2023 Israel - Hamas war

[ainsworth74]

Im not trying to excuse Russia.
Im excusing poor countries that havent got the resources to start boycotting Russia over it.

Fair doos. Perhaps in another world this is something, helping such countries to find sources other than Russian for their basic staples, that could have formed part of the Western response to Russian aggression but we are where we are sadly.

 

[nw1]

One man's 'liberation struggle' is another man's 'terrorism'. Depends which side you are on.....

Apartheid was, of course, a thing. And not a small thing.
I'd hope no-one today is seriously on the side of the apartheid lot...

Most third world countries dont have the spare money to be picky with wether they want to trade with one of the biggest food exporters. Hence why they tend "to play both sides". Cheap Russian grain is what keeps hundreds of millions alive

Agree with @ainsworth74 here. Perhaps if Putin hadn't invaded Ukraine they could get Ukrainian grain instead.

 

[RT4038]

Agree with @ainsworth74 here. Perhaps if Putin hadn't invaded Ukraine they could get Ukrainian grain instead.

I don't know how much grain South Africa imports? It was pretty self sufficient in that commodity pre 1995, and if there was any shortage it could generally rely on its northern neighbour to help out.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I don't know how much grain South Africa imports? It was pretty self sufficient in that commodity pre 1995, and if there was any shortage it could generally rely on its northern neighbour to help out.

Yes, at one time, Zimbabwe was the grain capital of the African continent.

 

[JamesT]

Yes, at one time, Zimbabwe was the grain capital of the African continent.

Though Mugabe made things much worse, apparently that was never really true: https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/blog/analysis-was-zimbabwe-ever-breadbasket-africa

A country should be able to meet its staple food consumption needs and simultaneously command a notable share in exports of the same food commodity to be considered a “food-basket”.

Looking at the production data of the key staple foods maize and wheat, Zimbabwe’s production of these commodities has never surpassed a 10% share on the continent over the past 55 years.

 

[Silenos]

It’s the only way to get through to some people, sadly.

Mr Putin would agree with you wholeheartedly

Liberation struggle in quotes, any reason?

But the problem with South Africa in any case is not support for Palestine (which many of us would go along with) but continuing to trade with Russia. It's the latter that it needs to explain.

Much of the Global South is deeply suspicious of Western narratives, based on their own experiences of colonialist and post-colonialist intervention, and is thus inclined to give a sympathetic ear to Russian diplomacy when it paints a picture of a poor, proud country valiantly defending itself against Western meddling and hypocrisy. SA is far from being the only one - look at India.

 

[RT4038]

Though Mugabe made things much worse, apparently that was never really true: https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/blog/analysis-was-zimbabwe-ever-breadbasket-africa

Either way neither Rhodesia, nor South Africa prior to 1995, imported any grain from Russia/Ukraine. They may well need to to do so now?

Much of the Global South is deeply suspicious of Western narratives, based on their own experiences of colonialist and post-colonialist intervention, and is thus inclined to give a sympathetic ear to Russian diplomacy when it paints a picture of a poor, proud country valiantly defending itself against Western meddling and hypocrisy. SA is far from being the only one - look at India.

Quite, coupled to historic help for 'liberation' movements now expected to work the opposite way.

 

[nw1]

Mr Putin would agree with you wholeheartedly


Much of the Global South is deeply suspicious of Western narratives, based on their own experiences of colonialist and post-colonialist intervention, and is thus inclined to give a sympathetic ear to Russian diplomacy when it paints a picture of a poor, proud country valiantly defending itself against Western meddling and hypocrisy. SA is far from being the only one - look at India.

The irony though is that Russia is the very definition of a colonial and imperial power who seem to believe they have a moral right to own most of eastern Europe and northern Asia.

 

[DustyBin]

Mr Putin would agree with you wholeheartedly

Surely you’re not suggesting Ukrainians are terrorists?

 

[RT4038]

There are at least two sides (and often many more) to every conflict and it is rarely that clear cut as to who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'. The Ukraine/Russia war is no exception. One man's 'freedom fighter' is another man's 'terrorist' and it is always worth bearing this in mind, especially in conflicts that we are not closely involved with, and therefore do not understand, every nuance.

