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222s for CrossCountry?

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DB

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The 802's were for an initial order of 173 coaches with an option for 150 (total of 323) there's now just over 350 split between First Rail operations (GWR, TPE & Hull Trains).

As such not only an example but an example of the very type of train which would likely

Not relevant to what I asked, though! There have been various examples where contracts have been 'up to' while they arrange how many sets they need. It's not comparable to extending sets already in service.

So to repeat, can you give any recent examples where new build sets have been extended within a few years of introduction, apart from the pendolinos?
 
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Purple Orange

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The 802's were for an initial order of 173 coaches with an option for 150 (total of 323) there's now just over 350 split between First Rail operations (GWR, TPE & Hull Trains).

As such not only an example but an example of the very type of train which would likely be ordered.



Firstly not all 5 coach trains are created equal 22x's circa 260 seats Vs 802's a minimum of 326 seats (that's the equivalent of a 6 coach 22x).

I agree that current rail use can't be used as a model of future rail use (personally I'm of the view that Covid-19 will likely result in more rail use not less as the "business case" for car ownership changes with less day to day travel and more a few times a week and occasional travel meaning that the high up front costs of cars are spread over fewer days, so PAYG travel, like rail, makes more sense) which is why you should look to have the flexibility to order more if you need it but not to be forced to buy what may not be needed.

It also allows the full "base" fleet to be delivered sooner and then extend the units to 7 coaches steady add the extra coaches are delivered.

If we assume a 18 coach/week delivery schedule then a 5 coach fleet would take 17 week, whist a 7 coach fleet would take 23 weeks. Now whilst 6 weeks may not sound a lot of could make the difference between meeting a timetable change or not.

The other thing to consider is that by having an option for more than what's needed, hence why I suggested 200, is that it gives the option to extend much of the fleet to 9 coaches (42 out of 58) if it's found that there's more demand than anticipated.

Likewise it also gives the option to extend some in the TPE fleet and/or the GWR fleet of 802's from 5 to 9 coaches of there was extra demand there.

If it turns out that the 200 extra coaches aren't enough there's a big enough order that the train manufacturer should be willing to consider adding a few more without it costing too much. Even if they don't then you just don't take up the option and have a new 200+ coach order which is large enough to not be too costly.

Either way you have the flexibility that is things don't work out then you're not having trains carrying around lots of fresh air, conversely if passenger growth is huge then you have the option for more than enough units all at be all 7 coaches (equivalent of 8.5 coach class 22x unit, so comparable to a pair units; 4 coach + 5 coach 22x's), maybe even enough to be be 1/3 as 7 coaches and 2/3 as 9 coaches (647 seats vs 589 seats in an 11 coach class 390).

If rail growth is significantly more than you can retain some of the 22x fleet whilst you deliver more coaches, unless there's somewhere else they could be used (and generally the conclusion is that they wouldn't fit elsewhere very well, so chances are that's not much of a problem). However you'd need >10%/year for that to be of great concern. If that's the case then we'll run out of network capacity before we run out of the ability to deliver extra coaches to XC (the new 7 coach fleet would take 6 months to deliver in 3 years time and give +46% more capacity, whilst 10% growth/year would be +33% in the same timeframe).

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it safe to assume that XC will not be getting any brand new fleet, therefore 802s will not be seen in XC livery?

This then leaves us with the possibility of the Avanti voyagers and EMT meridians, which could be available far earlier than any new trains could be manufactured. If those units are cascaded, my point is why bother with reforming coaches, which would leave a number of end coaches sitting redundant? Surely it is better to couple up as many units as possible and utilise the capacity given there is the demand.
 

Meerkat

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it safe to assume that XC will not be getting any brand new fleet, therefore 802s will not be seen in XC livery?
Don’t think it’s safe to assume anything like that anymore. There is the precedence of the unexpected mass extinctions on Anglia and SWT, the unknown future of franchises, and a government wanting to shore up its support (and XC is shiny Express trains that don’t serve London.....)
 

JonathanH

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Don’t think it’s safe to assume anything like that anymore. There is the precedence of the unexpected mass extinctions on Anglia and SWT, the unknown future of franchises, and a government wanting to shore up its support (and XC is shiny Express trains that don’t serve London.....)
The slight difference with Anglia is that the 321s would have needed a substantial rebuild to be suitable for service post-2020 (from the PRM angle) and it wasn't worth the investment. There is not a 'push factor' on the 220/221/222 fleet from the PRM angle. I agree that there is an issue with the power source but a lot of the route doesn't have an agreed schedule for being electrified yet. Extra 22x forms a readily available stop gap.
 

