222s for CrossCountry?

[bussikuski179]

So CrossCountry’s HSTs are pretty much life-expired now, being 45 years old. I was thinking about what could replace them, and realised that EMR’s 222s are being freed in a few years time, and some are 7 cars long, same as the HSTs, and they’re similar enough to their current 220s and 221s. Based on my personal experience, they’re also much more pleasant to ride on than the 220/221s. There's 27 of them as well, which would allow XC to add more services. A bonus is that they’d also look really nice in XC livery.

 

[westcoaster]

Not all 27 are 7 car, some are 7 cars some are 5 cars, and 4 are 4 cars long.
I'm sure it has previously been mentioned that there is no compatibility between 222 and 220/221.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be very, very surprised if this was not what happened to EMR's 222s.

 

[PupCuff]

I'm sure it has previously been mentioned that there is no compatibility between 222 and 220/221.

Aye, but whichever operator they were shipped out to there'd be no compatibility with their existing fleet either. 222s and 220s/221s do have the benefit however of being able to mechanically couple for the purposes of rescue and recovery only which would be an advantage if they were sent to XC. You'd just keep your Meridian diagrams separate from your Voyager ones.

 

[DB]

So CrossCountry’s HSTs are pretty much life-expired now, being 45 years old.

Some people on here do like the term 'life-expired'. Reality is they are not and they've just had quite a lot of money spent on them, so are likely to remain for a while yet.

I would have thought that the Avanti 221s were more likely than the 222s to end up with XC if the DfT agrees to extra capacity, on the grounds that they are fully compatible with the existing Voyager fleet, whereas 222s are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aye, but whichever operator they were shipped out to there'd be no compatibility with their existing fleet either. 222s and 220s/221s do have the benefit however of being able to mechanically couple for the purposes of rescue and recovery only which would be an advantage if they were sent to XC. You'd just keep your Meridian diagrams separate from your Voyager ones.

Plenty of TOCs have incompatible fleets, and very rarely do you get an incompatible pair turn up to attempt to couple up. Even Northern, with their notorious random unit generator, seem to manage to keep "195" and "not 195" on the correct diagrams.

 

[Domh245]

I would have thought that the Avanti 221s were more likely than the 222s to end up with XC if the DfT agrees to extra capacity, on the grounds that they are fully compatible with the existing Voyager fleet, whereas 222s are not.

It's quite plausible for both to happen. There's no other obvious home for the 222s (or displaced 221s) once their current TOCs are done with them, so would notionally be available cheaply. By most accounts XC could do with all the capacity they can get

 

[DB]

Plenty of TOCs have incompatible fleets, and very rarely do you get an incompatible pair turn up to attempt to couple up. Even Northern, with their notorious random unit generator, seem to manage to keep "195" and "not 195" on the correct diagrams.

Of course, but it would make far more sense, if the fleet is to be expanded, to do so with compatible vehicles given that the 221s will become available around the same time.

By most accounts XC could do with all the capacity they can get

Undoubtedly - but the DfT is likely to be the problem!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, but it would make far more sense, if the fleet is to be expanded, to do so with compatible vehicles given that the 221s will become available around the same time.

I think realistically (assuming traffic returns to previous levels, which in time for XC I reckon it will as they are very much not a commuter operation even if they do carry the odd train of commuters around Birmingham and Manchester) they will need both fleets, particularly if they want to replace the HSTs. Their overcrowding problem is legendary - they really need to near-double their fleet so everything can run as at least 8-car.

 

[swt_passenger]

Compatibility is always mentioned, but it would no worse that the total incompatibility between 220/221 and HSTs. So as long as they diagram qualified traincrew for them what’s the issue?

 

[Neptune]

This has been mentioned in many other threads previously.

There are 6 x 7 car class 222’s which could replace the 5 x 7 car HST’s thereby freeing up a Voyager to double up elsewhere.

 

[DB]

Compatibility is always mentioned, but it would no worse that the total incompatibility between 220/221 and HSTs. So as long as they diagram qualified traincrew for them what’s the issue?

Because it complicates things still further, especially with a larger fleet, and potentially makes stepping sets up at times of disruption more difficult. Why add further complication than already exists?

 

[Wolfie]

It's not hard at some point to see Cross Country having all of Classes 220-222. Likely some shuffling around of train length, even if that resulted in surplus driving cars, would follow (yes, l am aware that 222 is not compatible with 220/21). I know that there are some issues but could that mean release of the 170s too?

 

[swt_passenger]

It's not hard at some point to see Cross Country having all of Classes 220-222. Likely some shuffling around of train length, even if that resulted in surplus driving cars, would follow (yes, l am aware that 222 is not compatible with 220/21). I know that there are some issues but could that mean release of the 170s too?

