2023 Israel - Hamas war

[GusB]

The Guardian this evening:



Netanyahu is playing his cards cleverly. Make Biden look weak and incompetent, draw attention away from the fact that he has just sabotaged the possibility of a ceasefire and peace deal, give himself justification for prolonging the war and thus his own political survival, hoping he can string it out long enough for Trump to win in November and join Israel in attacking Iran. You have to give him credit for being an expert manipulator of the situation. What he isn't is a good prime minister for Israel. I think he will go down in history (if there is anyone left to write it) as one of the principal malign influences on world events in this era, alongside Putin and Trump.

I'm looking forward to see him in the Hague. If it was good enough for Milosevic...

 

[SynthD]

Bit late now those same leaders aided and abetted Netanyahu in the first place and enabled all this death and destruction

A few years ago there were several elections with no coalition forming a majority. In the middle of this, a rainbow alliance of many anti-Netanyahu parties, including a pro settler party and for the first time an Arab party, were in charge for a year before collapsing. The current Liklud led coalition is certainly part of the problem, and many of the opposition parties, but not all.

 

[nw1]

The Guardian this evening:



Netanyahu is playing his cards cleverly. Make Biden look weak and incompetent, draw attention away from the fact that he has just sabotaged the possibility of a ceasefire and peace deal, give himself justification for prolonging the war and thus his own political survival, hoping he can string it out long enough for Trump to win in November and join Israel in attacking Iran. You have to give him credit for being an expert manipulator of the situation. What he isn't is a good prime minister for Israel. I think he will go down in history (if there is anyone left to write it) as one of the principal malign influences on world events in this era, alongside Putin and Trump.

Putin, Trump and Netanyahu, the unholy trinity. Obviously Putin is by far the worse of the three, but all three seem to share a common dislike of peace.
If there was an award called the Non-Nobel Prize for the Promotion of War, all three could share it.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If there was an award called the Non-Nobel Prize for the Promotion of War, all three could share it.

I think that award is usually called "Being arrested for violating the Geneva conventions."

 

[nw1]

Netanyahu is playing his cards cleverly. Make Biden look weak and incompetent, draw attention away from the fact that he has just sabotaged the possibility of a ceasefire and peace deal, give himself justification for prolonging the war and thus his own political survival, hoping he can string it out long enough for Trump to win in November and join Israel in attacking Iran. You have to give him credit for being an expert manipulator of the situation. What he isn't is a good prime minister for Israel. I think he will go down in history (if there is anyone left to write it) as one of the principal malign influences on world events in this era, alongside Putin and Trump.

Another comment, does it actually make Biden look weak and incompetent? Or does it make him look stronger? By standing up to Netanyahu, it makes him look stronger, in my view.

One danger for the Democrats is that liberals and left-leaning voters don't bother to vote due to the US displaying too much support of Netanyahu. If Biden starts to keep his distance a bit more, he might stop the potential desertion of left-wing voters from the Democrats, lessening the danger of a Trump win.

 

[DustyBin]

Putin, Trump and Netanyahu, the unholy trinity. Obviously Putin is by far the worse of the three, but all three seem to share a common dislike of peace.
If there was an award called the Non-Nobel Prize for the Promotion of War, all three could share it.

As a point of order, the world was a more peaceful place when Trump was in the White House. You could argue cause and effect of course, but I personally preferred seeing Kim Jong Un walking around the White House with the orange one, as opposed to ballistic missile factories with Sergei Shoigu....

To be clear, Trump is a deeply unsavoury character who should be nowhere near the US presidency, however I'm not sure there is much evidence that he was/is a threat to world peace. The biggest issue as I see it is his unpredictability, especially now when the world is so unstable.

 

[GusB]

I would say that Putin is the clearly most monstrous in terms of acts committed in the sense that he has invaded a country with no provocation whatsoever, but merely because he wants Ukraine to be part of Russia. Putin's Russia is also the country, of the three, that has the most severe restrictions on free speech and, unlike the other two, severe penalties if you dare criticise the presidency. But don't get me wrong, I am no fan of Netanyahu, his apparent treatment of Gazan citizens as mere collateral in his mission to eliminate Hamas, and his attempts to (in my view) silence and slander political opponents by labelling them as anti-Semitic.