 

[hst43102]

There are at least two sides (and often many more) to every conflict and it is rarely that clear cut as to who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'. The Ukraine/Russia war is no exception. One man's 'freedom fighter' is another man's 'terrorist' and it is always worth bearing this in mind, especially in conflicts that we are not closely involved with, and therefore do not understand, every nuance.

I'd say the Ukraine war is the closest we have seen to a clear-cut right/wrong conflict since WW2.

 

[DustyBin]

There are at least two sides (and often many more) to every conflict and it is rarely that clear cut as to who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'. The Ukraine/Russia war is no exception. One man's 'freedom fighter' is another man's 'terrorist' and it is always worth bearing this in mind, especially in conflicts that we are not closely involved with, and therefore do not understand, every nuance.

Generally I agree. In regard to the Russian invasion of Ukraine however it's about as clear cut as it gets, as @hst43102 has stated above.

 

[RT4038]

I'd say the Ukraine war is the closest we have seen to a clear-cut right/wrong conflict since WW2.

I am not so sure about that, particularly in respect to the treatment/status of the sizeable Russian speaking minority in Ukraine. Not that I condone the attack, destruction etc, but I don't think it is quite so clear cut as the Ukrainians would portray, or that us outsiders would completely understand.

 

[Silenos]

The irony though is that Russia is the very definition of a colonial and imperial power who seem to believe they have a moral right to own most of eastern Europe and northern Asia.

Indeed, its history is nearly as imperialistic as our own. But because it was rather less effective at it than we were, fewer countries (and none in Africa, Oceania, South America or South-east Asia), have direct experience of its imperialism. Thus those countries are inclined to say ‘pot, meet kettle’ when we preach about it.

 

[DustyBin]

I am not so sure about that, particularly in respect to the treatment/status of the sizeable Russian speaking minority in Ukraine. Not that I condone the attack, destruction etc, but I don't think it is quite so clear cut as the Ukrainians would portray, or that us outsiders would completely understand.

I've no doubt some Ukrainian nationalists took/wanted to take derussification too far, but I'm not aware of widespread oppression of the Russian speaking population (I'm happy to consider evidence to the contrary however). Whatever the issues, I'm fairly certain that the majority didn't want to be "rescued" by Putin, who's had no hesitation in sending them to their deaths on the front lines....

 

[Silenos]

Surely you’re not suggesting Ukrainians are terrorists?

Many ordinary Russians will tell you that they are. That’s the problem with the ‘some people don’t understand any language but force’ argument - not everyone agrees on who ‘some people’ are and one day you might be someone’s ’some people’.

But in any case, Putin didn’t develop his tactics in Ukraine - the Chechens and the Syrians can tell you all about Russian bombardment and brutality.

 

[DustyBin]

Many ordinary Russians will tell you that they are.

How many is many, and have they been propagandized?

Genuine questions, although I think we know the answer to the second one!

That’s the problem with the ‘some people don’t understand any language but force’ argument - not everyone agrees on who ‘some people’ are and one day you might be someone’s ’some people’.

We tried asking the Houthis to cease their attacks and they refused; they chose the force option. If I were to join a group that carried out terror attacks against civilian shipping and refused to stop, I'm sure I would become "some people" as you say. Not engaging in such actions is generally sufficient to avoid becoming "some people" to the right-minded majority, however.

But in any case, Putin didn’t develop his tactics in Ukraine - the Chechens and the Syrians can tell you all about Russian bombardment and brutality.

Indeed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've no doubt some Ukrainian nationalists took/wanted to take derussification too far, but I'm not aware of widespread oppression of the Russian speaking population (I'm happy to consider evidence to the contrary however). Whatever the issues, I'm fairly certain that the majority didn't want to be "rescued" by Putin, who's had no hesitation in sending them to their deaths on the front lines....

Nor am I, at least up until the invasion happened. Russian and Ukrainian languages are largely co-intelligible and those Ukrainians whose first language is Russian includes a certain Volodomir Zelensky.