Meerkat

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Putting ‘green’ bi-modes on the route looks so much better than diesels, and covers up for the lack of electrification.
cynical aren’t ?!
 

gingertom

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Putting ‘green’ bi-modes on the route looks so much better than diesels, and covers up for the lack of electrification.
cynical aren’t ?!
The 222s are coming from an electrification project. Cascading the 222s to XC means that the amount of diesel units in service will remain the same overall. With electrics being introduced on EMR the proportion of diesel running on the network goes down. I bet this will be projected as decarbonising. Cynical? You bet!
 

Sweetjesus

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Isn't most class 220, 221 and 222 3-5 cars long. Would it be good idea to extend these sets to 9 coaches? It would mean the redundant driving cabs can be removed.
 

David Goddard

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I would like to see the EMT 222s and Avanti 221s transferred to XC, but I don’t see the need to remodel them and mess on with changing the length of the units.

Surely the sensible approach would be to ensure a minimum of a 7-car train is operating on all intercity routes. This could result in:
  • 6 x 7-car 222s
  • 8 x 10-car 222s (5-car units)
  • 1 x 9-car 222 (5+4)
  • 1 x 8-car 222 (4+4)
  • 1 x 4-car 222 spare
  • 38 x 9-car 221s/220s (5+4)
  • 1 x 10-car 221 (5+5)
This would provide for 55 trains ranging in 7-10 cars in length, with one 4-car unit left spare.


Can see the logic, but this creates a mixed fleet with the 222s which could become quite unflexible and cause problems if certain services are never a consistent length.

If the 222/0s were put back to their original formations (7x9car and 16x4car, they would probably be refurbished anyway) then when put with the Voyagers they could run all 8 or 9 car trains, with the one ten car as suggested above.

34 x 9 car formed 1x 220 and 1x 221 5car.
4 x 9 car formed 1x 221 4car and 1x 221 5car.
1 x 10 car formed 2x 221 5car
7 x 9 car pure 222/0
10 x 8 car formed 2x 222 4car
 

Energy

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Isn't most class 220, 221 and 222 3-5 cars long. Would it be good idea to extend these sets to 9 coaches? It would mean the redundant driving cabs can be removed.
4-7 cars long. 7 cars is the perfect length for XC, enough capacity for growth but not so much that you are needlessly taking around a couple extra carriages. To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if they scrap some of the cab cars in stick the intermediates in other sets to extend them. There isn't enough operators for all the 220s, 221s, and 222s so using the middle cars to extend some of the sets would make the most sense.

Personally I would use the middle cars of all the 222s and the 4 4 car 221s to extend 32 of the 220s to 7 cars long and take on the 20 AWC 221s so the XC ones can be doubled up to provide 10 car services on extra busy services.
 

Wolfie

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4-7 cars long. 7 cars is the perfect length for XC, enough capacity for growth but not so much that you are needlessly taking around a couple extra carriages. To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if they scrap some of the cab cars in stick the intermediates in other sets to extend them. There isn't enough operators for all the 220s, 221s, and 222s so using the middle cars to extend some of the sets would make the most sense.

Personally I would use the middle cars of all the 222s and the 4 4 car 221s to extend 32 of the 220s to 7 cars long and take on the 20 AWC 221s so the XC ones can be doubled up to provide 10 car services on extra busy services.
Does that not assume a level of compatibility that just isn't there between 220/221 and 222?
 

Anonymous10

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I would take the 222s for short term and order class 802s if that isn't done and traffic returns only other trains they could obtain in time would be 175 and 158 which I believe to already have a new prospective owner
 

swt_passenger

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Not relevant to what I asked, though! There have been various examples where contracts have been 'up to' while they arrange how many sets they need. It's not comparable to extending sets already in service.

So to repeat, can you give any recent examples where new build sets have been extended within a few years of introduction, apart from the pendolinos?
LO 378s...
 

Energy

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So to repeat, can you give any recent examples where new build sets have been extended within a few years of introduction, apart from the pendolinos?
a few battery cars are getting into a few 331s to turn them from 3 cars to battery 4 cars.
 

Purple Orange

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Can see the logic, but this creates a mixed fleet with the 222s which could become quite unflexible and cause problems if certain services are never a consistent length.

If the 222/0s were put back to their original formations (7x9car and 16x4car, they would probably be refurbished anyway) then when put with the Voyagers they could run all 8 or 9 car trains, with the one ten car as suggested above.

