicit.

I think you overestimate international support for Israel. UN resolutions criticising Israel are not uncommon, though often vetoed by the US. The reason criticism of Israel is denounced as anti-Semitic is the double standards. Other countries in the region don’t get the same level of opprobrium despite similar actions.
It’s understandable that Israel sometimes overdo the security, how many wars were launched against them in the past to try and wipe them out?

Two state solution would give Palestinians some dignity. Surely has to be a good option.

You’d think so, but neither side seem willing to accept it. Only been 85 years since it was first proposed…

 

[Carlisle]

Two state solution would give Palestinians some dignity. Surely has to be a good option.

Indeed, I’d guess most agree with that, but negotiating with the likes of Hamas unless they’d declared a genuine ceasefire & willingness to entertain some compromises surely isn’t the way to go which is probably why many Governments are expressing support for Israel.

 

[GS250]

Huge intelligence failure by Israel here though. I suspect though that reprisals will be pretty fierce.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Two state solution would give Palestinians some dignity. Surely has to be a good option.

Sadly, there's no chance of that with Hamas vowed to the complete destruction and removal of the Israeli nation.
They have a total grip on Gaza, leaving no moderate voices of any significance or influence
Hezbollah and other militant islamist groups have the same aim.
They have no desire for compromise or peace.
It's a hopeless situation.

Exactly my concern. Iranians possibly implicated.

Possibly?
Iran is heavily involved, with its open call for surrounding Israel with a "ring of fire, an eventual invasion and the destruction of Israel and its people.
They are the biggest backers and suppliers of money, training and arms to these groups.
Reports are saying that they've supplied tens of thousands of rockets and missiles, not just for intermittent attacks, but to build up for a major assault.
They launched today's attack with a reported 2,500 missiles and rockets being fired. Hamas claim 5,000.
An earlier report said their new tactic, is to launch hundreds or thousands of rockets to overload the Israeli air defences, allowing GPS precision guided missiles to get through and hit important targets.

It hasn't been ascertained yet, how many Hamas "fighters" crossed over the border this morning at various points.
They're speculating it was in the hundreds and some pockets are thought to be still there.

What do Israel have to do to defend themselves against this?
It isn't going to end well.


.

 

[GS250]

Not will it end well for any European Country that may attempt to assist Israel in some form. Terrorist reprisals would be certain at a level never seen before.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Forget Ukraine- Russia - this has the potential to flare up worse.

 

[zero]

Forget Ukraine- Russia

The media appears to have done so already

 

[GusB]

Sadly, there's no chance of that with Hamas vowed to the complete destruction and removal of the Israeli nation.
They have a total grip on Gaza, leaving no moderate voices of any significance or influence
Hezbollah and other militant islamist groups have the same aim.
They have no desire for compromise or peace.
It's a hopeless situation.

Sadly, there's no chance of peace as long as the Israeli state continues to push the Palestinians off their land and treats them like second-class citizens.

I don't agree with the actions of Hamas but, let's be honest, the Israelis don't come out of this smelling of roses, either.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, I’d guess most agree with that, but negotiating with the likes of Hamas unless they’d declared a genuine ceasefire & willingness to entertain some compromises surely isn’t the way to go which is probably why many Governments are expressing support for Israel.

You do realise many more Palestinians have died in the conflict than Israelis?

It is much more newsworthy when Israelis due because it is less common (and perhaps for other reasons too).

Which are the "many" Governments who "support Israel" and is this list more numerous than the other way round?

Whenever Israelis die, Israel ensures many more Palestinians die in retaliation.

Sadly, there's no chance of peace as long as the Israeli state continues to push the Palestinians off their land and treats them like second-class citizens.

I don't agree with the actions of Hamas but, let's be honest, the Israelis don't come out of this smelling of roses, either.

Indeed

What do Israel have to do to defend themselves against this?
It isn't going to end well.

They do not simply defend; they retaliate.

From the link above:

• The Israeli army has asked residents of several areas of the Gaza Strip to flee their homes in preparation for retaliatory strikes against Hamas

Clearly there is no end in sight.