Back to the topic at hand, I would suggest that South Africa should concentrate on solving their own domestic problems (crime, blackouts, corruption to name a few) rather than posturing on the world stage. Speaking of South Africa's past, I'd also argue that anyone claiming that Israel is an "Apartheid state" doesn't know what they're talking about. I'm pretty sure that there were no black members of the South African Parliament during the Apartheid era, whereas there are several Arab members of the Knesset.

Israel is far from perfect, sure... but if I had to choose a country in that part of the world to live in, Israel would win hands down. I know this won't be a popular opinion based on the previous posts- I would hope that some diversity of opinion might at least be tolerated.

 

[RT4038]

I've no doubt some Ukrainian nationalists took/wanted to take derussification too far, but I'm not aware of widespread oppression of the Russian speaking population (I'm happy to consider evidence to the contrary however).

This is precisely why I keep an open mind on this conflict. What is 'widespread oppression'? Do those people feel , believe that they are or maybe discriminated against compared to ethnic Ukrainians (in for instance opportunities, civil service jobs, government contracts etc) ? You may not think it is oppression, but they may well do. ( a parallel would be, for instance: Do you think there is widespread oppression against white people in South Africa, compared to whether poor white South Africans think there is? )

Nor am I, at least up until the invasion happened. Russian and Ukrainian languages are largely co-intelligible and those Ukrainians whose first language is Russian includes a certain Volodomir Zelensky.

That might seem no big deal to you, because it doesn't affect you, but how do those it actually affects feel? I'll guess a bit differently. Maybe the Russian language speakers think their President has sold them down the river, a not uncommon thought towards politicians?

Speaking of South Africa's past, I'd also argue that anyone claiming that Israel is an "Apartheid state" doesn't know what they're talking about. I'm pretty sure that there were no black members of the South African Parliament during the Apartheid era, whereas there are several Arab members of the Knesset.

There is effectively segregation in various areas of life, and the several Arab members of the Knesset are always in a small minority and therefore wield little influence on matters of weight. I'm not necessarily suggesting that this wrong, as the history in this part of world is not that of Western Europe, but their are parallels.

Israel is far from perfect, sure... but if I had to choose a country in that part of the world to live in, Israel would win hands down. I know this won't be a popular opinion based on the previous posts- I would hope that some diversity of opinion might at least be tolerated.

Maybe less so if you are of Arabic ethnicity?

 

[eldomtom2]

I'm pretty sure that there were no black members of the South African Parliament during the Apartheid era, whereas there are several Arab members of the Knesset.

In the latter days of Apartheid there were "Coloured" and Indian parliaments...

 

[Silenos]

How many is many, and have they been propagandized?

Or have you?

With regard to the numbers it is notoriously difficult to get a Russian’s true opinion - this is after all a country that has a word meaning ‘official truth’ (правда) as distinguished from ‘real truth’ (истина). However, there have been surveys suggesting over 50% support for the war in Ukraine (see https://www.ft.com/content/8a2ca6bc-72e9-4cc1-890b-7b3b0688d3cc).

For the avoidance of doubt, I would personally support supplying Ukraine with the weapons they need to defeat Russia, and doing so promptly. But Putin seems to have calculated (correctly) that Western media interest will be fickle (certainly outside those countries with recent experience of Russian domination, and even there we have the case of Hungary). I suspect he thinks the appetite for any economic and political sacrifices on the part of Western electors will fade along with the fading coverage.

But the idea that you can bomb people into thinking and acting correctly (i.e. in the way you’d like them to think and act) is dubious, to my mind. Netanyahu thinks he can bomb his way to total victory in Gaza within months. I have my doubts that this is, to use an unfortunate term, the Final Solution. Similarly, Saudi Arabia has been bombing the Houthis (with considerably more ferocity than the US/UK) for some time, but has clearly not been effective in degrading their ability to attack shipping.

This is precisely why I keep an open mind on this conflict. What is 'widespread oppression'? Do those people feel , believe that they are or maybe discriminated against compared to ethnic Ukrainians (in for instance opportunities, civil service jobs, government contracts etc) ? You may not think it is oppression, but they may well do. ( a parallel would be, for instance: Do you think there is widespread oppression against white people in South Africa, compared to whether poor white South Africans think there is?