While it's difficult to determine who is the most monstrous, I think that Netanyahu is probably the worse of the two; Putin hasn't demolished an entire country. Anyway, it's off-topic for this thread.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

While it's difficult to determine who is the most monstrous, I think that Netanyahu is probably the worse of the two; Putin hasn't demolished an entire country. Anyway, it's off-topic for this thread.

Umm Gaza is 365sq km area occupied by Russia in Ukraine runs into the 10's thousands of Km but granted Ukraine hasn't been overrun.

 

[Cowley]

Can we keep the Ukraine discussion in its own thread please. Thanks.

Russia invades Ukraine

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #49 originally in this thread. Judging from what I'm seeing on the various accounts I follow about this, tonight is going to be a long night for Ukrainians.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[brad465]

Divisions among the Israeli government seem to be surfacing:

Israel's defence minister attacks Netanyahu over Gaza future

There are growing signs of divisions within Israel's war cabinet over who should gover Gaza after the war.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant has voiced open frustration at the government’s failure to address the question of a post-war plan for Gaza.

In a rare public sign of divisions over the direction of the military campaign within Israel’s war cabinet, Mr Gallant urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to declare publicly that Israel has no plans to take over civilian and military rule in Gaza.

“Since October, I have been raising this issue consistently in the Cabinet,” he said, “and have received no response.”

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responded harshly, saying he was "not ready to exchange Hamastan for Fatahstan," in reference to rival Palestinian groups Hamas and Fatah.

Indecision, he warned, would leave only two bad options in Gaza: Hamas rule or Israeli military rule.

Either “would erode our military achievements, lessen the pressure on Hamas and sabotage chances of achieving a framework for the release of hostages,” Mr Gallant said.

Another member of the war cabinet, Benny Gantz - who has disagreed with Netanyahu in the past - agreed with the defence minister: "Gallant speaks the truth. It is the leadership's responsibility to do the right thing for the country at all costs."

Mr Gallant said that the defence establishment, over which he presides, had presented a war plan to the cabinet as early as the night when Israel’s ground invasion of Gaza began last October. He said the plans included proposals “to establish a local, non-hostile Palestinian governing alternative.”

The ICC is seeking arrest warrants for both the leaders of Israel and Hamas:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/may/20/iran-helicopter-crash-live-updates-ebrahim-raisi-iranian-president-search-and-rescue-middle-east-crisis-latest-news

Karim Khan, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, told CNN that he is seeking arrest warrants for Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar and Israel’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, among others, on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

[nw1]

The ICC is seeking arrest warrants for both the leaders of Israel and Hamas:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/may/20/iran-helicopter-crash-live-updates-ebrahim-raisi-iranian-president-search-and-rescue-middle-east-crisis-latest-news

Sounds a good deal. Let both perpetrators be dealt with severely.

EDIT: I see Biden is against the idea (BBC):

US President Joe Biden described the ICC prosecutor's move as "outrageous".

Israel Gaza war: ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Hamas leaders

They are wanted for alleged war crimes committed in the 7 October attacks and the war which followed.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sorry, but Biden is very, very misguided to say this. It's time the US stops turning a blind eye to abuse carried out by the Israeli government or its agents, the armed forces.

Look at this, for example:

Mass graves in Gaza show victims’ hands were tied, says UN rights office

Disturbing reports continue to emerge about mass graves in Gaza in which Palestinian victims were reportedly found stripped naked with their hands tied, prompting renewed concerns about possible war crimes amid ongoing Israeli airstrikes, the UN human rights office, OHCHR, said on Tuesday.

news.un.org

And even if that's what he really thinks, isn't he politically savvy enough to realise that by saying it, he might discourage people from voting Democrat (instead staying at home), letting Trump in? So we have both Israel and the US controlled by unhinged right-wing, bordering on far-right, extremists.

 

[anthony263]

The UK government not happy but unless they can argue these politicians have immunity then they'll have to arrest them.