No, because as is regularly pointed out 22x are probably complete overkill for the minor XC routes.

 

[Wolfie]

No, because as is regularly pointed out 22x are probably complete overkill for the minor XC routes.

There could be some very short options available, lol, but point taken...

 

[swt_passenger]

Because it complicates things still further, especially with a larger fleet, and potentially makes stepping sets up at times of disruption more difficult. Why add further complication than already exists?

It doesn’t really complicate anything further (than now). So modifying 222 to make them more like 220/221 would be a bonus..

 

[quantinghome]

Because it complicates things still further, especially with a larger fleet, and potentially makes stepping sets up at times of disruption more difficult. Why add further complication than already exists?

XC need more trains from somewhere. So why not the 222s? They may not be able to run in service with the existing stock but nothing else is compatible with the 220/221s either. At least they have equipment in common which makes maintenance easier. The WC 221s and Midland 222s have nowhere else to go, so it's XC or the scrapheap. DfT would be mad to let that happen.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Am I the only one who yearns for the 9 cars to be 9 cars and the rest to be back as 4 cars? Post EMR, that is. Imagine a sensible situation where 6 out of 7 of the 9 cars in use daily have decent restaurant facilities and are capacity-matched to special diagrams from Southampton/Bournemouth and Plymouth/Bristol (or from the north down) and rotate through Derby or Central Rivers? Good Lord. Premier peak trains with proper First Class on the ICXC.

 

[JonathanH]

It's quite plausible for both to happen. There's no other obvious home for the 222s (or displaced 221s) once their current TOCs are done with them, so would notionally be available cheaply. By most accounts XC could do with all the capacity they can get

An alternative suggestion in another thread today appears to be the possibility that EMR keep the 222s for operating Norwich / Nottingham to Liverpool (although I think that has been debunked in previous discussions as not really offering capacity over 158s). If it were true, the 222s would not be available to Cross Country.

Quotes taken from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-to-retain-liverpool-to-nottingham.208023/

More seriously - won't there be rolling stock consequences for this - with suggestions that TPE DMUs might have taken over the Nottingham - Liverpool section if the route had switched to them? And EMR will now need to retain units to operate it of course.

Yes, I spoke to a senior manager earlier and "We'll have to have another look at the fleet plan". I know when the bid for retaining it was put in to cost against TPE's bid that the idea was to use Class 222s (against 68+Mk5 sets). Either way, its much cheaper to train on traction than it is on the route, for drivers its about a 3 month process for the entire route and diversions.

Presumably that just means keeping some 222s within the franchise rather than letting them go off-lease?

Will be interesting at Piccadilly 13/14...

 

[Domh245]

An alternative suggestion in another thread today appears to be the possibility that EMR keep the 222s for operating Norwich / Nottingham to Liverpool (although I think that has been debunked in previous discussions) but if it were true, they would not be available to Cross Country.

Not all of them at least! Seeing as EMR have sized their fleet of 170s for operating Nottingham - Norwich (admittedly, it's not guaranteed that they'll get all those 170s, or indeed that those 170s were quite enough to cover operations without quite a few short formations, etc) that only leaves them needing the units to operate Nottingham-Liverpool. For an hourly 6 hour round trip, they won't need all that many 222s (6+spares), annoyingly, there are only 6x 7 car units, otherwise they'd be well suited on that front!

 

[tbtc]

I can't see any other *TOC* as a long term home for the entire 220/221/222 fleet than XC (ignoring Open Access, because who knows what Open Access will be granted in future)

The internal layouts aren't suitable for most routes with 170s (given the doors etc)

There are already going to be a lot of other 90/100mph units for "Provincial" services in future (Midlands/Welsh 158s, Welsh 175s, Yorkshire 185s etc), and the seating layout/ crumple zone mean that a four/five coach Voyager/Meridian wouldn't offer much of a capacity increase over a three coach Turbostar, so they'd be wasted on something like the ex-Central Trains services

Meanwhile, the fast acceleration required to match current XC diagrams (and the tightly timed paths through bottlenecks, with little margin for error) mean that there's not a great deal else suitable for proper "Cross Country" services, unless you're going to bestow dozens of 80Xs on the franchise, but that seems optimistic.

So, for me, the question is more "when" not "if" or "should". But we all know that the railway has twists and turns - trying to second guess these things doesn't always work!