Israel seems keen to deny the existence of a Palestinian state and continue to occupy lands against UN resolutions; imagine if this was done against your people, how would you feel?

Edit: the following article is worth a read:

The 11 biggest myths about Israel-Palestine

Editor’s note, October 9, 2023: This story was last updated on May 19, 2015, and some information in it may no longer be accurate. For all of Vox’s latest coverage on Israel and Palestine, see our...

www.vox.com

Once you see the truth about a few widely held misconceptions, the conflict starts to make a lot more sense.

Myth #1: The conflict is too complex to possibly understand
This is, in many ways, the Israel-Palestine misconception from which all other Israel-Palestine misconceptions flow: that the conflict is an impossibly complicated mess so far beyond human untangling or comprehension that we should not really try....

 

[adc82140]

Oh god help us all. I hope the whole thing doesn’t turn into a repeat Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Just hope the beginning of World War 3 isn’t around the corner…

How so? Both Russia and the US have major interests with the Israeli government. Russia also has interests in Iran (not least because any Iranian weapons used in Israel are not able to be used in Ukraine). It's in Putin's interests for this to come to a rapid end. The US will not be militarily propping up Israel, they are perfectly capable of running their own war. Not denying this could turn in to a nasty regional war though, drawing in Iran and Lebanon.

 

[Butts]

Not will it end well for any European Country that may attempt to assist Israel in some form. Terrorist reprisals would be certain at a level never seen before.

Nothing like a bit of hyperbole on a Sunday Morning.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the "2 State" issues it is not advisable to take out 300 Israelis.

Retribution will be swift and merciless mainly killing and maiming the people Hamas claim to represent- not their paymasters in Iran.

The combined "might" of Egypt , Syria and Jordan were unable to defeat Israel, so a rag bag outfit like Hamas have no chance.

 

[Falcon1200]

For as long as Isreal does not allow Palestine to exist as an independent state, there will be no end.

Nor for as long as Hamas is committed to the utter destruction of Israel.

Sadly, there's no chance of peace as long as the Israeli state continues to push the Palestinians off their land and treats them like second-class citizens.

No, and I agree there is wrong on both sides; Of course Palestinians deserve to live in peace and prosperity, but that cannot be achieved by genocide as Hamas desire.

The hatred and mistrust on both sides, developed and refined over decades, makes me despair of there ever being peace in the Middle East.

 

[yorkie]

Nor for as long as Hamas is committed to the utter destruction of Israel.



No, and I agree there is wrong on both sides; Of course Palestinians deserve to live in peace and prosperity, but that cannot be achieved by genocide as Hamas desire.

The hatred and mistrust on both sides, developed and refined over decades, makes me despair of there ever being peace in the Middle East.

There are many more deaths on the Palestinian side than Israelis.

Occupying lands and refusing to allow the existence of a Palestinian state is obviously going to encourage extremism.

If you had been evicted from your home and your lands were occupied, would you just accept it?

 

[BananaRepublic]

Sadly, there's no chance of peace as long as the Israeli state continues to push the Palestinians off their land and treats them like second-class citizens.

I don't agree with the actions of Hamas but, let's be honest, the Israelis don't come out of this smelling of roses, either.

I agree that Israel has made a rod for its own back over the last 30 years or so, particularly with the settlement issues.
They could have saved themselves an awful lot of trouble, if they had made a concerted effort to accommodate and try and win the trust of the Palestinians many decades ago, but that would have been at a cost they didn’t want contemplate.
Their actions since, have only made the situation worst, but the constant and increasing terrorist threat has only entrenched their position even more.

You do realise many more Palestinians have died in the conflict than Israelis?

Whose fault is that?
Israel may have treated the Palestinians very badly, but those Palestinian deaths are largely as a direct, or indirect result of the actions of Hamas, Hezbullah and other Islamist extremist groups, aided and abetted by malign external actors.

This weekend’s actions could result in hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian deaths, likely mostly civilian, all of which be as a direct result of Hamas’s action.