The situation here would never have happened if the west had grown a pair and put their foot down with Israel. I don't think hammas themselves expected their attack and breach into Israel to go the way it did as they expected to face a lot of Israel defence yet Israel defence forces despite being warned something was being planned really dropped the ball.


I Think the ICC have been pretty fair here holding both to account

 

[Belperpete]

I see that Netanyahu is claiming that the prosecutor is antisemitic. This seems to be the standard reaction to any criticism of Israel. And I suspect one of the reasons that many Western leaders are reluctant to take action.

 

[nw1]

I see that Netanyahu is claiming that the prosecutor is antisemitic. This seems to be the standard reaction to any criticism of Israel. And I suspect one of the reasons that many Western leaders are reluctant to take action.

Western leaders need to be a bit more bold and demand evidence from the Israeli government that the ICC is in fact antisemitic, rather than merely objective.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Also worth pointing out the ICC chief prosecutor, Karim Ahmad Khan, is an Ahmadiyya Muslim. That community faces accusations of heresy from many other Muslim communities and aren't recognised as Muslims under the Pakistani constitution. An Ahmadiyya shopkeeper, Asad Shah, was murdered in 2016 in Glasgow by a Sunni Muslim for refusing to retract his views.

From that perspective, any suggestion that because Khan is a Muslim, he must therefore have a bias towards Hamas, and consequently he must be anti-Semitic, is clearly utter nonsense.

 

[nw1]

From that perspective, any suggestion that because Khan is a Muslim, he must therefore have a bias towards Hamas, and consequently he must be anti-Semitic, is clearly utter nonsense.

Indeed. And first of all, any assumption that all Muslims have a bias towards Hamas is actually real, genuine prejudice even before the specific background of Mr Khan is considered.

Secondly, the Hamas ringleaders also have an arrest warrant out for them too.

It would only look "dodgy" if Netanyahu was being targeted for arrest but not Hamas. But that is not the case.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Also worth pointing out the ICC chief prosecutor, Karim Ahmad Khan, is an Ahmadiyya Muslim. That community faces accusations of heresy from many other Muslim communities and aren't recognised as Muslims under the Pakistani constitution. An Ahmadiyya shopkeeper, Asad Shah, was murdered in 2016 in Glasgow by a Sunni Muslim for refusing to retract his views.

From that perspective, any suggestion that because Khan is a Muslim, he must therefore have a bias towards Hamas, and consequently he must be anti-Semitic, is clearly utter nonsense.

That's some impressive mental gymnastics. The prosecutor "can't be anti-semitic" because he's part of a sect of Islam that other Muslims consider heretic? That conclusion does not follow from the premises.

The prosecutor no doubt considers himself to be a Muslim, what other sects consider him to be is irrelevant. I agree that him being a Muslim (regardless of which branch) does not implicitly make him an anti-semite, though.

All of this is academic of course, as neither Israel nor the Palestinian Authority (nor the USA for that matter) have ratified the treaty that gives the ICC jurisdiction in their territory.

 

[Silenos]

All of this is academic of course, as neither Israel nor the Palestinian Authority (nor the USA for that matter) have ratified the treaty that gives the ICC jurisdiction in their territory.

The court itself has also not made a determination yet - this is simply a request to it, as I understand it. However, should the court agree with the prosecutor’s request, the outcome, while ‘academic’ in the same sense as the warrant against Putin, would still be politically difficult for those countries which are both supporters of Israel and signatories to the ICC. Like, for example, the U.K.

Whatever the outcome it’s probably another nail in the coffin of that ‘rules-based international order’ that the West claims to favour, and which the Global South is increasingly viewing with cynicism.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The prosecutor no doubt considers himself to be a Muslim, what other sects consider him to be is irrelevant. I agree that him being a Muslim (regardless of which branch) does not implicitly make him an anti-semite, though.

Unless of course he is trying to curry favor with the rest of the Muslim world?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unless of course he is trying to curry favor with the rest of the Muslim world?

One would certainly hope that someone in such a position would prioritise legal matters ahead of any private personal preferences. Whether or not they actually do so is another matter...