 

[Wolfie]

I can't see any other *TOC* as a long term home for the entire 220/221/222 fleet than XC (ignoring Open Access, because who knows what Open Access will be granted in future)

The internal layouts aren't suitable for most routes with 170s (given the doors etc)

There are already going to be a lot of other 90/100mph units for "Provincial" services in future (Midlands/Welsh 158s, Welsh 175s, Yorkshire 185s etc), and the seating layout/ crumple zone mean that a four/five coach Voyager/Meridian wouldn't offer much of a capacity increase over a three coach Turbostar, so they'd be wasted on something like the ex-Central Trains services

Meanwhile, the fast acceleration required to match current XC diagrams (and the tightly timed paths through bottlenecks, with little margin for error) mean that there's not a great deal else suitable for proper "Cross Country" services, unless you're going to bestow dozens of 80Xs on the franchise, but that seems optimistic.

So, for me, the question is more "when" not "if" or "should". But we all know that the railway has twists and turns - trying to second guess these things doesn't always work!

That sounds so much like utter common sense that you just know that it will never happen.....

 

[Bevan Price]

Not all of them at least! Seeing as EMR have sized their fleet of 170s for operating Nottingham - Norwich (admittedly, it's not guaranteed that they'll get all those 170s, or indeed that those 170s were quite enough to cover operations without quite a few short formations, etc) that only leaves them needing the units to operate Nottingham-Liverpool. For an hourly 6 hour round trip, they won't need all that many 222s (6+spares), annoyingly, there are only 6x 7 car units, otherwise they'd be well suited on that front!

7 coach 222s would be too long to fit in the platforms between Manchester & Liverpool - and whilst selective door opening might be available, I think it would seriously increase station dwell times.
5 coach 222s have fewer standard class seats than a pair of 158s, which would increase overcrowding if/when traffic returns to pre-Covid levels.

 

[Domh245]

7 coach 222s would be too long to fit in the platforms between Manchester & Liverpool - and whilst selective door opening might be available, I think it would seriously increase station dwell times.

Agreed there that 22x aren't the best suited for the route! That said, I thought EMT used to run 7 cars on the Grand National specials, although I guess there is enough difference between a handful of services on a weekend vs all day every day.

 

[class26]

Not all of them at least! Seeing as EMR have sized their fleet of 170s for operating Nottingham - Norwich (admittedly, it's not guaranteed that they'll get all those 170s, or indeed that those 170s were quite enough to cover operations without quite a few short formations, etc) that only leaves them needing the units to operate Nottingham-Liverpool. For an hourly 6 hour round trip, they won't need all that many 222s (6+spares), annoyingly, there are only 6x 7 car units, otherwise they'd be well suited on that front!

Theres a rumour today that EMR are keeping Liverpool - Norwich so will probably need to keep some 158`s ?

 

[Domh245]

Theres a rumour today that EMR are keeping Liverpool - Norwich so will probably need to keep some 158`s ?

That rumour mentions 222s, which is why it cropped up here! This post has the relevant quotes from the thread about the rumour. 158s would strike me as the better fleet for EMR to keep (although I would probably also suggest that double 170s would be better on the Nottingham-Liverpool services than 158s, but that's getting off topic for this thread!)

 

[Grecian 1998]

The 22X fleet are presumably expensive to run due to being designed for 125mph running at a time when trains were generally getting heavier - Voyagers are notorious for their hefty fuel consumption - and presumably have speed restrictions on certain routes due to their weight. If the DfT want to increase capacity without the cost of any trains, it does seem a no-brainer to cascade unneeded 221s and 222s when there are few routes they're suited to, and few trains XC can utilise effectively on the classic XC routes. A perfect fit really if 800s are off the menu.

A 3 carriage 170 has almost the same seating capacity as a 220 but its doors allow quicker boarding and it must be much more economic to run, even if a lot slower off the blocks. No real point putting 220s on services which 170s can cover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 170 routes need moving to either EMT or WMT, to be honest (along with the 170s, unless an additional order of 196s was placed). They are, unlike the rest of XC, regional expresses, and do not fit it at all well.

 

[37424]

I'm not convinced that 222 will go to XC, 221 more likely 10 sets to effectively replace HST's and 10 sets for increased capacity. All the 4 car sets could be paired up and single 4 car would be replaced by 5 car, bringing in 222 to XC as well especially post covid i think will be seen as overkill by the DFT

 

[Anonymous10]

So CrossCountry’s HSTs are pretty much life-expired now, being 45 years old. I was thinking about what could replace them, and realised that EMR’s 222s are being freed in a few years time, and some are 7 cars long, same as the HSTs, and they’re similar enough to their current 220s and 221s. Based on my personal experience, they’re also much more pleasant to ride on than the 220/221s. There's 27 of them as well, which would allow XC to add more services. A bonus is that they’d also look really nice in XC livery.

If possible I'd want existing routes consolidated and routed such as Cardiff to Nottingham given a proper regional express train of intercity train