A better comparison might be poor Unionists in Northern Ireland. There are a lot of the Russian-speaking minority who regret the loss of their former pre-eminence.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Maybe less so if you are of Arabic ethnicity?

No, I'd still choose Israel. For all its flaws it is still the most liberal nation in the Middle East.

and the several Arab members of the Knesset are always in a small minority and therefore wield little influence on matters of weight.

There are always going to be minorities of a sort in a parliamentary democracy, it's the nature of the beast. Not necessarily ethnic or religious minorities, most are ideological minorities- but they still have the constitutional right to stand for election, and to take their seats if elected. They also sit in the same parliament and their vote in that parliament has the same weight as the vote of any other member. Unlike the example below:

In the latter days of Apartheid there were "Coloured" and Indian parliaments...

That's not remotely the same thing though, is it? If Israel decided to set up a parallel Arab Knesset, that actually would be a form of Apartheid. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[eldomtom2]

That's not remotely the same thing though, is it? If Israel decided to set up a parallel Arab Knesset, that actually would be a form of Apartheid. Thanks for proving my point.

The point is that apartheid regimes can in fact include members of ethnic minorities in their parliaments while still excluding other ethnic minorities - in this case, the Palestinians.

 

[hst43102]

This is precisely why I keep an open mind on this conflict. What is 'widespread oppression'? Do those people feel , believe that they are or maybe discriminated against compared to ethnic Ukrainians (in for instance opportunities, civil service jobs, government contracts etc) ? You may not think it is oppression, but they may well do. ( a parallel would be, for instance: Do you think there is widespread oppression against white people in South Africa, compared to whether poor white South Africans think there is? )

Russian-speaking Ukrainians have been overwhelmingly in support of the Ukrainian government after Russia invaded - after all, Putin's claims of invading to protect Russian speakers from Nazis somewhat falls flat when the president of Ukraine is.....a Russian-speaking Jew.

That might seem no big deal to you, because it doesn't affect you, but how do those it actually affects feel? I'll guess a bit differently. Maybe the Russian language speakers think their President has sold them down the river, a not uncommon thought towards politicians?

I'd encourage you to read a few articles about the effect of the war on Russian speaking Ukrainians...

There is effectively segregation in various areas of life, and the several Arab members of the Knesset are always in a small minority and therefore wield little influence on matters of weight. I'm not necessarily suggesting that this wrong, as the history in this part of world is not that of Western Europe, but their are parallels.

10 of the Knesset members are Arab out of a total of 120 - it's not a large minority by any means but is still relatively significant. Claims that Israel is an apartheid state are completely false - Arab Israelis share the same rights as other citizens.

Maybe less so if you are of Arabic ethnicity?

See above. Furthermore Israel is placed much higher on the human rights index than their neighbouring countries, due to more religious freedom, more free speech and political freedom, and importantly rights for LGBT folk.

The point is that apartheid regimes can in fact include members of ethnic minorities in their parliaments while still excluding other ethnic minorities - in this case, the Palestinians.

Are Arab Israelis counted as Palestinians or not? If they are, it would be difficult to claim that the Israeli parliament excludes them as a minority.

But the idea that you can bomb people into thinking and acting correctly (i.e. in the way you’d like them to think and act) is dubious, to my mind. Netanyahu thinks he can bomb his way to total victory in Gaza within months. I have my doubts that this is, to use an unfortunate term, the Final Solution. Similarly, Saudi Arabia has been bombing the Houthis (with considerably more ferocity than the US/UK) for some time, but has clearly not been effective in degrading their ability to attack shipping.

Agreed, the continual bombing and lack of purpose in Gaza will not lead to an end of the war, if anything it will increase support for Islamist terrorism in the region.

 

[eldomtom2]

Are Arab Israelis counted as Palestinians or not? If they are, it would be difficult to claim that the Israeli parliament excludes them as a minority.