 

[YorkRailFan]

The International Court of Justice is getting involved now with them ordering Israel halts their offensive into Rafah on the back of a case brought to them by South Africa. Unsurprising, Israel hit back against the ruling.

The UN's top court, the International Court of Justice (ICJ), has issued a dramatic ruling, ordering Israel to "immediately halt its military offensive in Rafah".

It acted in support of a South African application last week which sought a number of measures against Israel, accusing it of stepping up what it says is a genocide.

Presiding judge Nawaf Salam said the situation in Gaza had deteriorated since the court last ordered Israel to take steps to improve it.

Israel has vehemently denied the allegation and signalled it would ignore any order to halt its operation.

Reading the court's ruling on Friday, Nawaf Salam said "Israel must immediately halt its military offensive, and any other action in the Rafah Governorate" which could bring about "the physical destruction" of the Palestinians - alluding to what constitutes genocide under international law.

Israel, he added, must also allow unimpeded access to Gaza to any UN body investigating allegations of genocide.

The ruling also reiterated a requirement for Israel to enable "unhindered provision at scale" of basic services and humanitarian aid for Gaza.

"The humanitarian situation [in Gaza] is now to be characterised as disastrous," the ruling said.

Israel rejected the court's ruling and said its military offensive in Gaza was in line with international law.

"Israel has not and will not carry out military operations in the Rafah area that create living conditions that could cause the destruction of the Palestinian civilian population, in whole or in part," National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi said in a joint statement with the foreign ministry.

War cabinet minister Benny Gantz said Israel would continue its offensive "wherever and whenever necessary - including in Rafah".

Meanwhile, the Palestinian ambassador to the UN, Riyad Mansour, hailed the ruling and called for Israel to abide by it.

"We expect that resolutions of the ICJ be implemented without hesitation," he said. "That's mandatory. And Israel is party to the convention."

Following news of the ICJ ruling, the European Union's top diplomat, Josep Borrell, said the bloc's commitment to the rule of law and its support for Israel "are going to be quite difficult to make compatible".packages, as Rafah crossing remains closed to aid
Aid agencies and the UN say insufficient amounts of aid are reaching people in Gaza, which they say is facing famine.

The UN suspended food distribution in Rafah on Tuesday because of the perilous situation there. Israel says it has made "extensive efforts" to ensure that humanitarian aid is "flowing into Gaza".

Judge Salam also said that the court found it "deeply troubling" that Israeli hostages were still being held by Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza, and called for "their immediate and unconditional release".

Israeli opposition leader Yair Lapid criticised the ruling, calling it an "abject moral failure" that the ICJ did not connect their bombardment of Rafah to the release of the hostages.

South Africa's foreign ministry chief Zane Dangor called the ruling "groundbreaking", alluding to it being the first time the court has made an explicit order to Israel to halt action in a part of Gaza.

Hamas said it welcomed the decision which it said "demands that the brutal Zionist entity [Israel] stop its aggression" in Rafah".24 May, 2024
Minutes after the ruling was delivered, Israel warplanes carried out a series of air strikes on the Shaboura camp in the centre of Rafah.

A local activist at nearby Kuwait Hospital told the BBC that rescue teams in the hospital were unable to reach the site of the raids due to their intensity.

Israel began a long-anticipated offensive in Rafah about three weeks ago, vowing to destroy the remaining Hamas battalions there. It says it believes Israeli hostages are also being held in the town.

The UN says more than 800,000 Palestinians have fled from Rafah since the offensive began. About 1.5 million had been sheltering there from the fighting elsewhere in Gaza.

The hearing is part of a case brought by South Africa to the ICJ in December, claiming Israel was committing genocide in Gaza. That case is ongoing.

Israel began its offensive in Gaza after gunmen from Hamas, the organisation which ruled the territory, attacked Israel on 7 October, killing about 1,200 people and taking 252 others back to Gaza as hostages.

At least 35,800 Palestinians have been killed in the war since then, according to Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry.