34 x 9 car formed 1x 220 and 1x 221 5car.
4 x 9 car formed 1x 221 4car and 1x 221 5car.
1 x 10 car formed 2x 221 5car
7 x 9 car pure 222/0
10 x 8 car formed 2x 222 4car

Actually yes, this seems a better outcome.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Does that not assume a level of compatibility that just isn't there between 220/221 and 222?
The incompatibility thing is often cited, but in theory it isn't a show-stopper. Am I right in thinking that the main obstacle is to do with software? If so, that really ought to be relatively simple to solve. After all, Grand Central and others (including XC IIRC) had loco-hauled mk3s rewired to take HST hotel power, and those vehicles were around the same age as the 22x fleet is now.
 

Wolfie

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The incompatibility thing is often cited, but in theory it isn't a show-stopper. Am I right in thinking that the main obstacle is to do with software? If so, that really ought to be relatively simple to solve. After all, Grand Central and others (including XC IIRC) had loco-hauled mk3s rewired to take HST hotel power, and those vehicles were around the same age as the 22x fleet is now.
As l understand it the 220/221s had an Alsthom TMS installed for improved compatibility with Virgin's Pendlini. I'm unsure if the differences are solely software or if there is hardware involved too.

I believe that Mk3s are essentially "dumb" hence your comparison is irrelevant. It is remarkable how many people who have limited involvement with software always seem to think that it should be "easy". Repeated delays to numerous programmes due to software issues should have long since put that to bed, but....
 

The Ham

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As l understand it the 220/221s had an Alsthom TMS installed for improved compatibility with Virgin's Pendlini. I'm unsure if the differences are solely software or if there is hardware involved too.

I believe that Mk3s are essentially "dumb" hence your comparison is irrelevant. It is remarkable how many people who have limited involvement with software always seem to think that it should be "easy". Repeated delays to numerous programmes due to software issues should have long since put that to bed, but....

Indeed, the number of times that there's been software issues on the computers at my work and they are PC's running Windows with software developed to run on Windows. Often with it working fine on one but not another.
 

61653 HTAFC

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As l understand it the 220/221s had an Alsthom TMS installed for improved compatibility with Virgin's Pendlini. I'm unsure if the differences are solely software or if there is hardware involved too.

I believe that Mk3s are essentially "dumb" hence your comparison is irrelevant. It is remarkable how many people who have limited involvement with software always seem to think that it should be "easy". Repeated delays to numerous programmes due to software issues should have long since put that to bed, but....
I appreciate the correction and comments. Though that's the thing with software- it should be simple to upgrade or modify or replace, doesn't necessarily mean it will be. But as with so many things, if you throw enough money and expertise at a problem like this, it really ought to be soluble. How much money and expertise would be needed, and whether that expense and time is worth it, is of course another thing altogether.

The problem with online fora is that it isn't always easy to get across the subtleties of what you're trying to say- I've worked through enough system upgrades to know that they aren't as simple as you think they'll be, and that anything that can go wrong will go wrong somewhere... especially if the people working with the system through the upgrade aren't the people who designed it. My point was that these things ought to be relatively simple, not that they are in fact simple. On paper, you'd decide which TMS is superior and install that system across the fleet, but i appreciate that's a deliberate oversimplification and there's plenty of issues that could throw up.

Ultimately it comes down to £££ though: pretty much any problem is soluble if you throw enough money at it... particularly if it isn't your money! :lol:
 

Wolfie

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I appreciate the correction and comments. Though that's the thing with software- it should be simple to upgrade or modify or replace, doesn't necessarily mean it will be. But as with so many things, if you throw enough money and expertise at a problem like this, it really ought to be soluble. How much money and expertise would be needed, and whether that expense and time is worth it, is of course another thing altogether.

The problem with online fora is that it isn't always easy to get across the subtleties of what you're trying to say- I've worked through enough system upgrades to know that they aren't as simple as you think they'll be, and that anything that can go wrong will go wrong somewhere... especially if the people working with the system through the upgrade aren't the people who designed it. My point was that these things ought to be relatively simple, not that they are in fact simple. On paper, you'd decide which TMS is superior and install that system across the fleet, but i appreciate that's a deliberate oversimplification and there's plenty of issues that could throw up.

Ultimately it comes down to £££ though: pretty much any problem is soluble if you throw enough money at it... particularly if it isn't your money! :lol:
The last para sounds about right... Not something HMT are famous for doing though....
 
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