"It's okay that we continue to occupy and deny representation to millions of people because we have some people who look like them in our Parliament"

 

[hst43102]

"It's okay that we continue to occupy and deny representation to millions of people because we have some people who look like them in our Parliament"

Clarification needed. Which regions are you suggesting are occupied, and which people are denied representation? And are you counting the 2 million Arabs who are Israeli citizens as Palestinians or not?

 

[eldomtom2]

Clarification needed. Which regions are you suggesting are occupied, and which people are denied representation?

The West Bank and Gaza.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Israel is far from perfect, sure... but if I had to choose a country in that part of the world to live in, Israel would win hands down. I know this won't be a popular opinion based on the previous posts- I would hope that some diversity of opinion might at least be tolerated.

I most definitely agree. Democracy, people have rights, freedom of speech and religion, tolerance of LGBTQ etc.

 

[DustyBin]

This is precisely why I keep an open mind on this conflict. What is 'widespread oppression'? Do those people feel , believe that they are or maybe discriminated against compared to ethnic Ukrainians (in for instance opportunities, civil service jobs, government contracts etc) ? You may not think it is oppression, but they may well do. ( a parallel would be, for instance: Do you think there is widespread oppression against white people in South Africa, compared to whether poor white South Africans think there is? )

I can well imagine that some people felt uncomfortable as a result of derussification. However, if there was widespread oppression (according to the accepted definition), I would expect to have seen a lot more support for the Russian invasion among Russian speaking Ukrainians. As it happens, the overwhelming majority don't support it and chose to escape west, away from their would-be "liberators".

I'm not sure you can draw a parallel with the situation faced by white South Africans; they're literally being driven out of their homeland and in some cases murdered if they choose to stay (as happened to a distant relative a few years ago).

Or have you?

Certainly, to a degree!

With regard to the numbers it is notoriously difficult to get a Russian’s true opinion - this is after all a country that has a word meaning ‘official truth’ (правда) as distinguished from ‘real truth’ (истина). However, there have been surveys suggesting over 50% support for the war in Ukraine (see https://www.ft.com/content/8a2ca6bc-72e9-4cc1-890b-7b3b0688d3cc).

As you say, it's difficult to gauge real opinion. If they believe the war is an existential battle for survival however, as opposed to an imperialistic land and resource grab, it's somewhat moot what they think as it's based on lies. And I say that as someone who accepts that Ukraine isn't 100% squeaky clean.

For the avoidance of doubt, I would personally support supplying Ukraine with the weapons they need to defeat Russia, and doing so promptly. But Putin seems to have calculated (correctly) that Western media interest will be fickle (certainly outside those countries with recent experience of Russian domination, and even there we have the case of Hungary). I suspect he thinks the appetite for any economic and political sacrifices on the part of Western electors will fade along with the fading coverage.

I've said this all along. The SMO invasion was a two part gamble. The first part was that Ukraine would immediately collapse both politically and militarily. That was the easy part, the safe bet if you like. The second part was how the West would react. That was less certain, hence the immediate threat of escalation should anyone interfere. The sanctions etc. will have hurt, and the West has been willing to supply increasingly potent weaponry to Ukraine, but ultimately Putin correctly calculated that there would be no direct military intervention. Ironically it was the first part, the "foregone conclusion barely-a-gamble-at-all" part that he catastrophically misjudged.

But the idea that you can bomb people into thinking and acting correctly (i.e. in the way you’d like them to think and act) is dubious, to my mind. Netanyahu thinks he can bomb his way to total victory in Gaza within months. I have my doubts that this is, to use an unfortunate term, the Final Solution. Similarly, Saudi Arabia has been bombing the Houthis (with considerably more ferocity than the US/UK) for some time, but has clearly not been effective in degrading their ability to attack shipping.

I agree in regard to Netanyahu and Palestine. The problem (well, one of them) is that he doesn't appear to be able to look beyond defeating Hamas militarily, which I think is actually possible. Strategically though it's not the solution, and won't bring long term peace and stability. Similarly, I don't think there's a strategy to deal with the Houthis; it's more about sending a message to their backers that we're willing to respond in my opinion.

 

[hst43102]

The West Bank and Gaza.

If you're referring to the settlers in the West Bank, we can both agree that they need to go. Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005.