Gaza war: ICJ orders Israel to stop Rafah offensive - BBC News

In a dramatic move, the court supported a South African request to get Israel to halt its operation.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[nw1]

The International Court of Justice is getting involved now with them ordering Israel halts their offensive into Rafah on the back of a case brought to them by South Africa. Unsurprising, Israel hit back against the ruling.

Gaza war: ICJ orders Israel to stop Rafah offensive - BBC News

In a dramatic move, the court supported a South African request to get Israel to halt its operation.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think the fact that it won't listen to a UN court shows unambiguously that Israel has a rogue government, and that Western countries must unambiguously condemn its actions. Joe Biden, I'm looking at you in particular.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Joe Biden, I'm looking at you in particular.

Unsurprisingly, Biden is yet to respond to the ICJ's ruling.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Hamas says it has captured Israeli soldiers during fighting in northern Gaza, but Tel Aviv denies the claim.

A Hamas spokesman said that its fighters “lured” a contingent of Israeli soldiers into a tunnel in Jabalia on Saturday and ambushed them.“The fighters withdrew after they left all members of the force dead, wounded and captured,” Abu Ubaida, spokesman for Al Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, said in a recorded message broadcast by Al Jazeera early on Sunday.

The spokesman did not provide any evidence or specify how many soldiers were abducted.

A video released by Hamas shows a bloodied person being dragged along the ground in a tunnel and photos of military fatigue and rifle.
The authenticity of the video or the identity of the person could not be immediately verified.

The Israeli military denied the Hamas claim.

“The IDF clarifies that there is no incident in which a soldier was abducted,” the military said in a statement.The Israeli military previously claimed to have fully dismantled the Hamas command network in northern Gaza.

Hamas announced the capture of Israeli soldiers just hours after reports came that ceasefire talks could be resuming.

Hamas claims capture of Israeli soldiers in northern Gaza fighting

Israeli says ‘there is no incident in which a soldier was abducted’

www.independent.co.uk

Looks like those ceasefire talks just became a lot harder.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The International Court of Justice is getting involved now with them ordering Israel halts their offensive into Rafah on the back of a case brought to them by South Africa. Unsurprising, Israel hit back against the ruling.

Gaza war: ICJ orders Israel to stop Rafah offensive - BBC News

In a dramatic move, the court supported a South African request to get Israel to halt its operation.

www.bbc.co.uk

Good to know that the ICJ stands up against wars and territorial infractions everywhere, as they did so when Russia invaded Ukraine...

Oh, wait.

 

[eldomtom2]

Good to know that the ICJ stands up against wars and territorial infractions everywhere, as they did so when Russia invaded Ukraine...

Oh, wait.

Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On 16 March 2022, the court ruled that Russia must "immediately suspend the military operations" in Ukraine, while waiting for the final decision on the case.[4][5]

 

[Ediswan]

Good to know that the ICJ stands up against wars and territorial infractions everywhere, as they did so when Russia invaded Ukraine...

Oh, wait.

https://www.justsecurity.org/91781/...ations-for-south-africas-case-against-israel/

there is no international court with jurisdiction over the violation of the UN Charter committed by Russia when it invaded Ukraine—and no international court with jurisdiction over the crime of aggression committed by Russian leaders in Ukraine

The ICJ responds to complaints by States. Ukraine has taken other complaints about Russia to the ICJ, with only limited success. There is a lot more detail in that article.

 

[Mogster]

Good to know that the ICJ stands up against wars and territorial infractions everywhere, as they did so when Russia invaded Ukraine...

Oh, wait.

Not much interest in China’s ongoing abuse of the Uyghur population in its North Western territories either.

 

[nw1]

Not much interest in China’s ongoing abuse of the Uyghur population in its North Western territories either.

This sounds like whataboutery to me. Just because the ICJ haven't kept track of all the abuses going on in the world doesn't mean they aren't justified to highlight the abuses perpetrated by the Israeli government against citizens of Gaza.

 

[brad465]

Things are now so bad even Piers Morgan has criticised Netanyahu:

x.com

x.com

The scenes from Rafah overnight are horrific. I’ve defended Israel’s right to defend itself after Oct7, but slaughtering so many innocent people as they cower in a refugee camp is indefensible. Stop this now @netanyahu .