Nor for as long as Hamas is committed to the utter destruction of Israel……


………Of course Palestinians deserve to live in peace and prosperity, but that cannot be achieved by genocide as Hamas desire.

The hatred and mistrust on both sides, developed and refined over decades, makes me despair of there ever being peace in the Middle East.

Correct.



.

 

[Noddy]

Israel seems keen to deny the existence of a Palestinian state and continue to occupy lands against UN resolutions; imagine if this was done against your people, how would you feel?

Edit: the following article is worth a read:

The 11 biggest myths about Israel-Palestine

Editor’s note, October 9, 2023: This story was last updated on May 19, 2015, and some information in it may no longer be accurate. For all of Vox’s latest coverage on Israel and Palestine, see our...

www.vox.com

This is a good article although Myth 10, to some degree, contradicts your point.

Sadly, there's no chance of peace as long as the Israeli state continues to push the Palestinians off their land and treats them like second-class citizens.

For me, I can’t see a two state solution happening while the Palestinians are so geopolitically divided between Fatah and Hamas.

 

[yorkie]

This is a good article although Myth 10, to some degree, contradicts your point...

It does not.

The status quo of the Israel-Palestine conflict is bad for everyone, but it is especially bad for Palestinians, who are under a suffocating blockade in Gaza and military occupation in the West Bank. They do not have a state or full rights, while Israelis have both. And the longer the conflict drags on, the tougher it will be to change that....

Whose fault is that?
Israel may have treated the Palestinians very badly....

That is a huge understatement; they have occupied their lands, killed many many Palestinians (far more Palestinians have died than Isrelis) and deny the existence of a Palestinian state. There is no "may" about it, and even "very badly" doesn't begin to describe it.

As for whose "fault" it is, that is a complex matter, but it is not the fault of Palestinians, who were forcibly removed from homes and denied their own state.

but those Palestinian deaths are largely as a direct, or indirect result of the actions of Hamas, Hezbullah and other Islamist extremist groups, aided and abetted by malign external actors.

Retaliation by Israel is vastly disrporportionate; you appear to be justifying these retaliations, is that the case?

This weekend’s actions could result in hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian deaths, likely mostly civilian, all of which be as a direct result of Hamas’s action.

Nonsense. It is a direct result of Isreal's action, which is a vastly disprportionate and an indirect result of Hamas' actions.

 

[Noddy]

It does not.

It’s also says this:

So you can see why some might think that all Israelis want this to happen and want the conflict to drag on forever or to end it by permanently expelling or subjugating Palestinians — but when you look at how Israel makes decisions, and what Israeli voters want, it becomes pretty clear that this is not the case.

As is true of any country, especially a parliamentary democracy, Israel's actions are less the result of a single calculated strategy than they are about messy internal politics, short-term thinking, and strategic drift. Take, as a micro example, Israel's approach to Gaza since Hamas took over in 2006. Israel has invaded or launched extended bombing campaigns in Gaza every few years; this costs many Israeli lives, in addition to the much higher Palestinian death toll, and it never actually solves the underlying problems. Clearly Israel does not have long-term strategy here at all, much less a nefarious secret plan. That lack of a strategy is bad and helps perpetuate the cycle of violence, but it is a cycle that's painful for Israelis, as well.

 

[yorkie]

It’s also says this:

And what did I say that contradicts any of that?

 

[Falcon1200]

Occupying lands and refusing to allow the existence of a Palestinian state is obviously going to encourage extremism.

I agree; But that extremism is bound to lead to a response, especially when those being attacked are surrounded by hostile peoples devoted, in the past and still now, to the annihilation of their country, and through being in that situation Israel has the means to carry out devastating reprisals. Every death is a tragedy, no matter on what side, but I fear neither is anywhere near even considering any form of compromise or agreement.

If you had been evicted from your home and your lands were occupied, would you just accept it?

No; The Palestinians most certainly have justifiable demands, but firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets is not going to achieve them.

 

[nw1]

This is a complex issue and it's not wise to take "sides", IMO.

However what I will say is that the actions of Hamas in kidnapping innocent civilians is disgusting and such a group deserve zero sympathy for such an act.
What did those innocent civilians do to deserve that? Absolutely nothing. Monstrous acts like that do precisely nothing to further your cause, in a similar way to the IRA here. While the idea of a united Ireland may be a good one, using violence to achieve that aim isn't.

Non-violent protest and action should be the Palestinians' approach. Protests, marches, general strikes, and the like.

I'm not taking sides on the conflict as a whole, just condemning Hamas' actions. FWIW I've always considered Netanyahu a militant himself: things seemed to be much better before he took power and some of the previous Israeli PMs (Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin, IIRC?) made some significant progress.

I'm sure things would be a lot better if neither Netanyahu nor Hamas were involved, and instead we had less militant leaders on both sides prepared to work peacefully towards compromise.

 

[Noddy]

And what did I say that contradicts any of that?

This:

Israel seems keen to deny the existence of a Palestinian state

As Myth 10 points out:

So you can see why some might think that all Israelis want this to happen and want the conflict to drag on forever or to end it by permanently expelling or subjugating Palestinians — but when you look at how Israel makes decisions, and what Israeli voters want, it becomes pretty clear that this is not the case.

As is true of any country, especially a parliamentary democracy, Israel's actions are less the result of a single calculated strategy than they are about messy internal politics, short-term thinking, and strategic drift. Take, as a micro example, Israel's approach to Gaza since Hamas took over in 2006. Israel has invaded or launched extended bombing campaigns in Gaza every few years; this costs many Israeli lives, in addition to the much higher Palestinian death toll, and it never actually solves the underlying problems. Clearly Israel does not have long-term strategy here at all, much less a nefarious secret plan. That lack of a strategy is bad and helps perpetuate the cycle of violence, but it is a cycle that's painful for Israelis, as well.

I’m not saying I support all the stuff that Isreal has done - it’s done and continues to do many awful things. But saying Isreal simply wants to deny the existence of a Palestinian state is an oversimplification of the situation.

 

[yorkie]

I agree; But that extremism is bound to lead to a response, especially when those being attacked are surrounded by hostile peoples devoted, in the past and still now, to the annihilation of their country, and through being in that situation Israel has the means to carry out devastating reprisals. Every death is a tragedy, no matter on what side, but I fear neither is anywhere near even considering any form of compromise or agreement.

True that extremisms on either side will lead to a response, but Isreal are responsible for many more deaths and this should be subject to more scrutiny.

It is not a level playing field by any means.

No; The Palestinians most certainly have justifiable demands, but firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets is not going to achieve them.

Absolutely, but the number of Palestinian civilians suffering is vastly higher than Isrelis, so why single one side out like this?

This is a complex issue and it's not wise to take "sides", IMO.

However what I will say is that the actions of Hamas in kidnapping innocent civilians is disgusting and such a group deserve zero sympathy.
What did those innocent civilians do to deserve that? Absolutely nothing.

True but many more Palestinian civilians have suffered over the course of the conflict than Isrelis; however it is deemed to be far more newsworthy when Isrelis suffer compared to Palestinians suffering.

This:


As Myth 10 points out

Not so. Myth 10 states 'Myth #10: Israel is explicitly seeking Palestinians' total destruction', nowhere have I suggested that!

I’m not saying I support all the stuff that Isreal has done - it’s done and continues to do many awful things. But saying Isreal simply wants to deny the existence of a Palestinian state is an oversimplification of the situation.

It is part of the situation; no-one is saying it is simply down to that. But the root cause of the longstanding conflict is the eviction of Palestinians, the occupying of their lands, the denial of their state and general mistreatment of them as second class citizens. Yes it is more complex than that, but if none of that is addressed, the problem is never going to go away.

Every death, whether of Israelis or Palestinian civilians, simply creates more hatred and anger and I cannot see any hope for a peaceful solution, acceptable to all sides, any time soon.

This is very true, and when that number is far higher (as it has been, notwithstanding the last few days, for many years) on one side than the other, the anger is going to be disproportional too.